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Taizu Lilith
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2007.02.22 00:57:00 - [151]
 

The reason why seeding is a terrible idea is it spits on the face of all of us who are scientists... except for the very small number who have won the lottery and made a killing on their T2 BPO already. This isn't a small part of the community, but a large one I know. And people do do stuff for the RP, they grind faction for it, they do R&D missions for it (which suck compared to normal missions, and don't make you ISK as far as I have seen).

Many many people have done that... to say that is all a waste and you can just buy the T2 BPOs on the market would be spitting on mine and every other person who has put work into R&D's face.

Miranda Duvall
Gallente
Saberick Interest and Development
Free Traders of EVE
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:00:00 - [152]
 

We can all agree thet eve would be better off if the T2 BPO's didnt exist at all, but most T2 BPO's currently in game are no longer in the hands of their winner, but were bought for mucho iskies. Because of this you cant just take the BPOs away from their current owners.

One thing you COULD do is this:

Most BPO's are given a value of the profit they can make in 1 year.
If you were to convert every T2 BPO into a T2 BPC with the amount of runs on it that you could build in a year in a POS, then slowly but surely the BPO's will disappear from the game without taking away the isk people spent buying the BPO.

I have personally bought and sold some T2 BPO's and I wouldn't feel shafted by such a solution.

Shayla Etherodyne
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:02:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: umop 3pisdn

My main issue with invention is not neccesarilly the skill requirements... but the high sec centralised RP system... should it not be possible for a large corp or alliance with POS's/outposts to create their own RP? (I dont mean to give them a massively insane number per day... but really... missions suck... there has to be a better way...) perhaps the option for alliances to gain remote access to agents in return for some kind of archeological treasure found in our space in 0.0...


Most of the best R&D agents are in low sec, not high.
My alt has 5 Boundless Creation agents, and 4 are in low sec, almost every day he run in a system controlled by OctoberSnow pirate corporation to to do a mission for that agent.

Originally by: umop 3pisdn

Or low sec... exploration is already helping the pirates and carebears in lowsec by increasing the cash to be had as well as the number of people around... if CCP intends low sec to be a deadzone/ghetto (not a bad idea given the shiny carebearness of high sec being seperated from the sweetness of 0.0) then why not pump even more into exploration in the hope of eventually replacing the majority of missions with player based events such as exploration.



There is an important difference:
missions - you can do them when you want them
explorations - you can do them when you find them

So when you want to do a corporate event for small corporation, running a big level 4 mission can be programmed, finding the right exploration site when the players are on line is a roll of the dices.

Kesh McCall
Caldari
Interplanetary - Expeditions
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:11:00 - [154]
 

As long as the BPO's stay unchanged in the game, invention will do no good to anyone.
The BPO holders will allways be able to produce cheaper and more efficent then any copy made through invention.
Also is invention in its current form time consumable and material consumeable, while the BPOs .. well they are just there and print ISK.

If you want to change from BPO's to BPC's ther has to be made a change.
Will it be fair ...
no of course not ...
what ever you do you will make 50 % of the people involved very unhappy.
Either thoose who allready have the BPO's or thoose that will never get them.

There was once the infinite run BPC's, you changed them later in the game to be max run ones. Personaly i lost hundreds of million ISK at that time, which was ALOT of money at that time aswell considering you couldnt earn so much money through mission running, ratting or T2 production.
Now if you follow the same route, and make it so that the T2 BPO's cant be copied or researched anymore, and anounce that in like 1 or 2 years the BPO's will decay into max run BPC's, would that work out ?

I see only 1 fair possibiltie to the whole situation,
1) release all T2 BPO's into the open market
2) make invention work on T2 and dont implement any T3 BPO ever

This would be a complete overhaul of the situation but i think the only "Fair" solution for everyone.

