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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.13 10:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 13/01/2007 10:32:03
I am fed up of hearing things along the lines of “And those people are also clueless and will never win pvp fights with those passive tanks, because they will either lack tackle ability, or they will have to kill their tank to be able to tackle.”

Not only that but I plan to get into a lot of PvP this year. So any tips on PvP would be appreciated along with what needs to be on a PvP setup. What’s a normal Myrmidon active tank setup like?

My first quick attempt.
http://www.dissonance-corp.com/Files/Myrmidonpvp.JPG

Fully passive, Nos immune, afterburner, warp scrabbler EM passive harder with lvl 0 skill so resistance can be boosted. Enough cap regen without Nos to use everything. HP/sec 211.8 solo. Shield Hitpoint buffer 9.5k and all the fittings are cheap T1 or T2.

How could it be improved? Would a full row of PDS for hitpoints be better? How important is Nos immune would 1 invul field and 1 EM active hardener be ok? It would make the tank much stronger but cap would be a problem under Nos.

Has anyone got or had any successful passive shield tanks for PvP?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.01.13 10:48:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 13/01/2007 10:55:38
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/01/2007 10:31:40
I am fed up of hearing things along the lines of “And those people are also clueless and will never win pvp fights with those passive tanks, because they will either lack tackle ability, or they will have to kill their tank to be able to tackle.”

Not only that but I plan to get into a lot of PvP this year. So any tips on PvP would be appreciated along with what needs to be on a PvP setup. What’s a normal Myrmidon active tank setup like?

My first quick attempt.
http://www.dissonance-corp.com/Files/Myrmidonpvp.JPG

Fully passive, Nos immune, afterburner, warp scrabbler EM passive harder with lvl 0 skill so resistance can be boosted. Enough cap regen without Nos to use everything. HP/sec 211.8 solo. Shield Hitpoint buffer 9.5k and all the fittings are cheap T1 or T2.

How could it be improved? Would a full row of PDS for hitpoints be better? How important is Nos immune would 1 invul field and 1 EM active hardener be ok? It would make the tank much stronger but cap would be a problem under Nos.

Has anyone got or had any successful passive shield tanks for PvP?
If my setup is bad for PvP please explain why instead of just saying it sucks.



If you are going for PvP and a passive tank, i would reserve the lows for damage mods and a DCU[though its probably already in there]. Since you dont need NOS to run your tank[400 normalized dps tank is pretty impresive] i would stick the biggest guns you can and an MWD.

Run it like a brutix with drones, 6 hybrid turrets and an MWD with 5 heavy drones


The real problem with the above setup is that it doesnt have a web and it doesnt have an MWD. The MWD isnt slot intensive so shouldnt be a big issue, but the web is.

Without a web you will have a hard time holding ships with an MWD. You can MWD after them, but that is cap dependant and they will likly have an injector.

The lows, with the blasters or AC's on top [AC's for even more cap independance and ease on the powergrid, blasters for damage], would be 3 damage mods, a DCU, and then an i-stab and a nano to close distances faster[and so you can outrun your target so long as it isnt a nano setup, reducing the need for the web].

Other options on top are NOS/NEUT heavy on the neut. This will drain your oponents cap[quite fast too] so that he cant run his propulsion mod and get away, it will also kill his tank, which is an added bonus.

Anyway.

nos/nos/nos/neut/neut/neut
mwd/20km scram/ whatever else your tank is
istab/istab/nano/nano/dcu/pds[trade PDS out for stabs/nanos if you are pg short]

5x ogres II[or sentry drones(gardes) if you are cheap or dont mind picking them up]

[whatever rigs you are using go here]

or

6x 220AC[425's if it fits]
mwd/20km scram/ whatever else your tank is
istab/nano/DCU/Gyro/Gyro/Gyro

5x ogres II[or sentry drones(gardes) if you are cheap or dont mind picking them up]

OR

6x Ion/Electron Blasters[whatever fits]
mwd/20km scram/ whatever else your tank is
istab/nano/dcu/mag stab/mag stab/mag stab

5x ogres II[or sentry drones(gardes) if you are cheap or dont mind picking them up]

Its a passive setup, so lean towards the gank setup, but the neut should be fairly strong as well, as lasers and hybrids need cap to run, and AC's are naturally weak against shields.

ed: Im getting about 68 damage/second raw regen on that shield. Are you sure its a 218 dps tank?

