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blankseplocked pirate camping - some thoughts
 
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Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.12 17:05:00 - [1]
 

some review of how this whole thing works:

k, pirates camp trade routes...thats their "job". Trade routes can be camped at stargates and stations. Stargates are a bit better camping spot because there is more traffic there than to the stations.

k, gates it is then. How do you camp a gate?

lets not get into tactical details, i am just going to speculate the HOW.

stargates have two points. you enter a stargate in one system and exit from another stargate (the one you would use to jump back) in another system.

so, basically...pirates who are camping a stargate can catch pilots entering and exiting the system via that particular stargate - nothing new so far...

so, lets try to do some "ethics" - something every pirate doesnt tend to think about...his view is ...his... view.

when warping to a stargate you have the navigaional option (soon) to warp in at different ranges. you can also use the ship scanner (use "by direction" and point to the stargate) to check for campers - the ship scanner is a bit slow...but reducing the possible objects it speeds up) - thus you can have a pretty good idea what you are up against before trying to jump a camp. (this is very easy) - then you just warp in at far range to check out if the camp is "breakable".

this seems all fair and square, if pilots want to pass to the next system the pirates will have a field day (they hope against our hope) trying to prevent you from passing through.

k, then - this is cool. the opposite end of the deal however is ...not cool

the only info you have to check if there are pirates camping the exit of the stargate in the system you are about to jump to is the map. And then your best guess is "pilots in space", "ships destroyed" and "podkills"...
sure, this should give you a pretty good idea what you are going to face once on the other side. - all "best" guesses though as you dont know if there are pirates camping exacly the stargate you will be exiting from or another stargate in the system.

this will be the pirates primary source of "food" because of the element of surprise and specially because of the warp interdiction field.
- my take on the warp interdiction field is that its VERY cool and i like how the entering ship is placed in the middle of it (between jumping back and clear space for warping) -
some people are complaining that it will be extremely easy to kill entering ships, two frigates using webs and a heavy firepower ship standing by...no warp interdiction needed because of the "already in place" warp interdiction field. - sentry guns in secure space will save players from that curse though = the result of that i think will be that 0.4 - 0.1 will be too secure and 0.0 to unsecure (if thats possible)

how so?
well, kinda obvious for 0.4 where sentries will shoot the webbing frigates down in seconds...making the route free for the entering pilot (question is ...will the web effect stop the pilot long enough for the backup ship to lock and destroy?)

0.0 then...you are NEVER going to know what you will be up against and nobody but a pretty strong fleet will have a chance of passing through without suffering losses.

the attempt to balance this situation is the cloak you are given upon exiting a stargate. that however, according to players testing it on the chaos server does not give good chances for the jumping pilot - basically zero chance for a single pilot jumping in 0.0 to escape a blockade (unless perhaps the pirates are asleep).

my question is: why should pirates have the possibility to camp both the entrance AND exit of a system with only one fleet?
- currently they can only camp either the jip or the stargate, why change that?

my deductions are that you should NOT be able to prevent a player from entering a system one he has actually jumped into the system. that is...players who enter systems should be "home" free...if you would have wanted to prevent that player from coming to the system you should have camped the gate he jumped from.

how it should be:
- players should always be able to enter systems without the risk of being killed without having a chance to move.
- 20 km interdiction field around gates and 2,5 km jump distance allows pirates to "stop" a ship trying to break the blockade by either:
1. webbing the ship as it enters the warp interdiction field
2. webbing and warp scrambling the ship as it is approaching the stargate - with the current chaos attributes for aburners and mwd's people dont have THAT good a chance to break the block.

the result of this will be that players will always be able to find out if a system stargate is blocked and can negotiate for safe passage (trusting pirates) before trying to break the block. - players coming from another system CAN NOT DO THAT!!! <- this is the all important reason why players should be safe when entering systems.

im not going to say PLEASE fix this or do that...simply - consider the possibilities and the game

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.12 17:06:00 - [2]
 

sheesh..sorry for the long post Shocked

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.13 00:46:00 - [3]
 

any comment please...it might be a bit long but:

- only way to camp is when you are trying to reach a stargate to jump to the next system NOT when players enter a system.

give me comment on if this is a bad idea or not please...

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2003.12.13 01:50:00 - [4]
 

I'd just like to add; Idea Idea Lab Arrow

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.13 02:00:00 - [5]
 

didnt feel like an idea lab...cause i wanted a bit of feedback before i could post a proper idea with some good reasoning.

Riddari
VIT
Posted - 2003.12.13 02:13:00 - [6]
 

I like it

You should land randomly when you jump into a system. The risk of never seeing your ship and only see the inside of your cloning station is way too high as I'm sure most know.

Once you are in the system it's another ballgame.

Newg Runecasting
Caldari
Applied Technologies Inc
Posted - 2003.12.13 02:39:00 - [7]
 

I Like it...

Give more meaning to the term Blockade... Gives Non-PVP players more of a Choice on if they want to risk running a gate!

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2003.12.13 04:54:00 - [8]
 

grrr.

Note: 1 MWD = impossible to stop.

PvP needs balancing to make it Easier to stop people not harder.

Eayon
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.13 05:51:00 - [9]
 

Quote:
grrr.

Note: 1 MWD = impossible to stop.

PvP needs balancing to make it Easier to stop people not harder


Are you even aware of what is on Chaos atm?
Try it before you flame

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2003.12.13 05:58:00 - [10]
 

i've been doing some testing on chaos. With that said so you know i'm not blowing smoke up your skirts the MWD's are getting a well needed nerf.