Gabrielle Black
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:12:00 - [155]
 

I'd just like to point out that while the opinion of someone who owns a tech 2 BPO is almost certainly biased because they own one, so is the opinion of someone who doesn't, for exactly opposed reasons.

CCP, please keep this in mind when making any decisions, and realize that NOBODY is going to have an unbiased opinion on this.

31i73
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:28:00 - [156]
 

Figures, just when I went to researching it becomes useless Sad

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:28:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: HankMurphy on 22/02/2007 01:25:45
Originally by: Gabrielle Black
I'd just like to point out that while the opinion of someone who owns a tech 2 BPO is almost certainly biased because they own one, so is the opinion of someone who doesn't, for exactly opposed reasons.


no, not really...

take someone like me for example. i have no desire to own a bpo. none. i pvp, when i'm outta isk i go rat for a few days and the cycle continues. just because i dont have one doesn't mean i hold a bias towards bpo owners. But i can look w/ both eyes and see the major flaws in the system.

logic points me to the conclusion that BPOs should not be and should have never been, not a personal bias.

now, if i DID have bpo possibly worth multiple billions, i would be biased and i admit i'd be arguing to keep them! but the fact is, there is no logic behind any kind of T2 reform if we keep current BPO's in place.

Its the fundamental flaw that has placed us in the position we are now. Its not so much how they handed out t2 (lottery) that was ever the big issue. Its WHAT they gave away in the lottery that landed us here today (ultimate, unlimited, t2 power).
--------------
and in reply to another post, yes it would be totally fair if someone bought a bpo for Xbillion and it was eventually converted to a high run BPC. thats the way it works. no one guarentees anyone an items worth in this game. What if t2 was just seeded? Same thing, your investment will have fallen through (hopefully your making some good isk off that investment now... i imagine you are if you were risking multiple billions for it)

note how i said risK? as in 'vs reward'...you took a signifigant risk shelling out billions for a t2 bpo. i'm sorry if ppl think that was 'guarenteed isk' but that alone is pretty indicative of the problems w/ the t2 market.

its all part of the game. Nothing in eve is guarenteed, everone should know that by now. Its not only illogical to think so, but its rediculous to base an argument on when we talking about actually fixing this system.

Broska
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:35:00 - [158]
 

For the love of god just make T2 BPO's Purchaseable on the open market with a high cost to stop the market being flooded. i.e. 1bn+ a BPO.

The whole point of EVE is that it's a sandbox type game, having the BPO's Restricted means that your taking away from the core of what makes this game great.

When T2 first came out it was somthing "special" that not many people could use let alone buy, however we've now got to the point where T2 is the norm. So why not simply make it normal, like the rest of the market that works brilliantly.

Gut Punch
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:36:00 - [159]
 

The only people who will benifit this change will be the established corps who already have BPOs.

CCP needs to go to Economics 101.Rolling Eyes Cutting supply with the same or increased demand will cause the price to rise through the roof.

Either change all BPOs into BPCs or increase the BPO Lottery spawn.

Ishmael Hansen
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:44:00 - [160]
 

Kieron, after reading the blog and all the urgency with this change it makes me think that 5 bpos weren't the only ones spammed to bob, and you mean to keep them, but I'll get over it.

Now my personall thoughts, the lotery is a crappy system and I've been whinning bout this isk-printes forever, even so I wasted time doing missions untill I could use a r&d agent, then I payed 40m for the skill to use more then 1, and spent all the time trainning science skills that are pretty much useless, been gathering rp's for almost 3 years and never got lucky.

My thoughts about invention, not worth it. Spending unimaginable ammount of hours gathering all the stuff needed for it, and in the end have a chance based to get a couple of copies. And I'm not even talking about the high end ships and mods, a HML II costs 136k isk to build, don't think it's fair that I have to spend 2 years gathering components and farming plexes to get a bpc of a module that a tech 2 owner can afford to build by killing a cruiser in a 0.5 system in 20 sec, I can easier gather isk to pay the overpriced 10m (for the same module that costs 136k to build), then to bother to try and invent it.