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2007.01.13 10:52:00 - [3]
 

Drake.

7x HML II
1x NOS

1x SCRAM
2x INVUL II
3x LSE II

2x PDS II
1x Shield Relay (One that gives you shield regen at expence of cap regen)
1x DC II

RIGS: 2x Shield regen, 1x Shield extender

With skills it's uber resists (BC lvl5) and shield around 23k with 350sec regen.

No other ship can be passively tanked in PvP than drake.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:02:00 - [4]
 

What about nos/neut/neut/neut/neut/neut or 2 nos in case I came across another nos ship. Then take a microwarp instead of AB like you say and you wouldn’t need a web to stop the other person running away. The hope drones do enough dps.

Abyssal Angel
Caldari
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:12:00 - [5]
 

I always enjoy reading your posts Pottsey, however unless I'm mistaken (and fi I am, m apologies) the tank on that myrmidon is not that high.

9923 shield with a 349 regen time.
9923/ 349 = 28.43 shield per second
real regen is: 28.43 x 2.5(think it's the correct max regen from your posts?) = 71.08 shield max regen /sec

With a 43% resist to EM it should be : 71.08 / 0.57 =124.7 DPS tanked.

This number seem very low for pvping.


However the myrm is a funny ship in the sense that it is a mini domi and can dish out damage almost like a domi(ooh gonna upset some peeps now).

The bonii on the myrm doesn't really benifit it for passive tanking as you know ofc, and it can wield a nice armortank.

For gang pvp the passively tanked myrm could indeed work, however fitting may be very tight.

I would drop webbing duty on my gang mates and focus on dishing out damage.

high: as many T2 neutrons with void as you can fit, or electrons if they clash horribly with the extenders.

Med: Shield extenders and an invuln field.

Low: 2 damage mod, mix of SPR and PDU's as to fit the cap usage.

Measuring DPS versus npc's is just plain wrong, but I'll do it anyway and this setup rocks the socks off Angels night and day.

I can't say the exact DPS, but I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of it, but it requires ofc some gunnery skills.

Keep the passive setups coming.


Oh on a sidenote ferrox with 5 heavy launcher and a drake, both passively tanked can trade missiles all day long ^^

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:13:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 13/01/2007 11:11:36
Originally by: Pottsey
What about nos/neut/neut/neut/neut/neut or 2 nos in case I came across another nos ship. Then take a microwarp instead of AB like you say and you wouldn’t need a web to stop the other person running away. The hope drones do enough dps.


Sentry drones cap out at about 375 DPS, heavy drones around 390. Which is plenty when your opponent cannot shoot back at you or run his tank. If you go full ion gank you will hit 850 or so DPS with a neutron setup[if it fits] around 900.[these are max numbers]

If your opponent can run his tank, 300 DPS should be ok.

I am still concerned your tank isnt as strong as you think it is.

The poster above is checking a full gank myrm. A 3 mag stab full gank myrm i will break down in a second. Its coming and the numbers above are for that.

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:19:00 - [7]
 

43% EM resist isn't enough.

1x nanophoon > Roughly 350ish damage per torp (w/ mjolnirs) = 1400 damage in a volley
1400 / 9500 = 14.7% of your shields. Will knock your shield from 38% -> 23% in a volley completely negating your peak recharge.


40% Kinetic resist is also balls.

1x Drake > 216 or so damage per Scourge Fury heavy missile = 1512 damage in a volley
1512 = 15.9% of your shields. Will knocks your shields from 38% -> 22% in a volley, again completely negating the peak charge.

Same for caracal/cerb etc

And any other alpha strike ship for that matter, 720 hurricane will overpower your passive tank in a few volleys.

High dps ships like the brutix and harbinger will kill ya before you can lock them :p
The tanking BC's will be able to tank your damage output for long enough to overpower your tank as well

Maybe you'll be able to kill non gank fitted thoraxes at least? LaughingYARRRR!!

Needs more buffer, and EM shield rigs may be wise. Actually a complete rebuild would be good with more attention paid to resistances.

