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Teadrinker
Posted - 2007.02.07 19:05:00 - [1]
 

What are your opinions about the minimum class of ship that is required for each mission level? By "minimum" I don't mean a ship that will get you through most encounters alive, but a type that will--if correctly employed--get you through all the missions at that level. Here's what I've found so far:

Level 1: Destroyer (Catalyst). Tristan frigate worked OK most of the time, but sometimes there is no substitute for superior firepower.

Level 2: Cruiser (Thorax). Again, I eventually hit a wall with my Catalyst--I could take out battlecruisers in it while ratting, but some of the Level 2 missions involved so much incoming rocket fire that the destroyer simply couldn't last long enough.

Level 3: Battle Cruiser. Actually, I'm stuck here--I lost 3 Thoraxes in a row (one in a PvP ambush), and I'm back to running Level 2 missions to make enough money to buy a Brutix, so I'm just hoping that the Brutix will do the job. Same story--the Thorax just can't stand up to the incoming missile fire.

Level 4: Dunno...battleship?

Zaphroid Eulthran
Minmatar
Imperial Visions
Posted - 2007.02.07 19:15:00 - [2]
 

You've got it pretty much right, although it is also heavially dependent on having enough of the right skills.

Lvl 1 - Lo skills, go destroyer,(uber noob may still lose this) a high skill character can do these in a frigate.

Lvl 2 - Lo skills cruiser definatly, High skills can be done with destroyer or Elite Frigate

Lvl 3 - Battlecruiser all the way only the lowest of skill points can loose one of these here, a T2 cruiser is possible for high sp characters.

Lvl 4 - Battleship for most characters, a T2 battlecruiser(or drake) is an alternative for high sp characters.

all of this is reliant on player skill (not sp) and fitting it, is perfectly possible to loose a BS to a lvl2 if you really try.

Slayton Ford
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.07 20:40:00 - [3]
 

If you really want to learn how to survive in this game, do lvl2's in a frigate (I did almost all l2's in a Rifter) and lvl4's in a BC (some like Vengeance may be impossible).

Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2007.02.08 01:28:00 - [4]
 

You should be able to handle any level 3 in a Brutix. The 2nd room of Mordus Headhunters will blow it up though if you don't have a serious tank on it.

Solanar Starjumper
Gallente
The Revenge of Auntie Freeze
Posted - 2007.02.08 02:18:00 - [5]
 

I've been doing level 2's in an assault frigate. My hope was that a faster ship would allow faster completion. I'm only trying to work faction for research agents...

Manus Stuprare
Cold Service
Posted - 2007.02.08 10:49:00 - [6]
 

Punisher can handle all the level 2 missions I've ever been offered, for fun I've even done a couple of the easier level 3's in it. Haven't tried it in level 4's yet.. hmmm... Very Happy

Lady Loom
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.02.08 11:34:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Manus Stuprare
Punisher can handle all the level 2 missions I've ever been offered, for fun I've even done a couple of the easier level 3's in it. Haven't tried it in level 4's yet.. hmmm... Very Happy
I cannot imagine a T1 frig surviving the missile spam of Guristas L2 missions TBH

Kery Nysell
Caldari
Nysell Incorporated
Posted - 2007.02.08 14:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lady Loom
I cannot imagine a T1 frig surviving the missile spam of Guristas L2 missions TBH


Well, it's possible, I've done a bunch of level 2 "guristas" missions in my Condor (!!), without faction mods even (T2 Shield Booster, T2 AB, T2 BCS, 2xRockets Launchers and a T2 75mm rail), but it really depends on your skillpoints and on how well you know your ship and the mission you're doing ... I cannot do the "Stop the Thief" lvl 2 in my Condor, those 3 Mallers with the EM missiles are way too much for my unresisted shield, but all the others are doable (not easilly, of course).

Kathira
Gallente
Denial of Service
Freelancer Coalition
Posted - 2007.02.08 15:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Kathira on 08/02/2007 15:14:45
I once tried some level 2 ( for fun ) in a tristan.

there was one where around half a dozen ships threw missiles with a range I could not stand with the tristan. I killed them with that tristan - better say one by one with the one small drone of the tristan. I kited them for around 200 km ( targeting range of the tristan was lower then the range of the missiles but my dronerange was greater )until the last died.

So I think all level 2 are possible in a t1, but sometimes you must think outside the box.

Egil Kolsto
Caldari
Collwood Collective
Posted - 2007.02.08 15:43:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Teadrinker
What are your opinions about the minimum class of ship that is required for each mission level? By "minimum" I don't mean a ship that will get you through most encounters alive, but a type that will--if correctly employed--get you through all the missions at that level. Here's what I've found so far:

Level 1: Destroyer

Level 2: Cruiser
Level 3: Battle Cruiser.
Level 4: Dunno...battleship?


