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tiberiusric
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.08 14:20:00 - [1]
 

i think i know but was wondering exactly how to do it ?
thanks
richard

Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Posted - 2007.01.08 14:47:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Splagada on 08/01/2007 14:44:39
killing all but one ship, so the spawn comes back faster

you chain belts like that

it doesnt change the spawn type, but makes the same come back

i prefer variety over quantity so i hate to do that, but that's clearly just me Wink

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2007.01.08 14:53:00 - [3]
 

I tried with 8x Tractor beams but the belt still wouldn't move Sad

Mmm imagine chaining those Veldspar roids in Amarr... sweet thought.

Unakrsna Vatra
Posted - 2007.01.08 14:54:00 - [4]
 

Example: you run onto 3 bs and 2-3 support ship spawn. Kill all bses and leave at least 1 support, then the same spawn will occur after some time. When I run onto Sansha Tyrant spawn (most valuable), I always chain it.

Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.01.08 15:29:00 - [5]
 

Chaining has one obvious downside though: It kills spawn rate and quality. If you're in desperate need of ISK, chain but otherwise don't since the effects of chaining can be felt for the duration of several weeks in the system you've been chaining in. For example when I was in FLA we had one macroratter (is it allowed to name them on the forums btw?) who chained one system for about a week and it one corporation's full effort of two weeks to get the system back to proper spawn rates and quantities. What the latter means is that in time the spawns get very, very bad so when you're chaining, you won't be getting the 1.5M+ bs:es as much as you'd get when you just kill everything.

Also remember that high spawn rate means more faction spawns and eventually even officer spawns.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.01.08 15:32:00 - [6]
 

Chaining and respawining are two different things.

What we call chaining today is actually respawning. Kill all of a spawm but 1 unit and it will respawn the rest.

So what is chaining then? Well, a long long time ago, when you killed all but 1 unit in a belt, the remainder respawned faster and faster. Eventually they respawned as fast as you could shoot them.

This bug was ignored untill some smartass relised that if he went into a belt that had a bunch of frigs, and fitted smartbombs so that it would kill all frigs bar 1-2 that were orbiting him, due to smartbomb range, he could make 20 gazillion a hour afk. and if left afk overnight every night........

Fester Addams
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.01.08 19:44:00 - [7]
 

The origin of the name chaining is to be found far far into the past of this game.

Originally when you fought NPC's in astroid belts and saved a single ship from the spawn the spawn would start respawning faster and faster.

I cant remember the exact time it took to get a chain "going" but very soon a new rat would spawn almost instantly after one was killed.

It is true that like now you would only see the same NPC spawn come back again and again and again but the respawn time would rival cosmos archeology/hacking fields.

Only way to break a chain was to kill all ships before new spawned or warp away and allow the spawn to get bored of the astroid belt and "move on".

My best guess is that it was coded this way so that you would not be able to kill off all but one ship in a spawn and mine safelly after that (a method that is frequently used today) as the miner can easilly tank the NPC left alive and can fast take out any ships that respawn.

Unfortunatelly players are very resourcefull and soon found a way to make a disadvantage into an advantage :)

Anyhow, chaining a belt today...
I actually dont know if it still works, I periodically hear rumors that it is still possible to get a chain going but that it takes a long time, personally I think its not possible anymore.

So that was wat chaining a belt used to be, in what way the name is used today I have no Idea.

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.01.08 20:14:00 - [8]
 

i have done chaining recently, was trying to get a wreck farming going, and it sucks now.

Basically i have a 2 cruiser 3 frig spawn, and i killed all but one frig and let ti shoot me, 30 min later the cruisers re-spawned, repeated, 25m later they spawned again..

I timed it, and yes each iteration spawned 5m faster each cycle. I don't know if it gets down to 0 or not.
I got it down to 15m between before I gave up bored..

30 + 25 + 20 + 15 + 10 + 5 = 1h 45m to get your spawns really fast.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.01.09 00:21:00 - [9]
 

There is also the fact that after some time the rats de-spawn (or un-spawn or call it whatever)... I am not sure after how much time, but I'd wager it is the typical 2-hour that is encountered in some other game mechanics, so obviously even if chain works it is of course more limited.
And yes, rats despawn even under your nose, it has happened to me several times. Worst case I heard was a guy that brought Estamel at 1/4 on the hull, and he vanished... freakish... he thought it was a bug (that he had killed Estamel and he didn't drop loot) so he petitioned it, but no, it was despawn...