This will only keep the isk-printers in the tech 2 owners already and give time sinks for the regular players, which will lead to the owners having all the time to pvp while general people have to carebear to use tech 2 mods. Keeping the Alliance hegemony.

Think it was in a TomB's blog that I read about an offer system being developed to r&d, too bad it went to regular agents instead, that way would actually be worth to do the r&d missions, this way is just bs.

Either make invention reflect the ACTUAL price of the modules or don't even bother, fix the lag instead.

Melwitax
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:54:00 - [161]
 

I haven't read this whole thread so please forgive me if I'm repeating what someone said earlier, but the problem with invention is that it depends on research stations, a very finite commodity in Eve unless you've been around for a long time or your corp is large enough to afford private facilities. I like invention, but the lottery at least gives newer players at least a shot at being able to build high end items.

Gabrielle Black
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:55:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: HankMurphy
Edited by: HankMurphy on 22/02/2007 01:25:45
Originally by: Gabrielle Black
<snip>


no, not really...

take someone like me for example. i have no desire to own a bpo. none. i pvp, when i'm outta isk i go rat for a few days and the cycle continues. just because i dont have one doesn't mean i hold a bias towards bpo owners. But i can look w/ both eyes and see the major flaws in the system.

logic points me to the conclusion that BPOs should not be and should have never been, not a personal bias.

now, if i DID have bpo possibly worth multiple billions, i would be biased and i admit i'd be arguing to keep them! but the fact is, there is no logic behind any kind of T2 reform if we keep current BPO's in place.

Its the fundamental flaw that has placed us in the position we are now. Its not so much how they handed out t2 (lottery) that was ever the big issue. Its WHAT they gave away in the lottery that landed us here today (ultimate, unlimited, t2 power).
--------------
and in reply to another post, yes it would be totally fair if someone bought a bpo for Xbillion and it was eventually converted to a high run BPC. thats the way it works. no one guarentees anyone an items worth in this game. What if t2 was just seeded? Same thing, your investment will have fallen through (hopefully your making some good isk off that investment now... i imagine you are if you were risking multiple billions for it)

note how i said risK? as in 'vs reward'...you took a signifigant risk shelling out billions for a t2 bpo. i'm sorry if ppl think that was 'guarenteed isk' but that alone is pretty indicative of the problems w/ the t2 market.

its all part of the game. Nothing in eve is guarenteed, everone should know that by now. Its not only illogical to think so, but its rediculous to base an argument on when we talking about actually fixing this system.


Anyone who uses tech 2 or hopes to is going to have some bias. Anyone who bothered to read the blog after the first paragraph has some interest in the topic, and therefore bias.

I know somebody who just recently got a tech 2 bpo. He was very pleased. He's looking at making somewhere near 40 million per month from it. Is changing that to a BPC fair to him? No, not really, not after spending months if not years on R&D, and considering the amount of work involved in producing the item for less than he could make mining trit for a week.

People complain now that invention isn't worth it on some items. Well, guess what? Some items aren't worth owning the BPO for either. Wait to see what invention does to the prices of the overpriced stuff before jumping to conclusions. As far as the underpriced stuff, they simply won't be produced at all if the BPOs go away. So what do you do when you realize that the only thing you can fit in that last high slot is a 75mm gatling II? Invent it yourself? Not likely, not when the value of the datacores when used for a 150mm would be FAR higher, no matter what the actual price of datacores is at the time. You'd be spending as much on a single gun as you would for a whole set of better guns.

The values of tech 2 BPOs were set by players, not CCP, and once invention really gets going, tech 2 BPO values are going to plummet. People seem to think that the values of the BPOs are going to go up? I don't see why, not when the price of the end item is going to be set by inventors, not BPO owners. The actual difference in profit can easily be set by CCP if they judge that the prices are too high for a given item, or that the BPO owners are making too much. All they have to do is increase the base number of runs or reduce the number of datacores needed or increase the base success rate. When considering buying a BPO, people look at how much profit they could make off it in a given timeframe, and invention is going to severely impact that for the better.

Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.22 01:59:00 - [163]
 

Ok, quite few issues here.

1. Existing T2 BPOs.
--------------------

You can't just remove them from the game, without having a 'backup' plan (obviuosly :).

Basically, if they're all gone, noone is going to invent 80% of T2 modules, because they're not worth inventing.

If you do want to remove existing T2 BPOs, then R&D agents could hand out T2 BPCs (instead of BPOs, as it is now), to make sure T2 gear remains available.

So, you get 10-run Vagabond BPC. You use it, then you either invent it or wait to see when you'll get lucky again. With BPCs, many more people would be involved in T2 production (since BPCs would be handed out very often, in order to 'substitute' the lack of BPOs).

More people would get BPCs and chance to produce T2 gear, and less people will whine about T2 lottery/production/prices.

Obviuosly, whining power of T2 BPO holders has to be taken into consideration in this case. Convert BPO into BPC that can produce T2 item for a year (364-run of T2 cruiser, if it takes a day to build one - etc, etc).

2. Datacores (prices, availability)
-----------------------------------

First of all, make it possible to obtain datacores (from agent) remotely. It is silly to expect people to clonejump from 0.0 to empire, to get datacores (and waste rest of the day), and keep repeating it. I presume there would be more datacores on market, if people would be able to obtain them remotely.

In any case, whatever the solution is after T2 BPO lottery is 'dead', more datacores should start appearing on the markets, thus lowering the prices (and possibly helping with one part of invention).

You could, possibly, give out datacores as rewards for R&D agent missions, instead of 'twice the daily RPs' reward. But you'll see if it's fit, after you do the math, I guess.

3. Number of runs on invented BPCs
----------------------------------

Well, this is the main problem with invention, at the moment. It is simply not worth invention anything except few modules that can be sold for insane price. I mean, will anyone ever bother inventing T2 75mm rails, with current system? Nope. You can buy 100 75mm Rails II, on market, for price of 1 datacore.

I guess the part of the problem is that CCP doesn't want to 'overload' the T2 market, by giving 100-run BPCs for mods. However, because of that, only few mods are actually invented. Catch 22. Only way to make invention of others mods worth it is to reduce datacore prices (and increase availability) drastically.

Or you could do the math magic, and decide number of runs for invented BPC based on average market price, etc, etc. That might complicate things too much, though.

4. Decryptors
-------------

Make them available via R&D agents, for RPs too. Or make it possible to use them more than once. They're just not worth using it for low-end T2 mods, even if you'd get datacores for free.

5. Have faction/officer spawns drop T2 BPCs
-------------------------------------------

Yeah, insane idea, I know.

But, for the love of God, instead of damn tags/ammo, have them drop T2 BPC Laughing

Sinnbad Mayhem
Posted - 2007.02.22 02:30:00 - [164]
 

I read the blog twice, and the amount of complicated things you guys want to do amazes me. Yes, the lottery system is broken. Yes, BPOs are just silly.

Yes, you need to listen to us more.

Make every BPO = BPC. Make new agent reward BPCs.

Let me repeat that:

NO MORE BPOs. BPCs only. Cool

It just seems that you are making things alot more complicated when it really doesnt need to be.

And removing bounties from NPCs? Shocked I hope your posting drunk as I have done many times, because thats just ghey...but another post. Evil or Very Mad


Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.02.22 02:31:00 - [165]
 

What if failed t2 invention attempts didn't destroy everything but instead gave you appropriate named item BPOs?

In this way you could try for invention at if you didn't get the t2, there would be a consolation prize, making trying invention less of al all or nothing proposition and giving CCP lots of control over how much of whatever gets thrown out on to the market.

