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Secretary
Bargain consumables
Posted - 2007.01.05 16:09:00 - [181]
 

Amiable Quin has a very good point.

I believe his solution is not drastic enough there should be 4 fewer months in the year. because i want it that way.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.01.05 16:26:00 - [182]
 

You know I said it before and Ima going to say it again. Good thing CCP is smarter then the average poster in this thread. I really hated playing when 1500 people were on.




Nite Angelus
Gallente
Grave Diggers
Sparta Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.05 16:36:00 - [183]
 

So far i haven't seen a single good reason to tax npc corps. The argument about risk vs rewards is probably the closest thing to a thought out response in this thread. Why should they get all the benefits of running missions or mining without getting taxed or the risk of being attacked? Well it depends what kind of rewards you are looking for, aside from the obvious monetary aspects like high end rats and ores in 0.0 or maybe access to cheaper T2 items and ships. My reward from being in a player corporation come from playing the game with a group of like minded people while working to a common goal. That is something that you just don't get in an npc corp. So i honestly don't think that the benefits of being in an npc corp are in fact so great. In fact i wouldn't go back to empire even if you payed me.

In the end it comes down to the fact that everyone in eve pays to play the game. This means they can play the game however they want. If they want to play by themselves then fine. You say it's not a solo game, it is if they want to play it that way. Even if they want to be griefers, fair enough, their choice. The only people who have any right to tell people how they should play the game are the devs, and while they're not obliged to do what the players want, it's certainly in their interest.

Malibu Stacey
Gallente
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2007.01.05 16:56:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Iyanah
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Does it make sense?


i'd say 25%

you really want to move people out of NPC corps, and into the real world, as such a huge tax like 25% would make a player owned corp extremely attractive, regardless of it's tax rate. players often leave their corps when a tax rate is introduced because they don't want to loose that 5% of their earnings, when in actual fact they'd never notice the drop.


I agree with that.
Something between 15% and 25% tax on all NPC corps except the 12 newbie school corps but characters are kicked from the newbie school corp if they're still in it after 3 months of playing (and anyone who's been in a newbie school corp for 3 months+ if this was implemented should get kicked into a racial NPC corp straight away).

Too many whiners on this thread are scared that CCP might just listen to a good suggestion by some players (for a change) & take away their easy street.

Amiable Quinn
Minmatar
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.01.05 17:04:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Malibu Stacey


Too many whiners on this thread are scared that CCP might just listen to a good suggestion by some players (for a change) & take away their easy street.


You make me giggle.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.01.05 17:11:00 - [186]
 


0% for 2 months as a rookie, then I'd say increase it to 20, increasing 10% for every month served in the NPC corp after that.

People should not be able to hide in NPC corps without a price.


Nite Angelus
Gallente
Grave Diggers
Sparta Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.05 17:13:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Nite Angelus on 05/01/2007 17:15:13
Hide from what exactly?

SolidDread
Posted - 2007.01.05 18:13:00 - [188]
 

I love my noob NPC corp. I love the people in it. The tax rate isnt a big part in why I stay, but if it was raised I might be forced to leave. Which would suck.

Most of you that are supporting this idea was probably in one of the military noob corps and left within 3 days.

When I decide to leave, the reason wont be affected by the corp I joins tax rate. It will be cause of the people in the corp I join.

Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:12:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Malikton

I am intrigued, how can something be an unfair advantage when it is available to everybody?

I suspect what you mean is that it is an advantage for those people who do not elect to play the game in the same way that you do.

The key word there is "elect" - it is (as the rules currently are) a choice. Until or unless CCP change those rules, expect people to choose to play the game the way they want to.





Never were truer words spoken.

Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:18:00 - [190]
 

Ahem.

Hey.

All you turds.

You don't live in NPC corps, you don't know how we think. Want to tax us 15%? 15% of your ISK disappears into the void of space too. All a tax would do is create a bunch of 1 man corps that dissolve and reform under new names. It would discourage socialization amongst NPC corp members who no longer have stability.

