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toeslammer
Caldari
Rae Corp
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:15:00 - [31]
 

The recent scandal and its handling really had steam shooting out my ears. I canceled my 3 accounts because I refuse to pay for a game that does not provide a level playing field for all players.

I am glad to see that CCP has taken some steps to prevent abuse, but tbh, my main concern now is GM provided information via vent or other forms of communication that you won't have a log of. I guess it boils down to the fact that I have lost the ablility to trust CCP. Devs forming friendships with other players and feeling the competition to help their corporations win will remain a problem. I know there are other players that feel the same way.

What can you say to us to allow us to start the trust again ?

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:15:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Hakera on 13/02/2007 20:13:13

you realise everyone hates compliance/internal affairs Twisted Evil

is there a way players can reach you for whistleblowing on CCP/ISD in the future? Though of course the ultimate aim of such controls is prevention rather than cure which hopefuly new monitoring will aid, followed by the 'interrogations' which should involve wet trouts and being forced to listen to S Club 7. Very Happy

Quaird
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:17:00 - [33]
 

Could you please publish a detailed list of the rules/laws/regulations etc that the GMs and Devs are expected to follow when playing in game? This will help with the current situation because then everyone will clearly understand what is allowed (or not). One of the issues is this has never been been documented in one place for the community to read. One way of looking at this is the equivalent of a EULA for CCP employees.

Thanks

Indy500
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:20:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Indy500 on 13/02/2007 20:18:53
Some of the allegations of developer misconduct are less tangible than something that could be verified through in-game logs. For example, players of certain alliances being forewarned of in game events with rewards, or developers using an intimate knowledge of hidden game mechanics to further themselves or a group of players in an unfair manner.

This knowledge could easily be passed on without a CCP employee or volunteer revealing their status with CCP to anyone in game, but certainly could create a situation where that player or player's group has an advantage over another group that could be considered by some to be an exploit. In some cases I imagine this could lead to an actual exploitation of game mechanics and that could be easier to identify, but that's not what I am speaking of. I would think that an exploiting (in the truest sense) CCP employee would be treated just as a player would.

I am curious what CCP's policy on this kind of behavior, is it ethical or not? How would you in your new position identify these kinds of issues? And what kind of disciplinary action could be taken (if any) on offenders?

Yellow Planet
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:24:00 - [35]
 

This restores my faith in CCP. I have always heard that you are impartial and fair. I am going to reactivate my pending account changes.

Thanks for moving forward.

Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:34:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: CCP Arkanon
Thanks! It was a heady cocktail with several secret incredients. It was a confusing time with us not knowing how to react, no policy in place on how to deal with it (but there is now) and the managerial staff on vacation. I can't explain it any better than that, we should have taken the BPOs right away and as one of the GMs involved, I am as much to blame for this as anyone else. T20s player accounts were closed at once.


Thank you for finally addressing this concern. Saying "yup, we messed up" is much better than not saying anything at all and this particular wrinkle of the whole thing has been bothering me ever since the epic thread.

Val Oman
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:36:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Val Oman on 13/02/2007 20:32:25
I understand the reasoning behind not retroactivly punishing T20 after it was publicly exposed. But maybe a dunking booth at the next fanfest is in order Twisted Evil.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:37:00 - [38]
 

Good stuff. Hope it's more then a promise and you can actually contribute to the integrity of CCP and their game. Painfuly as it is, it needed to go the rough way before action was taken - let it not happen again!



CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.02.13 20:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: toeslammer
What can you say to us to allow us to start the trust again?

We have given assurances of as much transparency as possible within the guidelines of the privacy policy, a Dev Blog from the CEO, a number of statements on the forums, an apology from t20 and an introductory blog from the Director of IA. I'm not sure what else you are after.

Ashis
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:38:00 - [40]
 

This has the potential to restore some faith in CCP that I have lost, given time, and visible action. A few questions to our new director of internal affairs:

1) Many issue exists around not only what is seen in the logs, but also the less tangible and as equally damaging issues that have up to now been suspicious. Hypothetical case (so as not to breach the EULA by discussing specifics) - if I am a Dev player on Team speak with a corp mate and mention something as off handed as, "If I were you I would sell that BPO before the next patch." --- I appreciate how difficult it is for you to prove/discover something like that. Instead of being reactive - how do you proactively facilitate a corporate culture where these issues become turned away from at the employee level?