(This plan obviously doesn't so much work for ships where the named versions are faction ships)

Personally, I am in favour of giving the market more agency in the prices of t2 items. Notice that HACS are ridiculously profitable? Plow some ISK into inventing them. Makes good sense to me.

Revan Ano
Terra Rosa Militia
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.02.22 02:31:00 - [166]
 

If you remove the introduction of new T2 BPO's that are efficent, then you need to adjust Invention so that you can achieve efficent BPC's. Even keeping the existing T2 BPO's can be alright should you allow the Invention efficency to range from better than base to worse than base.

To tell you the truth I had not bothered taking the tutorial on Invention yet. If it's like most other information areas from CCP, it's lacking in explanation as to what all is required to succeed. From the posts of Inventors complaints I take it that stumbling onto the right recipe for success is a long and frustrating process. This would need to be changed should Invention become the sole source of future T2.

Nate D
Hell's Rejects
The Council.
Posted - 2007.02.22 02:33:00 - [167]
 

Yeah I'm actually VERY against this. I spent months training skills and levels to use research agents to their FULLEST extent in the hopes that one day I would get a T2 BPO. I would understand if this move was made for the release of T3 equipment and ships but I think that it is unfair for those who don't have the Blueprint Originals and will never get one if this is put into place. The only way to make this fair is to turn all BPOs into BPCs or keep handing them out...

I think that coming up with a new system to hand out BPOs is a good idea... maybe an "auction" type system using RP instead of isk.

This implementation will also make me cry Crying or Very sad... don't make me cry.
-Nate

Shmeghmar
Posted - 2007.02.22 02:34:00 - [168]
 

I always thought it would be a sign of the apocalypse if I ever said this but...

You could really learn alot from the modern pharmaceuticals industry. IRL if you have a patent on a drug the patent is temporary, it goes for a number of years then the owner is obliged to provide details of its structure and production to its competators.

Further still if the critical need exceeds the company's ability to produce the needed medacine the FDA revokes the patent after a time period should the initial owner be unable to find a suitable partner to meet the global need.

This keeps the market flowing with affordable gineric medicine, while allowing only BRIEF monopolies on certain drugs for the sake of promoting the development of future medacine. In a sense only the newest items are private property while the tried and proven items are public domain so that everyone is assured of an adequate supply of affordable items.

Relevant or not, I've always been of the mindset that only the newest items should have any degree of a monopoly to them.

After a while everything should be more accessable. It keeps the producors striving for the bleeding edge to be proffitable, and allows anyone to come into the game should they have the motivation to compete.

Toyminator
Jamnation
Posted - 2007.02.22 03:01:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Toyminator on 22/02/2007 03:02:50
The problem is, CCP is most likely stuck in a sunken cost fallacy in regards to T2 and Invention. They've already expended so much effort (yes, some would say "LAWLZ" to this) into the systems that they'd rather just stick to it instead of finding a better or simpler solution.

Personally, I'm all for R&D agents having BPC-for-RP stores. Seems to be the simplest way of having a self-correcting market that can react somewhat fluidly to trends and changes.

Unfortunately, this would be way too simple and elegant a solution and c'mon people, there's already been a lot of Dev-cycles spent on the Invention and current T2 BPO implementation/interaction so we should stick with 'em!!!

Rolling Eyes

The added side-bonus to all of this that not many have considered is that it shifts the pricepoint choke away from the T2 producer and squarely into the laps of the T2 component suppliers.

Think about it: Everyone used to rage about how they couldn't affect T2 producers regarding pricing in the least - mainly because demand was still high enough to where any boycots would be ignored anyways. You could glare at the T2 producer menacingly in a station somewhere, but that was about it.

So, if the pricepoint choke moves to T2 component suppliers...well, you can always go blow up their moon mining operations, interfere with their reaction making etc.

Oh wait, this would make too much sense.