WildAmishRose
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.09 01:04:00 - [10]
 

It Takes Prohibatively long to start a chain now, about 3 - 4 hours into a 1.8m spawn I managed to get it to the point where it would pop 2 BSs followed 5 minutes later by 3 BSs, then 20 minutes later it would pop the 2 BSs again. But it takes an awful, awful long time to get that kind of chain going.

Basically just kill the battleships and only the battleships and the spawn rate will increase slowly over time.

Admai Sket
Posted - 2007.01.09 03:08:00 - [11]
 

I'm confused - most of the posters seem to have posted contradictions to each other.


Can someone sensible like Dark post the actually meaning and stuff? :-P


gfldex
Posted - 2007.01.09 05:51:00 - [12]
 

Here are my findings.

Any spawn got a probability to spawn. As bigger the spawn as lower that probability. The true sec status seams to modify it. If a system got -1 you can have a tripple 1.85M spawn right after DT.

No system can have more then six spawns where one of them allways be a cruiser spawn. Any spawn that gets wiped will respawn as the same or a different spawn. The same randomness depending on true sec status is taken into account.

That's the key to good spawns. If you kill all bad spawns and keep all good spawn you will end up with only good spawns and one cruiser spawn. I can remember a day where we had 3x tripple 1.85M spawns and 2x 1.55M spawns in the same system 3 hours after DT. That lasted for about 6 hours. Our corp wallet was ticking up like mad. :) The maximum number of spawns per system depends on the number of belts. Whereby a six belt system will have less then six spawns. I can't provide exact numbers here.

Any spawn seams to have four timers. One for relocating into another belt, one for a full respawn, one for despawning and there is one timer for each NPC to respawn. The full respawn timer seams to reset the single NPC respawn timer.

There are further two known bugs. There can be spawns that are spawned in belt A but appear in belt B. They will MWD from belt B to A what will not be finished befor DT. You can and should intercept and kill them. That will fix that bug for this round.

Rats can also park themself into the sun. This bug is really ugly. We know this for sure because befor Revelations we where able to scan them with the direction scanner. I was even able to MWD in 3 nights into the middle and the sun and "activated" all spawns parking there. What means they got bumped out of the middle of the sun like it happends with my player ship. This was not a workaround for this bug. They simply stay where they stop from that bump.

Warping into and outto a belt seams to override the relocate timer. You can even force a spawn out of a belt where they shoot a player into yours if you got a lot friends in pods. Warp around in the target belt like mad and you will pull a (random) spawn over. It can be the spawn that is chained by somebody else.

Activating a mining laser on a roid (dont has to be in a belt, it works in missions to) can spawn/relocate spawns too. You can even force a spawn/relocate with a basic miner if you got a spare high slot. That's a good trick if some selfish players "claim" spawns and you can't shoot them.

Gates can have spawns too and they respawn but with a much slower rate. All timers apply too but the warp trigger probability seams to be higher. Sometimes you can watch them "follow" you from one gate to another. How many gate spawns a system can have I dont know. There are not that many system where you can investigate this.

I could never observate increasing spawn rates. For me it seams to be pretty random.

Be carefull with player observations. The human brain is an incredible effective pattern matching machine. It can find patterns where no patterns are at all. If you want to code smart patterns are hard. A simple timer initialized with a random number is easy and programmers are lazy. I have heard so many stupid myths about spawns like that left over cans lower spawn rates. It's like with all myths. There is a simple answer but ppl preferre the myths because it fits their needs better.

hotgirl933
Posted - 2007.01.09 07:49:00 - [13]
 

its fully 100% random

Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.01.09 15:44:00 - [14]
 

There does seem to be a lot of different opinions on how rat spawns and chaining works, so I may as well throw my observations in. I rat several hours a day usually, and have for the past few months.

First off, this despawn that people have mentioned, I've never seen it. I've seen rats disappear from a belt I'm in, plenty of times, but they have always been found in a different belt or at a gate. As stated before, rats seem to have a rotation schedule. They stick around somewhere for a certain amount of time, then randomly move to another belt or a gate. Sucks for the guy that "lost" Estamel, but, in my experience anyway, chances are Estamel just moved to another belt or a gate. I sometimes also wonder if they rotate to hidden belts as well.