2) Given the banning of whistle-blowing players in the past - what kind of system of amnesty/protection are you going to offer for players that may have lots of information, but are too afraid now to step forward with it? Lets face it, CCP isn't exactly approachable at this point. How also does this translate into forum censorship and bannings?

3) What are the limits of your powers? Can you ban Hellmar? (Not that I'm suggesting Hellmar needs a banning - but lets face it, if Oveur had an indiscretion or 2 I wouldn't want to do anything about it).

4) What process/flags will a petitioned issue need to have in order to get to you? For example, in the heat of this controversy one of the goons mentioned that a CCP ship was flying around scouting - would that automatically come to you or would it need to be escalated first?

5) Releasing information -- recognizing there is a balance between what the players want to know, and what they legal can know, as well as what it is in CCPs best interest for them to know -- but also keeping in mind that silent justice isn't going to do anything new... what kind of report can you give to the community? Can you say something like "this week/month 47 allegations were made against CCP employees. 10 of them were what I would consider issues with enough initial substance to investigate. 1 of them was found to be true. It was very low impact. That employee has been terminated." ... I think that would be good for the community *and* CCP employees.

6) Will CCP institute a zero-policy towards Devs/GMs cheating going forward? If not, what do you forsee as the exceptions? Why are these exceptions necessary if employees are being warned and trained as they walk through your door on the first day?

Thank you CCP for this step. This issue has been weighing heavily on me - no one likes "feeling like the fool." I sincerely hope that the actions and follow through continue.

Mal Renolds
Caldari
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Aeternus.
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:39:00 - [41]
 

Quote:
I believed, and still believe that we owe our player community the right to be the focus of EVE, without paid employees using dirty tricks to swing our universe in their favor. Even playing by the rules, I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I don't believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe; that spot is reserved for the paying customer. EVE is a sandbox, but it's not our sandbox. We're here to keep it clean and provide the sand.

null


This was my main concern and Im very satisfied if this is policy , but Im not sure if this is belief or is this the new policy ? When you are hired by CCP IMO you lose your right to "win eve" your there to play to make it better for us the player not your corp/alliance

So policy or personal belief?

Nezz Jaran
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:43:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Nezz Jaran on 13/02/2007 20:41:09
Ark,

Congrats on the post. I've read through this thread and still have a few questions, which I will bold, as I have a tendency to ramble.

I'm sure you are aware that many people feel that more actions were taken than originally acknowledged. Add to that the alleged issue of a GM scouting systems. I am aware that both of those issues have been handled. However, the damage, in both cases, has been done. The logging system, the open (albeit limited) ability for people to 'check up' on each other, those are all essentially reactive solutions.
Using those systems will surely help, but by the time the logs can be reviewed, chances are that the damage is done. Is there any sort of proactive solution, not counting discouragement via deterrrent, being considered?

Will there be any kind of notification system that would let the community know when something happens? I can understand if this is not something that is possible, due to concerns that this would cause further disruption and upheaval in the community. However, it would definitely provide further transparency (which is typically a good thing).

This might be more appropriate for Kieron, but is there any chance that a new area in the forums can be created to allow for lightly moderated venting of the recent events? There's still a large portion of the playerbase that would like to post about what has happened. However, the recent moderation efforts have worsened the situation by stifling communication and forcing it to other sites. I know that I myself have both of my accounts in pending cancel status because of this (straw that broke the camel's back).

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:46:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Ashis

2) Given the banning of whistle-blowing players in the past - what kind of system of amnesty/protection are you going to offer for players that may have lots of information, but are too afraid now to step forward with it? Lets face it, CCP isn't exactly approachable at this point. How also does this translate into forum censorship and bannings?



without trying to enter a debate, I imagine it depends on the information (after all can anything be really trusted from an external source!). the means in which the information is obtained may not justify the ends in some cases, so I would not imagine you will recieve ammnesty where you broke laws to obtain the information.

Lee Walker
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:48:00 - [44]
 

Arkanon, what is your position on whether CCP employees should be allowed to be members of player-run corps on Tranquility?