I am all Caldari, so I use missile platforms. Too impatient to climb the hybrid guns yet.
1. Kestrel (world collide was a serious problem, might be low skill issue)
2. Caracal (spent some time here and got large Shield Exxtenders II), Down the Slaver II was the downfall on level 3 missions...
3. Loosing 3 Caracals to same mission, swapped to Ferox, now would use Drake. UBER passive tank
4. Most missions done in the same Ferox, skipped Angel EA and there was no WC in high-sec when I used the Ferox. Moved to Raven and later CNR for a LOT better DPS and slightly more controllable tanking.

1. Destroyer/high skilled frigate
2. Cruiser
3. BC (drake)
4. Drake/BS/Hac - whatever floats your boat.

Teadrinker
Posted - 2007.02.08 18:47:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran


Lvl 3 - Battlecruiser all the way only the lowest of skill points can loose one of these here, a T2 cruiser is possible for high sp characters.
...
all of this is reliant on player skill (not sp) and fitting it, is perfectly possible to loose a BS to a lvl2 if you really try.


So you think it is possible to do all the level 3s in a Thorax? That's intriguing, I like the idea of doing as much as I can with as little as possible. But the level 3 mission I failed with my Thoraxen (R.I.P.) involved immediate massive incoming missile fire from about a dozen hostiles. (OK, I didn't actually have time to count them...)

First time, I tried tanking them with 800 mm armor, explosive and thermal active hardeners (all T1) and two small T2 reppers, and couldn't keep up with the damage. I was so involved trying to kill at least one of them that I didn't notice my cap was empty until it was too late. They chewed through what was left of my armor in seconds, and fini.

Second time, I decided to be foxy, and run like hell as soon as I warped in. I hoped to be able to outrun their fire, string them out and then pick them off one by one. (This worked well for me in other missions.) I had a T1 afterburner. I also added a cap recharger thingie. Unfortunately, they webbed me as soon as I started running. As I saw that they were out-damaging my reppers, I tried to warp...but couldn't because I was scrambled. (First time I ever had this happen in a mission.) Result: agonizing death.

Anyway, this is a serious question--I'd really like to learn to play "smart" instead of just piling on hit points when the going gets tough. What should I have done? If it's a matter of skill training, what skills should I train?

Thanks!

Teadrinker
Posted - 2007.02.08 18:50:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Teadrinker

So you think it is possible to do all the level 3s in a Thorax? That's intriguing...

I just realized that you said T2 cruiser, not my T1 Thorax. There were some other people who thought it was possible, so I'd like to direct this question to them.

Kery Nysell
Caldari
Nysell Incorporated
Posted - 2007.02.09 10:55:00 - [13]
 

Hmmmm ...

I think that a Thorax should be able to do level 3 missions, but with some problems : deadspace, so no MWD and half the bonuses of the ship thrown out of the window, but you really should fit a MEDIUM repairer (at least, maybe 2) and some good hardeners (the right ones for the mission, of course), 5 medium drones with good skills (preferably T2), and hope that your tank can hold long enough for your drones/railguns (maybe blasters, but with an AB at the most, you won't be able to dictate the range ...) to kill enough things to reduce the damage you take ...

You'll need some really high skills to do that tough, maxed/near maxed cap skills, armor tanking skills, gunnery, drones ...

A BC should be able to do every level 3 mission half-afk, IF you fit it right for the task (again, use the correct hardeners ...), and with less SPs than a Cruiser ...

Lady Loom
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.02.09 11:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kery Nysell
Originally by: Lady Loom
I cannot imagine a T1 frig surviving the missile spam of Guristas L2 missions TBH


Well, it's possible, I've done a bunch of level 2 "guristas" missions in my Condor (!!), without faction mods even (T2 Shield Booster, T2 AB, T2 BCS, 2xRockets Launchers and a T2 75mm rail), but it really depends on your skillpoints and on how well you know your ship and the mission you're doing ... I cannot do the "Stop the Thief" lvl 2 in my Condor, those 3 Mallers with the EM missiles are way too much for my unresisted shield, but all the others are doable (not easilly, of course).