Thor Ba'aleron
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:29:00 - [8]
 

IMO pvp tanks shouldn't be about regen, but about total absorption. Shield power relays in the lows leave you completely vulnerable to NOS, and even the most passive boats usually run some kind of active mod (scrambler, hardeners). If you cripple your cap with 3 shield power relays, you are never going to be able to tackle a battleship, as a few seconds of NOS will leave you capless.

Drake

7 Launchers
1 Medium Energy Neutralizer

2 Large Shield Extenders
1 20km scrambler
1 EM Hardener
1 Invulnerability Field
1 10mn Microwarp Drive

4 PDS

This works, and gives well over 14k in passive hardened shields. The PDS feed the Neutralizer and MWD, and give overall shield capacity, needed grid, and a reasonable level of regeneration. It won't passive tank as well as SPR versions, and it dosen't have a Ballistic, but it's a nice solo or small gang ship with a speed mod and decent dps. With a wingman, a battleship is no problem, and anything smaller (including T2 cruisers and frigs) is in deep ****.

Cs3Sl2
Caldari
SandStorm.
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:29:00 - [9]
 

The Vulture can boast a great passive tank with 5 L. Extender II's and an invul / photon T2. Slap 4 shield power relays in low and Shocked. Due to the T2 recharge time the tank is pretty impressive.

Altho the DPS on the vulture isn't that good to begin with, i may stick a ballistic control in low or something (my gun skills suck) not great for solo PvP but good for gang were you have some more DPS flying around

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:35:00 - [10]
 

O.K. I made a mistake above. Heavy drone numbers to come.

Assuming:

Medium Hybrid 5
Medium Blaster Spec 5
Gunnery 5
Rapid Fire 5
Surgical Strike 5
Drone Interfacing 5
Heavy Drones 5
Drone Spec 5
Battlecruiser 5

I.E. max skills:

All numbers at each stage are rounded from a non truncated number that continues on[so some discrepencies might be seen] in the calculations.

Neutron Blaster II 4.2dmg/5.25 rof
0.8 * 1.25 [med blasters]
1 * 1.15 [surg strike]
1.15 * 1.1 [med spec]
1.265 / 0.9 [Gunnery]
1.406 / 0.75 [Rapid Firing]
1.874 * 28 [ammo]
52.474 * 6 [Turrets]
314.84 * 1.23 [First Mag Stab]
387.26 * 1.2 [Second Mag Stab]
468.71 * 1.13 [Third Mag Stab]
=525.12[506.33 reloading]

+

Ogre II 1.92 dmg/2 rof
0.96 * 24 [Ammo]
23.04 * 2 [Drone Interfacting]
46.08 * 1.25 [Heavy Drones]
57.6 * 1.1 [Drone Specialization]
63.36 * 1.5 [Ship bonus]
95.04 * 5 [Number of ships]
=475.2

Total 475.2+525.12 = 1000.32 [981.53 when reloading]



I dont think you will have the PG for that, tough an ION setup has similar "omg damage" potential, capping at 967 DPS.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Copine Callmeknau

High dps ships like the brutix and harbinger will kill ya before you can lock them :p
The tanking BC's will be able to tank your damage output for long enough to overpower your tank as well



Please, the Myrmadon will completly out-gank the gankiest of harbingers.

Dexter Rast
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:54:00 - [12]
 

passive regen tanks on slow ships have no place in PvP, the only way a passive tanked ship becomes valid is when its coupled with speed to negate the real damage,

for lower end NPC`ing passive tanks can be 4tw, but as far as doing passive setups and crunching the numbers which looks good on paper, sadly these ships just dont cut it when required to PvP

Calprimus
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2007.01.13 12:12:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Thor Ba'aleron
IMO pvp tanks shouldn't be about regen, but about total absorption. Shield power relays in the lows leave you completely vulnerable to NOS, and even the most passive boats usually run some kind of active mod (scrambler, hardeners). If you cripple your cap with 3 shield power relays, you are never going to be able to tackle a battleship, as a few seconds of NOS will leave you capless.