Lord Slater
Amarr
Kodan Armada
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:50:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Hapexamendios IV
This a huge step in restoring faith in ccp. Excellent work.


Not really but its a step in the right direction for me at least.

Altaree
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:50:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: kieron


We have a privacy policy to protect not only the player base. It is not our place to disclose to the community that "Player X did Y and received Z as a punishment", and this is why we have not answered the allegations of misconduct on the part of certain players.

It is not an easy stance to take, especially when so many community members have voiced their concerns about it, but put the shoe on the other foot. I do not know of many people who would like to have their mistakes aired in the public eye.



I think players would like to see one of two things:
1) Change the policy, NAME AND SHAME cheaters and out all of their alts. If I am cheating I expect to be publically ridiculed before getting banned.
2) Express these statements EXACTLY like you did above. Never replace X with a name. Just fill in Y and Z. You might need to obsfucate Y a bit. Just expose the process to daylight so that we can see what your are doing.

Wizzkidy
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:53:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Wizzkidy on 13/02/2007 20:49:24
Originally by: kieron
I'm not sure what else you are after.




Umm, I'm not sure if your company can EVER be trusted again to be honest Kieron. I still don't think you relise (or t20 does for that matter) what the hell has happend here.

I'm sorry and although I understand your "policies" I want details, I don't care if T20 does not want there "mistakes" aired in public, he should of throught about that at the time.

Yes i'm angry but as far as i'm concerned posting a blog that says "sorry" don't cut it and YOU know that.


Ashis
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:54:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Hakera
without trying to enter a debate, I imagine it depends on the information (after all can anything be really trusted from an external source!). the means in which the information is obtained may not justify the ends in some cases, so I would not imagine you will recieve ammnesty where you broke laws to obtain the information.


That's fair to a point. I hate slippery slope arguments - but I'm sure you can anticipate that my next question is - where does CCP see their responsibility in enforcing the law? Is it only to the point that they are liable? I have no problem with CCP reporting wrong doings, and fully protecting themselves from litigation... but they cross a line when they become vigilantes and start to punish people that they believe have broken a law. That's what police and lawyers are for, not CCP.

So let me ask a subquestion:

2b) Based on the above - aside from reporting illegal actions, and protecting itself from litigation - what kind of assurances does the player base have that CCP isn't punishing those people that it believes have broken a law outside of legal due process?

Sm0kE
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:55:00 - [49]
 

Hi Arkanon.

How will you handle things like... I don't know, BoB showing up at a POS and targetting through the POS shields using passive targetters shortly after a patch was released? In otherwords, clear inside information cases that you have no way to prove indefinately?

The BPOs really don't bother me. The information one can get from a dev player is much more powerful.

Gulkan Djinn
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:56:00 - [50]
 

Arkanor,

I have a question,

I have been reading this stuff for the last couple of days now. It honestly has a large impact on my decisions of how to spend my free time and money.

********** has been banned, a questionable decision as it looks to be a coverup, but certainly a justifiable decision.

According to Kieron's statements this ban was due to the "posting of RL information which is completely unacceptable under any circumstances". This, I believe we all agree is the appropriate attitude.

SirMolle is documented as having posted the ********** characters RL information as well as threats of RL action outside of appropriate reporting to the authorities, but as far as I can tell, there was no permanent ban.

Is this the sort of decision that you will be reviewing? If so, how are you going to make it transparent to the community that favoritism wasn't expressed in the decision making process for two different results occuring for the same causal action?

If it isn't the sort of decision that you will be reviewing, then who does? The same people who have made those decisions?
How will favoritism and selected treatment be discovered?

My further couple of questions regard the people that you report to. Does the COO play the game on the tranquility server? How about other company members of equal rank or influence as the COO? What methods have been put in place that you could take appropriate actions against people of that nature without jeopardizing your employment?

Wizzkidy
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:56:00 - [51]
 

Oh can I also add that I still don't know that cheating isn't going on internally. for all I know there are Dev's cheating right. I disagree devs being in alliances. It's THAT simple.

CCP Arkanon


C C P
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:59:00 - [52]
 

Answers #3

Originally by: Anator Namon
How do you feel about issues where a GM, ISD, Dev, etc (CCP sanctioned person of authority) gave out information that to a select group of players and not to all?