I should have been a bit more precise, I meant *some* of the Guristas missions - since in most L2 missions you can easily just aggro a group of 3-4 ships, it's not really hard to avoid enemy fire (even though NPCs have this insane range on missiles), but I guess a more "average" player with less skillpoints will have a lot more trouble eg. in The Blockade with 20 frigs, destroyers and cruisers spamming missiles (of course the key is again to stay out of range or fly something that can easily tank the missile spam). That said, I need to try this Condor you speak of Wink

GRIEV3R
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2007.02.09 17:36:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: GRIEV3R on 09/02/2007 17:35:32
Very simple. If you're gallente, use a Brutix for lvl 3s. Don't waste time with trying to do them in a rax, it takes too much money and skill points. The reason you do lvl 3s is to gain enough standing to do lvl 4s, which is where the real money is. Therefore, you want to get through your mandantory lvl 3s as quickly and cheaply as possible, with minimum risk. With that mentality governing your style, you want to fit a brutix with 1 med rep II (t2 is a must here), high resists (not plates), and a full rack of 250mm rails. If you don't have the skills to fit them, train weapon upgrades, adv weap upgrades, and engineering. Those SP will not be wasted, because you will need them to fit a decent setup on a battleship as well. When you warp in, go out to your optimal (usually between 60 - 100km depending on how good your guns are and whether you use SBs and tracking computers in your meds to increase your range) before drawing agro. Ofc pack some short range ammo too for the occasional insta-agro shortrange fights. Most lvl 3 rats can't hit your over 70km, so you draw agro, then run away from them while shooting at them as they approach you. Using this tactic, you stay (mostly) out of range of thier guns, while they are coming straight at you with 0 transversal so your rails hit better. Sometimes, this tactic will result in a "diahrrea stream" of wreck stretched out over 300km - from your running away. but once you train the skills (which you're gonna need for a bs too), you can squeeze an AB II on there too, and then it's not that big a deal. Keep your drones in the bay and only use them to kill frigs that tackle & scramble, or once all the frigs are dead, to supplement your rail dmg on tough targets, like mercenary commanders or gistum primes.

This is my style for lvl 3s. Other methods may work just as well, but I had lots of success with this one. Only lost my ship twice, and that was because I got lazy and didnt kill the frigs, and then couldn't get away (because I had low skills and couldn't fit a strong tank and guns at the time). Just remember: you don't do lvl 3s for fun, or for challenge. That's what lvl 4s are for. You just want to get them done as quickly and safely as possible. ugh

Thaddeus Brutor
Posted - 2007.02.12 04:29:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Thaddeus Brutor on 12/02/2007 04:26:02
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
Lvl 3 - Battlecruiser all the way only the lowest of skill points can loose one of these here, a T2 cruiser is possible for high sp characters.


My take on L3's is a tad different. Many of the L3's can mean a dead battlecruiser (or lots of warping out). My goal in a mission running ship class is to be able to complete them without being forced to warp out. Taking, for example, L3 Pirate Invasion (Guristas)... the second pocket has some nasty groupings. One group is nine cruisers, which equals a steady stream of heavy missiles, several impacting per second. That's a lot of DPS to tank for an extended period. The next group (in the same pocket) is 5 cruisers, and 3 battlecruisers, which take 50% longer to pop, and shoot missiles even faster than the cruisers.

The point I'm trying to make is that a low-skill pilot taking a battlecruiser into a L3 should not go in expecting to smash the mission and leave (like a lo-skill cruiser can in L2 missions). For a low-skill pilot to walk all over L3s, a battleship is more realistic. The thing is, few pilots are low skill by the time they are running L3s. Now there's also L3's that are a walk in the park for a cruiser, let alone a battlecruiser.

Besides all basic and advanced learning to 4, I have Drones 5, Electronics 4, Targeting 4, Engineering 5, Energy Management 4, Energy Systems Operation 4, Gunnery 5, Controlled Burst 4, Medium Energy Turret 3, Afterburner 4, Fuel Conservation 4, Mechanic 4, Hull Upgrades 4, Repair Systems 4, Science 4, Battlecruiser 2. While I'm still entrenched in raising my core skills up, I'm not a low-skill pilot. In a Harbinger with two T2 MARs and two rat specific hardeners, I know full well there are still L3 missions I can be forced to warp out of. If I have to warp out, then my ship couldn't "handle" it. I might beat it, but for me, if I have to warp out and fly back through the pockets, the mission was too rough for my ship/fitting.

Nalar Marnith
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:00:00 - [17]
 

I found Pirate Invasion to be quite easy in my Cyclone. I had artillery fitted (best hits at around 30km) and heavy missles (hits from max targetting range approx 51km).

With some care getting agro (not much really) and an AB, I took out this entire mission without running my SBII, the only thing that wasn't T1 on my ship. The cruisers can't hit for crap at 30km, and taking out the frigs with heavy missles and drones worked well enough.

Maybe it's because it was the Angel (gisti) version there weren't as many missles... Either way, Portal to War was way harder as they're on you immediately when you arrive. Still, the AB will keep you out of harms way long enough to pop the webbing frigs.

Kacey Stingray
Caldari
Azure Horizon
Coalition Of Empires
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:32:00 - [18]
 

Minimum?