Then again, I wonder who out there has brains enough to realize the true intent and meaning of these two potentially highly controversial blogs? I bet not many, so the blogs are working as intended. Laughing

stormyfs911
Minmatar
Blind Panik
Posted - 2007.02.22 03:17:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Kern Blackash
" Trust. You have lost faith in the lottery and we should address that."

Who has lost faith in the lottery? Lottery's are random, of course those who lose are upset. I trust CCP's internal affairs division much more than any of the ideas expressed in that blog. Changing the current system of Tech II bpo distribution in the name of earning trust is a sham. This issue has nothing at all to do with trust. Please come up with a better reason for changing the current system of Tech II bpo distribution than "trust", or leave it as is. I'll gladly roll the dice with the rest of them for my chance at a Tech II bpo. Most of those upset at the current system are the ones who haven't won yet or those too lazy to train up for the requirements to start earning RP's. There is no fair way to change what you have already implemented. Those playing the game longer who have earned a Tech II bpo, whether thru luck or purchase, should not be penalized because the unwashed masses are whining about how unlucky they are. Don't change a thing regarding the Tech II lottery. It's fine the way it is.


OMFG... CCP, I demand you employ this person.
Hurrah for people with their head screwed on straight.

The people that want their T2 BPOs should have to work for them... Whether that means 'grinding' the R&D missions, or endlessly spamming out probes in the hope of a half decent exploration effort that hasn't already been ****d so they can invent their requested BPC.
The lottery is random, you can specify which field, but not exactly which print. Invention lets you pick and choose, so you can tailor it to your skillset, the market's needs or half a dozen other variables.
Think of the poor bar stewards that spent all their RPs on something like a Bloodclaw Rage missile or whatever, and laugh as you fly past in your HAC.

Keep the lottery, I'd prefer to take my chances for free, instead of pouring a shedload of cash down the plughole.

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.02.22 03:35:00 - [171]
 

Hmm.

1) I agree with the person that the urgency in this suggests it wasn't just 5 crappy T2 BPOs given out

2) If you leave the BPOs in, NOTHING will change.
BUT
If you do this, T2 will fail. Why? Because without a BPO the effort to moon-mine etc simply isn't worth it.

All in all I think its good you're trying to fix it, but it's also a possible turning point for Eve if done badly.

10bears
Posted - 2007.02.22 03:48:00 - [172]
 



Limit the time a T2 BPO can be owned buy a character. Also do not allow a character to just buy that same BPO if it pops up in contracts for a predetermined amount of time. Lets say a character can own one T2 BPO of one type for three months out of the year.

If CCP really wants to regain "Trust" then get these T2 BPOs circulating. Let all of EVE's players have access to them.

Invention is showing favoritism to 0.0 by components that come from there only.

Trust?













Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:06:00 - [173]
 

I have to strongly disagree with the people that want to convert all the BPO to BPC..

This would basicly make the last year and a bit totaly a waste of my time. I have had several R&D agents for years now (i think they are all 190k+ RP now) and I have never gotten a T2 BPO.

I managed to finally save up and get into freighter MFG, with the profits from that i have managed to sc**** together the 2bn for a Veld mining crystal 2 BPO...

This is not the huge isk printing press people think it is. I am making maybe 50k isk per crystal so it is going to be a long time to earn a profit... I don't mind being in it for the long haul, but if you convert this toa 1000 run bpc I have lost 1.9bn isk.

Some how I don't think it is right that ccp with a wave of the magic want makes 2 years of struggle into nothing! I count this BPO as a long term asset and since I am all about MFG, mining, exploration, trading and could care less about anything less than 0.5 sec rated system. This basically tells me that the enjoyment I have gotten out of eve by competing economically was wasted. If they want to convert my bpo to a bpc, I expect to see a couple of bn isk appear in my wallet at the same time!

The only way i can see to make T2 not as expensive is to take a ratio of the adverage sell cost to the base cost and then based on that ration release X number more BPO into the market. Basicly make HAC bpo until the price of the hac is within a acceptable level of the base cost. Just keep pumping out BPO (10 a day) until you get the price you want.