Also you do fail to notice one thing about how it's currently going to be. That being in order for the pirates to camp said gate, and not propel their would be prey to an easy jump, they have to park themselves well withing the field. So while somone jumping in may have a difficult time escaping without at least geting shot at, the pirates will more likely then not have a much more difficult time avoiding the big anti-pirate fleet whenver it gets around to coming. Also believe me when i say more often then no unless the pirates have a massive fleet the anti-pirates will come sooner or later.

really I think will have to wait and see if the way it's going to be on mondy needs changing or not.

Ronyo Dae'Loki
4S Corporation
Posted - 2003.12.13 06:25:00 - [11]
 

I'm not so sure about that, Zarthan. What are the anti-warp fields, 20km in radius? Something like that.

Sounds comfortably inside a battleship's main weapons to me. They just need to sit at about 25-30km from the gate and they have the whole area covered. (Because most combat people in a battleship with fairly good skills will have an optimal range of somewhere around 40-50km if not longer)

I have a bad feeling about all the changes as a whole--apart, each one makes sense and I agree with on some levels, but taken all together I think may be a recipe for disaster regarding travel. We'll soon see, though, won't we?

Stoli
Posted - 2003.12.13 06:55:00 - [12]
 

I think that it is fine to have a single jump OUT point - that makes sense, since you have to go to a gate.

However, wouldn't it be possible to "randomize" the location at which you enter the system? It would be easy enough to fit into the rationale of gameplay - the movement of the planets within the system and the activity of the system's sun(s) - solar flares and the like - slightly affects the gravitational variables that can result in a ship dropping out of warp anywhere within a 100 km radius of the "target" entry point.

Ships that jump in a gang, however, would all arrive at that randomized point TOGETHER - this would allow a group of travelers moving from secure space into what appears to be dangerous space to group together for mutual self-defense. Any pirates attempting to camp the jump-in would either have to dispere their forces (making the individual ships vulnerable to a gang dropping in), or group them all in one place and hope to get lucky by having the entering ships drop somewhere near them!

So, if you want to run a blockade, you've got at least a decent chance of getting INTO the system and being able to warp off somewhere within the system, but then of course the pirates have the option of trying to block the gate on the way out.

Loraine Riesel
Posted - 2003.12.13 09:27:00 - [13]
 

Just one line:

CCP can prepare for a huge drop in players (ie: loose much income in $$ ), when implementing the non-empire-BS-mining, JIP feature, change in mwd's and afterburners with the implementation of the patch this Monday!

John Zeppe
Amarr
Posted - 2003.12.13 09:38:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Quote:
grrr.

Note: 1 MWD = impossible to stop.

PvP needs balancing to make it Easier to stop people not harder


Are you even aware of what is on Chaos atm?
Try it before you flame

Obviously not...
1 MWD = stupid

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.13 17:15:00 - [15]
 

k, some very good comments...thanks :)

first:
"it wont be long till the anti pirates come"

that will mean we will have small blockades and big blockades...the small ones will be easily dispersed by the "police" in the nearby systems that can group togeather and break the blockade.
the big ones however, it will take some time to assemble a fleet to break that one.
= all in all i see this as GREAT ground for PVP - much more PVP and specifically for the ones that WANT PVP (although i hear some people only want to PVP against someone who doesnt shoot back - i say they can just go shoot themselves)

second:
"randomized jip"
this is an idea that has surfaced every once in a while i think. personally i would make the jip larger...like 500 km in radius.

but to keep to the story, the entering vessel emerges from the gate that you would use to enter the system you came from. this makes "solutions" to the jip problem somewhat difficult to make.
atm they are trying the cloak, that way players are sure to have activated their camera drones before getting blown to bits AND adding the chance to "scout" the area.

however, with the current placement:
1. you have NO way to escape a properly setup jip blockade (you get webbed, and probably target locked, as soon as you appear by frigates and/or cruisers - then blown to bits by a bship like it was target practice)
2. this gives anti-pirates a somewhat TOO good opportunity to jump in (cloak means they dont show up in local i think j0sephine said) and plan their "kill" before the pirates even know they are there.

some might see a balance there, but i dont.

oh, and yes...mwd is NOT impossible to stop with the changes its undergoing...

Darth Vodka
Posted - 2003.12.13 17:23:00 - [16]
 

right that's it.

Loraine Riesel - the stockades for you !!

You've spammed your little post (copy and paste job) into every forum, patch review and all, i must have seen your same post at least 15 times today whilst browsing the forum.

Could you like stop spamming this, i heard you the first time

Miz Cenuij
Caldari
Posted - 2003.12.13 17:45:00 - [17]
 

MWD nerf - Sweet.
Nuff said.

Eayon
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.13 21:03:00 - [18]
 

On it's own I would agree with you Miz but when you take the other factors into consideration (no-warp zones, warp delay (building speed), targetting whilst warp aligning etc) I think it's too much.

We will see what happens when it hits TQ and hope the devs know what they are doing I guess.

Negotiator
Coerce Inc
Posted - 2003.12.13 21:12:00 - [19]
 

how does everyone like Miz's sig? imo its uber Razz

Archon Theo
Minmatar
guy510 Corp
Posted - 2003.12.14 16:02:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
On it's own I would agree with you Miz but when you take the other factors into consideration (no-warp zones, warp delay (building speed), targetting whilst warp aligning etc) I think it's too much.

We will see what happens when it hits TQ and hope the devs know what they are doing I guess.


Yeah, a bit too much probably. I agree


 

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