How would you catch such a thing?

How do you feel about a CCP sanctioned person turning a blind eye to a violation done by one person, but acting to the fullest extant against the same violation done by someone else?

How would you watch such a thing?




I can only tell you that I'd do my best, in both cases. I can now request specific funtions to be created in ESP (our logging tools), if I feel I need them for my work. So, if I had reasonable suspicion that something was going on that I couln't prove, I would request the tools I need to do so.

---


Originally by: Hamfast
Arkanon,

First off, grats on the new position...

Now, on to the issue...

Looking at the recent unpleasantness, were it to happen again in the coming months, can you step through the procedures you would be expecting to take and how early you think you would have found it as well as the outcome?
event.


Thanks! If I see anything that strikes me as a major breach of our rules, I simply close all the accounts involved, pending investigation. Then, I audit everyone involved and complie a report of my findings, which I send to my superiors for further action, as needed. I furthermore log my investigations.

Hopefully, regular audits will mean that no major issues will remain hidden for long. It's hard to hide what you're doing here, as I mentioned earlier.

---

Originally by: Jake Noble
I know some people feel that the petition system sometimes can go to the person GM you are petitioning for example, do you have a way of people contacting you out with the petition system? I think possibly a report misconduct email address or even an option in the petition system which would go to you and Hellmar for example? I dont have anything to report but I am sure that it is something that would benefit the community as I feel some players may think twice before petitioning certain things.


If you feel wronged in EVE, you can not be silenced. There are plenty of ways to contact people of authority in EVE in an emergency, I believe mailing kieron is one of them, he has forwarded many a case to us.

---

Originally by: toeslammer

I am glad to see that CCP has taken some steps to prevent abuse, but tbh, my main concern now is GM provided information via vent or other forms of communication that you won't have a log of. I guess it boils down to the fact that I have lost the ablility to trust CCP. Devs forming friendships with other players and feeling the competition to help their corporations win will remain a problem. I know there are other players that feel the same way.

What can you say to us to allow us to start the trust again ?


Good question, difficult but good. Unfortunately, I can not verify who said what to whom, let alone reaching into the past. I can only say that our policies regarding this are and have always been clear. We have go to great lengths to impress the seriousness of what we are doing on our staff. if In case someone still doesn't get it, we now have a vastly improved investigative effort in place to find them.

And I can tell you that before this matter resurfaced, we did a database query of devs in alliances. They were evenly spread out, no unnatural pattern visible whatsoever.

Other than that I can only say that I think it would always be visible ingame if we were a corrupt company. Nothing I could say would stop you from noticing it, if it was happening and nothing I could do would silence such an event, or stop it from becoming public knowledge, once discovered.
---

ANSWERS 4

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:05:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: kieron
Originally by: toeslammer
What can you say to us to allow us to start the trust again?

We have given assurances of as much transparency as possible within the guidelines of the privacy policy, a Dev Blog from the CEO, a number of statements on the forums, an apology from t20 and an introductory blog from the Director of IA. I'm not sure what else you are after.



The problem is that no one knows exactly what the total damage done in game has been. The BPOs are a tangable items that were easy enough to trace, but what about the "inside" information that a Dev could have been passing around the whole time?

Can a Dev take a look to see what the levels of fuel are for PoSs in an entire enemy system then relay this information to their in-game buds to take advantage of a weakness? What about flaws in the code that allow people to exploit bugs that the Devs have first hand information about, was any information like this passed along?

Trust is not something that is earned back easily or quickly.

phillie blunt
Live And Let Die
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:07:00 - [54]
 

so Arkanon = God ?

Berious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:08:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
Even playing by the rules, I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I don't believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe; that spot is reserved for the paying customer.


That's good to hear, will this become a general policy for employee characters?

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:11:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 13/02/2007 21:10:44
Originally by: Ashis
This has the potential to restore some faith in CCP that I have lost, given time, and visible action. A few questions to our new director of internal affairs:

1) Many issue exists around not only what is seen in the logs, but also the less tangible and as equally damaging issues that have up to now been suspicious. Hypothetical case (so as not to breach the EULA by discussing specifics) - if I am a Dev player on Team speak with a corp mate and mention something as off handed as, "If I were you I would sell that BPO before the next patch." --- I appreciate how difficult it is for you to prove/discover something like that. Instead of being reactive - how do you proactively facilitate a corporate culture where these issues become turned away from at the employee level?