When it comes down to it I don't think that invention is ready for the Prime time. There is no way to meet the demand for goods through invention. lets take the small shield extender 2 that my corp produces. There is a daily market for about 200 of these a day. The number of producers is very low. If invention was required to meet this demand then i think it would fail.

A) right now there is a huge surplus of RP out there,allot of people have been building RP for years. When that surpluses runs out then the prices will sky rocket again. because there won't be enough data cores.

B) The time involved means that the number produced will drop dramatically as you have to not only invent the bpc (a chance based system) and then mfg the goods and sell them. As the loto shoes a chanced based system is a bad design. This will also add allot to the time investment for the item and drive the price up. I have a gut feeling this will drive allot of people out of production because of the hassle.

C) unless the number of runs is high per BPC it really isn't worth the time, the empire based copy labs are backed up several weeks in most cases. and the POS are borked for alliances to use to make copies. Let alone the faction requirements/ fuel cost to run a lab at a POS.

When you get right down to it invention is useless for anything more than one offs for personal use or making one for a friend. There is no viable way to set up a scheduled production where you can guarantee that you can produce X a week and sell them, with out this stability it would be impossible to build a business model on a chance. It is like saying "I am going to feed my family by playing blackjack at the a casino".

There is also allot of data errors yet, for instance you can do invention on T3 battle ships, you get what? nothing, it is resource sink!

Darkon Icensun
Gallente
Synergy Evolved
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:21:00 - [174]
 

1: Stop the lottery.

2: Put T2 BPOS on the market for everyone that can afford them. Just like regular BPOS.

3: Let the current owners of the existing T2 BPOs keep them. (They worked hard for them.)

4: Stop the ability to make copies of T2 BPOs

5: Keep invention as an alternative for T2 BPCs

This opens the T2 market to everyone that can afford the BPOs and components. It stops the T2 monopolies. Plus it gives a reason to continue with research and invention.

Udoshi
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:27:00 - [175]
 

I'm of the mind that invention shouldn't be a replacement for the lottery. Sure, the lottery sucks balls, but so does invention right now. You need to pay out the ears for a data interface, or heaven forbid, these cosmos drop skillbooks that cost even more than the data interfaces themselves to make one.

Invention shouldn't be a replacement. It should run alongside the lottery with a few tweaks to make it more managable. The lottery itself needs more info, such as info on when a BP for a specific are is going to be generated(timer style), what the odds are of you getting it with your current RP and a general interface for it. It should also be periodiocally re-seeded.

If CCP wants invention to be more user-friendly, as seems to be the case, the up front cost of getting into the inventing game needs to be lowered and the process simplified.

Inventing
1)Hey! look! I'm spending 30 mil on datacores on a gamble!
Each run should take one datacore, not eight or 20. Larger ships should take 2 for cruisers, 3 for battlecruisers or something like that. Also, there's many different research areas, and you can't rely on getting the ones you need from the exploration sites.
2)You want how much up front?
Looking at prices for the interfaces, they're about 200+ mil each. More for the ship interfaces. Thats a lot of money to just get into the casino, and there's 12 to choose from. Or, you can make your own. Except that the encryption skillbooks are going for more than the interfaces now, and you need those to make the interfaces themselves. Maybe those shouldn've been added to the exploration site drop tables when the drop rates were boosted.
3) Run away!! So, you've spend all this money and now the runs are limited to 10 or so if you successfully invent something? How much of a profit is that, considering the costs to build it? Runs need to be worthwhile.
4) Eureka factor!
When try to invent something, there should be an incredibly small chance of generating a genuine ME0 PE0 T2 BPO. The one in a million factor.

Just a few thoughts. I may or may not have accidentally double posted this.