I've also not seen where chaining has any noticeable long-term impact on rat spawn quality or quantity, apart from the intended respawning of chained rats. Yes, chaining DOES decrease your chances of hauler, faction and officer spawns, as each belt you have chained is one less "dice" you are throwing to try to spawn something rare. However, at the end of the night, before I log off, I usually break all the chains (by killing everything), wait a bit, then run through the belts again. I have gotten many faction and hauler spawns this way. I also disbelieve that chaining has a negative effect on rat spawns because we used to have a logoffski Chinese farmer that chained EVERYTHING, everyday, until we apparently harassed him enough he decided to head for greener pastures. Yes, I know he was Chinese, I copied the logs of the few occasions he ranted at us in local, and had a Chinese/American friend look at them. The rats spawned while he was there and since he has left have not changed in any perceivable way.

Now, the best way I've found to chain is to first set a threshold. Pick a certain bounty below which you will kill all the rats, and above which you will chain. If there are other people ratting in the area, let them know and work together on it. The fastest way to screw up chaining rats is for someone unaware of what you are trying to do coming in and breaking the chains by killing the rat you have designated as the respawner. Where I live, the 2 biggest bounty rats are 800k and 950k. Yeah, not the greatest, but when you can chain dual 800's and dual 950's in a bunch of belts it can add up pretty quick. There are rats that are less, like 500k and 650k, but I generally don't chain those - I hold out for the top 2 regular spawns I can get. One thing to note, you cannot chain any of the rare spawns - haulers, faction and the like. Trust me, I have tried. Very Happy

Once you come across a spawn you want to chain, kill all but one of the smallest rats in that spawn. The last rat there, the one you don't kill, carefully put that rat into either armor or structure damage. I chain Guristas, who do not repair armor, so I usually put them into armor damage. If your rats repair armor, you will want to put them into structure. I find the easiest way to do this is using drones - just call them off a bit before you actually want them to stop attacking the rat. Once that is done, move on to the next belt. Rinse and repeat.

This way, if you come into a belt and see a rat sitting there with armor/structure damage, you know not to attack that rat, as he is your respawner.

There are some other neat tricks you can pull with chaining. For example, after getting a Drake, I wanted a full rack of Arbalest heavy missile launchers. I changed my chaining habits, focusing on chaining rats that drop heavy launchers instead of rats that have high bounties. I would imagine this could be done with any rat that drops a specific kind of module you are after.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Have fun, get out there and kill those soulless NPCs!

ugh

El Marchetto
Posted - 2007.01.09 16:48:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: gfldex

Be carefull with player observations. The human brain is an incredible effective pattern matching machine. It can find patterns where no patterns are at all. If you want to code smart patterns are hard. A simple timer initialized with a random number is easy and programmers are lazy. I have heard so many stupid myths about spawns like that left over cans lower spawn rates. It's like with all myths. There is a simple answer but ppl preferre the myths because it fits their needs better.



Yes indeed, yes indeed, yes indeed...Shocked

Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.01.09 17:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fester Addams

Anyhow, chaining a belt today...
I actually dont know if it still works, I periodically hear rumors that it is still possible to get a chain going but that it takes a long time, personally I think its not possible anymore.


I've had it happen once.

950k rats, there were 3 of them, and 2 frigates. I killed 2 of the bs and immediately another appeared. I killed that one and another appeared. I was in the middle of killing that one when another 2 more appeared. I wasn't exactly set up for 5 or 6 BS to be shooting me at the time and after about 5 minutes I had to warp out. When I came back there were 5 BS there, I killed them one by one and they never reappeared. It's a pity, else I'd have been there all night XD

Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.01.09 17:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Beef Hardslab
and the like. Trust me, I have tried. Very Happy

Once you come across a spawn you want to chain, kill all but one of the smallest rats in that spawn. The last rat there, the one you don't kill, carefully put that rat into either armor or structure damage. I chain Guristas, who do not repair armor, so I usually put them into armor damage. If your rats repair armor, you will want to put them into structure. I find the easiest way to do this is using drones - just call them off a bit before you actually want them to stop attacking the rat. Once that is done, move on to the next belt. Rinse and repeat.

This way, if you come into a belt and see a rat sitting there with armor/structure damage, you know not to attack that rat, as he is your respawner.