2) Given the banning of whistle-blowing players in the past - what kind of system of amnesty/protection are you going to offer for players that may have lots of information, but are too afraid now to step forward with it? Lets face it, CCP isn't exactly approachable at this point. How also does this translate into forum censorship and bannings?

3) What are the limits of your powers? Can you ban Hellmar? (Not that I'm suggesting Hellmar needs a banning - but lets face it, if Oveur had an indiscretion or 2 I wouldn't want to do anything about it).

4) What process/flags will a petitioned issue need to have in order to get to you? For example, in the heat of this controversy one of the goons mentioned that a CCP ship was flying around scouting - would that automatically come to you or would it need to be escalated first?

5) Releasing information -- recognizing there is a balance between what the players want to know, and what they legal can know, as well as what it is in CCPs best interest for them to know -- but also keeping in mind that silent justice isn't going to do anything new... what kind of report can you give to the community? Can you say something like "this week/month 47 allegations were made against CCP employees. 10 of them were what I would consider issues with enough initial substance to investigate. 1 of them was found to be true. It was very low impact. That employee has been terminated." ... I think that would be good for the community *and* CCP employees.

6) Will CCP institute a zero-policy towards Devs/GMs cheating going forward? If not, what do you forsee as the exceptions? Why are these exceptions necessary if employees are being warned and trained as they walk through your door on the first day?

Thank you CCP for this step. This issue has been weighing heavily on me - no one likes "feeling like the fool." I sincerely hope that the actions and follow through continue.


I fully subscribe to the message quoted. Without good answers to the questions posed, I have little faith in CCP being able to restore my trust.

Also, CCP appoints a GM to oversee this. With or without my tin foil hat on, several accusations have been leveled at GMs with regards to leaking event information, all probably done using OoG means. Silly references to witch doctors asside, how will you convince us the directory of internal affairs is clean? How about the other volunteers/GMs?

AFAIK, this is just the beginning of the beginning. Actions speak louder than words.

Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:11:00 - [57]
 

Good job CCP, and good luck Ark with your new position. I think you just need to remind the employees that they have the best job in the world, and it would be stupid to risk it for cheating in a videogame.



Originally by: Wizzkidy
Oh can I also add that I still don't know that cheating isn't going on internally. for all I know there are Dev's cheating right. I disagree devs being in alliances. It's THAT simple.


If you can't restore your trust into CCP you need to quit EvE, it's THAT simple. It is in CCPs interest to satisfy their customers and make sure a scandal like this never happens again. You need to realise that it is in their own best interest to resolve these issues, because they don't want to lose YOU as a customer.

But CCP doesn't really owe you an exact insight of whats going inside their office. Both sides need to soften their fronts and move toward each other to deescalate the situation here. Else it won't work. CCP did the first step, now its your turn.

Bug Out
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:12:00 - [58]
 

Welcome Arkanon,

I would like to highlight the last paragraph in your blog.

Originally by: Arkanon
I believed, and still believe that we owe our player community the right to be the focus of EVE, without paid employees using dirty tricks to swing our universe in their favor. Even playing by the rules, I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I don't believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe; that spot is reserved for the paying customer. EVE is a sandbox, but it's not our sandbox. We're here to keep it clean and provide the sand.


Does this mean that CCP employees should/will not be in the senior hierarchy of major alliances?

GM Arkanon

Posted - 2007.02.13 21:16:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: GM Arkanon on 13/02/2007 21:19:49
Originally by: Sgt Napalm
Neat

Does Wranger get to make you coffee too? Surprised


He's in another country, so I'd never get to drink it Confused

Edit, wrong char, that's so cute!

SonOTassadar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.02.13 21:23:00 - [60]
 

Dang. You sound like the guy that nobody ever wants to see, because if they see you, it's bad news. Good luck. Sad

PS: One of you devs needs to get Abraxas pinned down and poor salt in his eyes for being so late on the new chronicle.


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