Drake

7 Launchers
1 Medium Energy Neutralizer

2 Large Shield Extenders
1 20km scrambler
1 EM Hardener
1 Invulnerability Field
1 10mn Microwarp Drive

4 PDS

This works, and gives well over 14k in passive hardened shields. The PDS feed the Neutralizer and MWD, and give overall shield capacity, needed grid, and a reasonable level of regeneration. It won't passive tank as well as SPR versions, and it dosen't have a Ballistic, but it's a nice solo or small gang ship with a speed mod and decent dps. With a wingman, a battleship is no problem, and anything smaller (including T2 cruisers and frigs) is in deep ****.


Question:
with a 20Km scram the launchers....would you advice assault or normal?

Thx

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.13 14:50:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 13/01/2007 14:59:33
“I always enjoy reading your posts Pottsey, however unless I'm mistaken (and fi I am, m apologies) the tank on that myrmidon is not that high.”
No your not mistaken. Some where along the lines I messed up either the screenshot is the wrong one or I muddle some notes up. Now to find out where I went wrong. Going to try a complete re work based on various comments.





“I dont think you will have the PG for that,”
Going to try PDS over relays so PG shouldn’t be a problem. CPU could be.


EDIT: I found the mistake. I uploaded the wrong screenshot. The screenshot had 3 PDS T2 fitted and 3 empty low slots in the first post. Along with empty mid slots. http://www.dissonance-corp.com/Files/Myrmidonpvp1.JPG still doesn’t match my first post need to play around more.


Abyssal Angel
Caldari
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2007.01.13 16:55:00 - [15]
 

cool nice to know I'm not totally ******ed (shut up fellow corpsemates).

WE demand more passively tanked PVP setups.!

Donmadefy
Posted - 2007.01.13 17:54:00 - [16]
 

I did a theoretical setup on a Jaguar, and got a recharge rate of around 50hp/s I think, I haven't taken into account any resistances, nor does that setup include gang or implant bonuses. I think there was enough grid and cpu to put some modicum of autocannons on it. Tanking and some offense, regardless of cap.

Majin82
Caldari
The 5th Freedom
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.01.13 18:05:00 - [17]
 

Drake

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Faint Warp Prohibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Rigs : Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Extender I \

13576 shield, 80.71/s, E/T/K/Ex=58/66/75/83
4491 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/44/25/10
2948.5517348966923 cap, +17.18/s, -26.74/s
969.0 m/s

Lots of speed, Nos and tackling gear!

Kazire
Posted - 2007.01.13 19:23:00 - [18]
 

Pottsey, I apologize i wont post my pvp set up here. I am prolly a rare breed. I solo pirate in what everyone else says is impossible to do, A passive tanked ship. Not only do i have success at it, but unless im am fighting 5+ or more ships I dont lose. Granted, i run into issues where i run out of cap and cant lock someone down (normally when facing at least a bs nos boat and friends) but its they that have to run when they are out of cap boosters, not me.

In general though with my passive tanked set up (completely passive). I dont like to fight single targets, cuase they arent much a fight. I prefer gangs or fighting other 1-3 year vets in their pvp set ups.

If you want to talk in-game, i will discuss my set up with you.

Thor Ba'aleron
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2007.01.14 09:18:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Question:
with a 20Km scram the launchers....would you advice assault or normal?



Normal. The Drake does not get a range bonus and 10-12k range isn't enough. Heavies can hit from 80km, that's a huge bonus when flying in a gang.

And to the guy with 2 Invuln II's and 3 rigs on his pvp ship? I guess you never lose... hard to justify 2-300m in fittings on a tech 1 pvp ship.

Jackal79
Posted - 2007.01.14 09:30:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Majin82
Drake

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Faint Warp Prohibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Rigs : Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Extender I \

13576 shield, 80.71/s, E/T/K/Ex=58/66/75/83
4491 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/44/25/10
2948.5517348966923 cap, +17.18/s, -26.74/s
969.0 m/s

Lots of speed, Nos and tackling gear!


That setup will cost you like 300 million - don't you think thats a bit extreme considering the cost of the stock ship?