There are some other neat tricks you can pull with chaining. For example, after getting a Drake, I wanted a full rack of Arbalest heavy missile launchers. I changed my chaining habits, focusing on chaining rats that drop heavy launchers instead of rats that have high bounties. I would imagine this could be done with any rat that drops a specific kind of module you are after.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Have fun, get out there and kill those soulless NPCs!

ugh


Actually you dont need to kill all but one. Say you have a tripple cruiser tripple 1.85m spawn (rare but I've had them). Just kill the battleships. The spawns seem to respawn randomly, ie if there's 3 frigs and 2 BS, you kill 2 frigs and 2 bs leaving one frig, the chances of the next rat respawning are 50/50 a frigate or 50/50 a battleship.
Sice they seem to respawn roughly 5-10 mins apart you may as well make them all battleships instead of half of them being worthless :)

Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.01.09 17:29:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ralara
Actually you dont need to kill all but one. Say you have a tripple cruiser tripple 1.85m spawn (rare but I've had them). Just kill the battleships. The spawns seem to respawn randomly, ie if there's 3 frigs and 2 BS, you kill 2 frigs and 2 bs leaving one frig, the chances of the next rat respawning are 50/50 a frigate or 50/50 a battleship.
Sice they seem to respawn roughly 5-10 mins apart you may as well make them all battleships instead of half of them being worthless :)


Every time I have chained spawns, whatever was in the original spawn is what respawns. So, if there are 3 frigs and 2 battleships, and I kill any of them or all but one, the ones that I have killed are what respawn. I've never seen something respawn in a chain that wasn't in the original rat group.

Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.01.11 02:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Beef Hardslab
Originally by: Ralara
Actually you dont need to kill all but one. Say you have a tripple cruiser tripple 1.85m spawn (rare but I've had them). Just kill the battleships. The spawns seem to respawn randomly, ie if there's 3 frigs and 2 BS, you kill 2 frigs and 2 bs leaving one frig, the chances of the next rat respawning are 50/50 a frigate or 50/50 a battleship.
Sice they seem to respawn roughly 5-10 mins apart you may as well make them all battleships instead of half of them being worthless :)


Every time I have chained spawns, whatever was in the original spawn is what respawns. So, if there are 3 frigs and 2 battleships, and I kill any of them or all but one, the ones that I have killed are what respawn. I've never seen something respawn in a chain that wasn't in the original rat group.

heh no I mean, they dont all respawn at the same time, they come one by one normally. If you leave all but one frig, one of those "slots" that respawns will be one of the frigs you killed. Just leave all 3 frigs. That way the BS respawn faster. Let's say over a 20 minute period the entire spawn comes back, one every 5 mins. If you only kill the BS then over 10 mins the 2 bs appear and the frigs dont need to take up a "respawn slot" so to speak since they weren't killed.

that make more sense?

Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.01.11 14:51:00 - [20]
 

Ahh I gotcha. I guess I don't do that just because the systems I rat in have a ton of belts, so everything is usually respawned by the time I do a lap around the belts. Definitely makes sense though if you can clear the belts before rats respawn.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.03.26 00:58:00 - [21]
 

I guess there's not much to add.

However..
I find it fascinating - and alarming to see how much time players put into exploiting game mechanics.

Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2007.03.26 01:04:00 - [22]
 

so why necro the subject then Evil or Very Mad

Jex Jast
Go for the booty
Posted - 2007.03.26 01:05:00 - [23]
 

I accidentally respawned/chained (don't know which, didn't have them come back more than twice) a couple of Guristas Saboteurs because I couldn't finish off their Executor counterparts fast enough...

Hey leave me alone I was in a Merlin.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.03.26 17:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
so why necro the subject then Evil or Very Mad
Because there's a search function and this thread isn't like two years old, it's two months. That's hardly what I'd call a necro.

Steve Bennett
Ship Removal Company
Posted - 2007.03.27 03:03:00 - [25]
 

gfidex is pretty much absolutely right. Read his post and learn.

I'd like to add that chaining (respawning) spawns got semi-nerfed in RMR (I think it was) when they made the "moving" rate of spawns higher. I used to be able to chain a spawns for many cycles (more than 4) and keep timers (notepad FTW) for each spawn/belt, ie: Belt 4 will respawn approx 14:07, Belt 5 at 14:13, etc. However, after RMR I found that the spawns would move after 1 to 2 respawns. This wasn't affected by others 'pulling' the spawns, as I would be alone. The spawns wouldn't go away, they'd just move to another belt/gate. This had always happened, just not so rapidly. The result was that you couldn't get 4 or 5 really nice spawns, and just cycle through them - you'd have to keep finding them, which takes time and reduces income rate.

Also, spawns will "split" after a while. That is, a triple BS spawn may respawn with a double-bs (and 2-3 frig/cruiser support) while the remaining single-bs would end up at another belt, also with support. Same number of BS, just different belts. This pattern is based on the fact that it would be the same type of ships - although I admit that the single bs at the other belt could be coincidence.