Level 1: Frigate - I haven't done L1 missions in probably about 9 months, but when I did do them, I did them all in a Condor. I didn't have much in the ways of SP either. If you're smart about missions, you can do all of them in a Frigate.

Level 2: Cruiser - I was successful in doing a LOT of them in a frigate but there were some that I just couldn't complete and got frustrated trying.

Level 3: Battlecruiser - I can do every L3 in a cruiser /except/ Mordus Headhunters which tears me a new one. Since you said 'all' missions, I'd say BC.

Level 4: Battleship - Though, admittedly, I haven't done many L4s. My time is limited a lot of times and I can't spend hours doing them.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:16:00 - [19]
 

If you have to warp out often (one warp per mission or more) then you shouldn't be doing that mission. If you have to do this on lots of missions you should be doing the next level down because you can't handle the ones you're on. Honestly, if you ever have to warp out due to tank problems then you're doing something wrong or arn't prepared to do the mission you're trying. I don't remember the last time I've had to warp out of a mission... it was half a year ago at least.

You have to ask yourself a question, do you do missions for fun, for isk, for LP, for faction or for some other reason? If you do them for fun then keep trying to use smaller ships as you get more SP's. If you do them for any other reason, use the largest, nastiest ship you can afford. It's all about completion time. If you're taking 2-3 times longer than most people to complete a mission then you're wasting your time. You'd actually make more money doing the next level down missions.

If dying is normal on missions for you then you're screwing up. You either don't have the skills, don't know how to fit your ship, have the wrong ship, or don't know how to fly your ship correctly. I havn't lost a ship to a mission since I was doing level 1's 4 days after I started out and they popped my frigate then my destroyer a few days later. I don't insure my ships because it would be a waste of money... I have 5 ships I fly and have had them all since I got the skills for them anywhere from 2 to 7 months ago. This should be the way it is for most people, except for the very rare server problem that causes you to die... if you're dying you need to figure out what you did wrong and fix it or find an easier mission.

Shallazar
Caldari
The Mercurial Order
Posted - 2007.02.12 15:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Teadrinker
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran


Lvl 3 - Battlecruiser all the way only the lowest of skill points can loose one of these here, a T2 cruiser is possible for high sp characters.
...
all of this is reliant on player skill (not sp) and fitting it, is perfectly possible to loose a BS to a lvl2 if you really try.


So you think it is possible to do all the level 3s in a Thorax? That's intriguing, I like the idea of doing as much as I can with as little as possible. But the level 3 mission I failed with my Thoraxen (R.I.P.) involved immediate massive incoming missile fire from about a dozen hostiles. (OK, I didn't actually have time to count them...)

First time, I tried tanking them with 800 mm armor, explosive and thermal active hardeners (all T1) and two small T2 reppers, and couldn't keep up with the damage. I was so involved trying to kill at least one of them that I didn't notice my cap was empty until it was too late. They chewed through what was left of my armor in seconds, and fini.

Second time, I decided to be foxy, and run like hell as soon as I warped in. I hoped to be able to outrun their fire, string them out and then pick them off one by one. (This worked well for me in other missions.) I had a T1 afterburner. I also added a cap recharger thingie. Unfortunately, they webbed me as soon as I started running. As I saw that they were out-damaging my reppers, I tried to warp...but couldn't because I was scrambled. (First time I ever had this happen in a mission.) Result: agonizing death.

Anyway, this is a serious question--I'd really like to learn to play "smart" instead of just piling on hit points when the going gets tough. What should I have done? If it's a matter of skill training, what skills should I train?

Thanks!


A cruiser 'webbed' on a lvl3 mission is probably one of the worse situations to be in. I've done quite a few lvl3 missions in a Moa, and all lvl3 missions in a Harpy(T2 & Gisti Booster). It's much quicker to do them in a Ferox (battlecruiser) and since I brought the new Drake recently, lvl3's are a walkover as the tank is so strong.

If you want to do them in a cruiser then I think you really need to fit for each mission based on what you will be facing. Beauty of using a battlecruiser on lvl3 is you can almost have one set-up that can be used on any lvl3, just changing a couple of modules at most.

So, if you know you are going to be facing frigates that might get close and web you, fit modules that can deal with them, such as your own webber or fast tracking turrets. You should then be able to get rid of them and whilst it might take you longer to kill cruisers, the adjusted strategy you be better. You might also have to give up the AB and adopt a strategy of closer range combat (you can benefit from Nos then for your reppers), and then use that free slot for something that will actually help against the webbing and scrambling frigs.

Smart thing to do in my opinion is get a battlecruiser and start getting good with it as you will need it for the harder lvl3's and lvl4's, which is where you want to be if nice loot and lots of iskies is what you want Wink

Shall.


 

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