Stop trying to get your rocks off on the 5% or less of us who like where we live, and play with the other 95% of each other.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:21:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Nite Angelus
Edited by: Nite Angelus on 05/01/2007 17:15:13
Hide from what exactly?


Hide from being war decced, haven't you been reading what they are saying? ugh There is no reason other than the ability to shoot as someone anywhere.

Other than that the "symptoms" everyone wishes to cure won't be altered in any way and as stated multiple times by opposing posters it would effect only mission runners as they are the only ones that participate in activities that would be forced to pay those taxes.

As for alliances and such using NPC corps to move their stuff, as has been also mentioned many times that is a petitionable offense. In game ways to deal with that already, use them.

For macro-miners (technically if you are near your keyboard you AREN'T a macroer) it would have no effect on them as they would either shift their stuff to a single-person PC corp that never leaves the station or bounce corps every 48 hours to avoid war decs.

As for forcing people over XX age to be in a PC corp, all that would do is flood CCP's databases with corps that live for 2 weeks and are then discarded to start another one. You won't get additional targets as they would just constantly slip away from you to somewhere else. There would literally be 10s of thousands of 1-2 person corps that have no function other than be 48 hour umbrellas for people that don't want to PvP all the time to slip in and out of. Every NPCer in the game will have at least 2 corps, talk to each other and shift their other characters between corps as they need to.

Not exactly worth the effort to enforce someone's style of play on someone else. And yes, its a particular style, had the ability to shoot someone at any time, any place been wanted by CCP then there would be no security ratings and the entire server cluster would be an arena.

Why not let those of us that want to play peaceful citizens do so? You have plenty of other targets to shoot at and want to shoot at you. I have enough stress IRL, I don't need or want to deal with children in game that insist that they should be able to gank me anywhere they want.

Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Timetravel Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:34:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Curzon Dax
15% tax applies to all corps. Including NPC corps. That ISK is goes into the system for whatever RP reason you like. Any corporate funds you would like generated above that are additional tax. If you want a corporate revenue of 10% tax rate, your corp tax is thus 25%.

Adding a 15% tax rate to NPC corps doesn't balance anything, because the ISK that player corps are getting taxed doesn't get "sunk." It stays with the corporation. So in the interest of fairness, if you want 15% of my ISK earning through ratting to disappear into the great RP void, so should 15% of yours. Thus, all player corporations should have a minimum of 30% tax rate.


I feel like i have lost intelligence reading it...

some corps operate at 100% tax. does that mean they are here by are at 115% tax?

What you said is so stupid it makes dumb look intelligent!

Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Timetravel Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:37:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Nite Angelus
Edited by: Nite Angelus on 05/01/2007 17:15:13
Hide from what exactly?


As for forcing people over XX age to be in a PC corp, all that would do is flood CCP's databases with corps that live for 2 weeks and are then discarded to start another one. You won't get additional targets as they would just constantly slip away from you to somewhere else. There would literally be 10s of thousands of 1-2 person corps that have no function other than be 48 hour umbrellas for people that don't want to PvP all the time to slip in and out of. Every NPCer in the game will have at least 2 corps, talk to each other and shift their other characters between corps as they need to.


thats actually an exploit. so doing it would get one BANNED!

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:41:00 - [194]
 

Instead of raiseing taxes, why not make it so you dont have to be in a corp? Thats right if you leave or get fired from you corp, you just dont belong to one anyone.

Now to make this more intresting, You have to rent your hangers space, Rent will depend on the ammount of space your takeing up.

Now if your a member of the a player corp then the monthly fees your corp pays takes care of that.



Xavier Raines
Posted - 2007.01.05 19:57:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Ajaku
NPC corps should not allow the use of mining barges, exhumers, freighters, or capital ships. They should also have 10% tax at least.