A good chainer will always keep clearing the 'garbage' (killing cheap spawns completely), thus increasing the system's average quality of spawn. New spawns will take their place, and the quality of the new spawn doesn't seem to have anything to do with the spawns already there. It takes time to cultivate (as I like to call it) a system, but once you've got it going well, that system becomes very profitable, and your corpmates can take over for you after you log. Unfortunatley, all it takes is one idiot to come & kill everything and ruin a lot of effort.

The downside to chaining, as mentioned, is that the more you kill spawns completely, the higher chances you have of getting a faction/officer spawn. To be honest though, even when chaining, I'm usually clearing out > 50% of the belts I come to, so there's still a good chance of getting them.

In my experience, spawn speeds do not increase anymore... Its around 15-25 minutes I find.

james56
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.09 11:50:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Once you come across a spawn you want to chain, kill all but one of the smallest rats in that spawn. The last rat there, the one you don't kill, carefully put that rat into either armor or structure damage. I chain Guristas, who do not repair armor, so I usually put them into armor damage.


A small answer to everyone that hates chain killers and how to stop them

Everyone that rats in a more serious manner knows how irritating it is when other people come into your system and screw up your spawns. I've had this a few times even once where there was someone who did not speak english which was very irritating. But i've noticed the best way to solve this is to put up 2 small cans, anchor them 100km from all gates and tell them the rules for chaining. so for example that they have to leave alone all rats that have armor damage so they know that you are chaining the belt. That way they can also indicate that they are chaining a belt. The system I use is now only used by people who chain the system, usually 2 of us sharing a system chaining all good belts. That way everyone makes loads of isk and doesn't get mad and it keeps everyone that wants to get faction spawns away.The system I use is 1 jump from an outpost so we get a lot of traffic, and I hated keeping telling everyone that i'm chaining which is how i got the can idea. Only problem is that with a war they know there are ratters around and will camp the system with 1 or 2 people.

Alita Tiphares
Aztek Industries
Posted - 2007.05.09 12:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: james56
Quote:
Once you come across a spawn you want to chain, kill all but one of the smallest rats in that spawn. The last rat there, the one you don't kill, carefully put that rat into either armor or structure damage. I chain Guristas, who do not repair armor, so I usually put them into armor damage.


A small answer to everyone that hates chain killers and how to stop them

Everyone that rats in a more serious manner knows how irritating it is when other people come into your system and screw up your spawns. I've had this a few times even once where there was someone who did not speak english which was very irritating. But i've noticed the best way to solve this is to put up 2 small cans, anchor them 100km from all gates and tell them the rules for chaining. so for example that they have to leave alone all rats that have armor damage so they know that you are chaining the belt. That way they can also indicate that they are chaining a belt. The system I use is now only used by people who chain the system, usually 2 of us sharing a system chaining all good belts. That way everyone makes loads of isk and doesn't get mad and it keeps everyone that wants to get faction spawns away.The system I use is 1 jump from an outpost so we get a lot of traffic, and I hated keeping telling everyone that i'm chaining which is how i got the can idea. Only problem is that with a war they know there are ratters around and will camp the system with 1 or 2 people.


Or you can just kill them. That'll teach em.

max bygraves
Posted - 2007.05.09 12:38:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ather Ialeas
the effects of chaining can be felt for the duration of several weeks in the system you've been chaining in.


I think your imagining things m8, I chain BS spawns and kill the entire smaller( b/c,Frig,Cruiser) spawns, and we get TS and Officers daily.

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2007.05.09 12:45:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: max bygraves
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
the effects of chaining can be felt for the duration of several weeks in the system you've been chaining in.


I think your imagining things m8, I chain BS spawns and kill the entire smaller( b/c,Frig,Cruiser) spawns, and we get TS and Officers daily.


From base levels if you solo ratting out in 0.0 it can take a couple of hours to get to the top level spawn but once its there its just the regular matter of chaining, if you semi afk rat like I do occassionaly (eye on local always) I get a fast respawning bs spawn and sit in the same belt taking my time killing each bs by the time i finish one the other usually spawns.

Sinder Ohm
Demonic Corp
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2007.05.09 13:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: gfldex

A very imformative post!



One thing I must add with the "cans" wrecks now days, if a belt gets too clutered with wrecks the rats either dont spapwn, spawn very very slow or thier quality decreases.

It has happend so many times that I enter a belt that is full of wrecks cos someone was too lazy to loot so after I killed all thier cans suddenly the belt starts spawning propley again.

Once again @ gfldex very good explination Very Happy


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