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2007.01.14 10:32:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 14/01/2007 10:30:27
Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 14/01/2007 10:30:18
Drake Gank:

Highs 7x Heavy II Scourge Furies
Mids: 20k, ABII, 2x Invuln 2 2x LSE II
Lows: I-Stab, 3xBCS II

Rigs: 3x Core Defence Field Extender

20k shields 350 Raw DPS

Only dies to groups like this Linkage

This was my undock and kill things setup. Energy neutralisers. They make me cry :(. Only 3 seconds off dock agro wearing off.

EDIT: Also with regards to pimping out T1 ships... The Drake is dying out to be fitted well. I've killed so many drakes with sub par setups it makes me cry, it really does. If you're going to fight in a ship like this then you should go all in to get the most out of it.

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2007.01.15 08:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Thor Ba'aleron
And to the guy with 2 Invuln II's and 3 rigs on his pvp ship? I guess you never lose... hard to justify 2-300m in fittings on a tech 1 pvp ship.


My friend lost his 3rd Drake fitted as I said in my previous posts (And I lost T2 fitted IshtarLaughing). Shows that my alliance/corp is bunch of hauler gankers scared of real PvP Rolling Eyes

Ice Conch
Exit 13
Posted - 2007.01.15 09:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Thor Ba'aleron
And to the guy with 2 Invuln II's and 3 rigs on his pvp ship? I guess you never lose... hard to justify 2-300m in fittings on a tech 1 pvp ship.


My friend lost his 3rd Drake fitted as I said in my previous posts (And I lost T2 fitted IshtarLaughing). Shows that my alliance/corp is bunch of hauler gankers scared of real PvP Rolling Eyes
all it shows is that you dont know how to pick your fights...

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2007.01.15 10:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Ice Conch
all it shows is that you dont know how to pick your fights...


If thats you Samirol, why on earth you troll me? You should know better than people blob us and use bait because they cannot go against us with fair numbers. Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

mmm cheese
Posted - 2007.01.15 11:14:00 - [25]
 

Vulture

Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Gist B-Type Photon Scattering Field
Invulnerability Field II

Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Power Diagnostic System II

Rigs : Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \

22759 shield, 166.95/s, E/T/K/Ex=83/89/84/78
4624 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/86/62/10
3937.4998211860657 cap, +8.57/s, -19.617/s
19.0 m/s
0.0 DPS

How dos this look? I was contemplating dropping an additional EM rig and adding a second purger, but EM resistances would have been too low for my liking.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.15 11:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Ice Conch
all it shows is that you dont know how to pick your fights...


If thats you Samirol, why on earth you troll me? You should know better than people blob us and use bait because they cannot go against us with fair numbers. Rolling EyesRolling Eyes


If you spend 300 mil on a ship that a megathron with 50-70 mil in fitting can easily rip though dont you think thats just a waste of money...

Some good loot though Cool

Shadrin
Gallente
Viper Intel Squad
Pure.
Posted - 2007.01.15 18:14:00 - [27]
 

lol yeah you gotta be in total live with the ship to fit it like that

Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
Posted - 2007.01.15 18:44:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Sir Bart on 15/01/2007 18:42:48
Originally by: Kuolematon
Drake.

7x HML II
1x NOS

1x SCRAM
2x INVUL II
3x LSE II

2x PDS II
1x Shield Relay (One that gives you shield regen at expence of cap regen)
1x DC II

RIGS: 2x Shield regen, 1x Shield extender

With skills it's uber resists (BC lvl5) and shield around 23k with 350sec regen.

No other ship can be passively tanked in PvP than drake.


Very impressive tank, I estimated it at around 530 dps, enough to tank a domi's 5 heavy drones forever.... nice ship if you are fighting domi's. Just as long as he doesn't have guns instead of nos in the highs... b/c you'd die.

-Bart

Edit: actually domi's drones do about 570 dps iirc... and his nos would turn off your t2 hardeners in the first 30 seconds of the fight.... nm, you'd die no matter what.

Kazire
Posted - 2007.01.15 23:59:00 - [29]
 

some of you dont apparently understand what a passive shield tank is. I see too many active mods on these set ups.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2007.01.16 01:17:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Kazire
some of you dont apparently understand what a passive shield tank is. I see too many active mods on these set ups.

It doesn't have to be 100% passive, specially not if you have a nos or two, that's more than enough to run your hardeners if you time it right, even if nossed yourself.


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