Radica
Gallente
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:44:00 - [176]
 

How about addressing the problem that has been causing a large number of players to disconnect when idle? I have invested quite a few skillpoints and a lot of isk in probes (before the patch) that has been completely wasted because I constantly disconnect before I get a scan result.

There are multiple threads in the known issues area of these forums filled with extremeley frustrated players regarding this issue and this heightened focus on exploration will, for me at least, exacerbate the frustration.

Before I get any replys with "upgrade your router firmware" or other such nonsense, please be aware that this problem is a post-revelations patch one. I and other in my situation did not have this problem before the patch.

P.S. The irony of a patch that brings in exploration probing and simultaneously breaks it is not lost on me...

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:47:00 - [177]
 

This is a stupid idea, plain and simple. Unless the T2 BPOs are going, then this idea just sucks. Buff invention anyway though, since it DESPERATELY needs it still.

Jas Dor
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.02.22 04:53:00 - [178]
 

Are you stupid???? One item has become extremely valuable so now you're going to stop introducing more. This will cause the price and value of T2 BPO's to skyrocket in value. Do we really want to see T2 ammo BPO's going fo 50 Billion.

For the love of god just let invention produce T2 BPO's, make it hard but doable.


Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2007.02.22 05:20:00 - [179]
 

I see a problem with it. This will make the current BPO holding alliances basically unassailable.

Lets look at it this way:
1) When a Goonswarm member gets blown up they loose (Ship purchase price - Insurance + Cost of Insurance + Cost of lost modules). Since Goonswarm builds most of their ships + t1 modules themselves and sells ships close to their 99% Insurance payout - cost to insure, there members loose very little when they get popped.

2) Now lets looks at everybody who is buying T2 off the market. When their ship get destroyed they loose the same formula EXCEPT that their items have a huge markup. Sure thier HAC may be insured at 99% but payout is still a fraction of price.

3) Finally lets look at a T2 BPO holding alliance. They CAN build their own T2 items. When their members ships get destroyed they DON'T LOOSE THE MARKUP. Thus said alliance can afford to fit and fly MANY more T2 ships and modules then one stuck buying supplies in JITA.

So fast forward. If BPO's are no longer available this means that any NEW alliance that want's to hold space will have the option to either 1) buy T2 on the market or 2) try invention. The problem with invention is that since it's by and large, market dependent CCP has INSTITUTIONALIZED the T2 markup. If this theoretical new alliance buys off the market they pay the markup. If they try to invent they also pay the markup (in cost of invention supplies). Result, the new alliance can't afford to fight a war with a T2 holder alliance, the price of the remaining T2 BPO's skyrocket as they are now strategic goods used to secure terretory - not production items used to make isk.

There is only one way to fix the current mess. CCP needs to but the BPO lotteries on continous weekly reseed. This is so clear that the fact that CCP hasn't addressed this idea gives rise to the implication of wrongdoing on CCP's, part.

Dal

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2007.02.22 05:21:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Ben Derindar on 22/02/2007 05:23:15
I think BPOs provide an important distinction from BPCs and shouldn't be removed from the game completely. But having said that, I do think BPOs are overpowered in their current form.

My first thought to fixing this would be to change all BPOs into 100-run BPCs or whatever, but that kinda kills that distinction I was just referring to, so something a little more interesting instead:

What about setting a time limit of $m months on the lifetime of a BPO, say a year or something? Think of it like a non-exclusive limited-time patent of sorts. A BPO owner has $m amount of time to do what he can with it, but regardless of how many units he builds with it, it disappears after $m.

The other change I would make to BPOs is that people who have already accepted offers of BPOs should have their chances of getting another reduced for $m also. Not eliminated completely, just reduced. Maybe base the amount of reduced chance on the amount of LP exchanged for the first BPO?

Finally, I think it's very important to weight the number of seeded BPOs based on player numbers. As the game grows, the number of BPOs in the game should increase proportionally to preserve the supply/demand balance.

/Ben


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