If you want nice things, you get out of the NPC corp.




I was actually open to the original idea until this moron opened his mouth.

James Snowscoran
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:21:00 - [196]
 

15% tax for non-newbie npc corps would be nice.

Move people from the newbcorps after 3 months and then levy the tax on them.

Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:23:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Xavier Raines
Originally by: Ajaku
NPC corps should not allow the use of mining barges, exhumers, freighters, or capital ships. They should also have 10% tax at least.

If you want nice things, you get out of the NPC corp.




I was actually open to the original idea until this moron opened his mouth.


Ad hominem much?

I don't think NPC corp members should be able to use ORE class ships at all.

If I am mining in a system, and a bunch of people move into that system in barges and start stripping the fields, I SHOULD have some sort of recourse. I should be able to war declare them. If they are in a n00b corp I have two options. I can steal their ore (do that often by the way) or screw my security status by loading up a geddon with smart bombs and killing them that way.

I don't agree with them not being able to have cap ships though.

There should be a time limit on how long a person can be in the initial n00b corps. After that they should be forced into a "one person corp". I would be interested to know if such a large increase would result in performance issues or not. Or, you know what would be fun? If after so long, all people in n00b corps would enter one NPC corp that CAN have war declared on them. Shooting gallery FTW!

The only "safe" place in Eve should be in a station.


Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:26:00 - [198]
 

"when was the last time you saw a freighter get ganked in empire? you know you need several several batteships to try doing that? And by several i mean a ridiculowsly high number."


Yes I know it is, but on the otherside people have been using insured BS to kill indy's and make billions at times and the response has always been empire isnt 100% safe. So again if you want to kill the frieghter YOU CAN, it might be painful but it was also painful for that guy who lost his entire carrer worth when his indy got ganked and he lost 2 billion in bpo's.... You simply lack the conviction that is your problem not anyone elses.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:27:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Alejandro Zapata

I don't think NPC corp members should be able to use ORE class ships at all.

If I am mining in a system, and a bunch of people move into that system in barges and start stripping the fields, I SHOULD have some sort of recourse. I should be able to war declare them. If they are in a n00b corp I have two options. I can steal their ore (do that often by the way) or screw my security status by loading up a geddon with smart bombs and killing them that way.




You have options now...

If you are in LowSec, you and your friends shoot them.

If you are in 0.0, you and your friends shoot them.

But guess what? If you are in HighSec, YOU DO NOT OWN THE ROCKS. You have NO right to force them away from certain asteroids or belts as those are owned, and patrolled, by the governments. Meaning if someone is mining in "your" belt, it isn't your belt....

Why would you have the right to wardec them for mining the government's asteroids?

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:27:00 - [200]
 

I would also add to this that until you can gaurentee every player acceptance into player corps there MUST be NPC corps for them.

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:33:00 - [201]
 

It's simply a bad solution. It doesn't make anyone happy, it simply includes more players in the frustrations.

I'm not actually against this tax idea per se, it's actually somewhat elegant in a way as far as the whole game is concerned. It does give a gentle nudge to players to move out to player corps.

But no one has really cited people not moving to player corps as one of the really pressing problems to solve.

What chaps my aft about this entire thread is that people keep bandying about these "issues" like god mode freighters, and CONCORD protected logistics alts, and people hiding from wardecs as if that lends more weight to this proposal.

It doesn't.

Actually quite the opposite. Because as far as those issues go, this solution sucks!

Tarkan Kador
Amarr
PanTarkan Kador Holdings
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:41:00 - [202]
 

The reason I am against things like this is because it gives CEOs, directors, and personel managers too much power to mess up someone's game.

More or less, it gives player corporations the right to determine what I can or cannot fly from my own private hangar, with my own private money, when we make things like barges and industrials subject to being flown only by those of player corporation members.

It also gives player corp officials the power to subject anyone they kick out to a CCP enforced wage garnishment, for any reason they so choose.

It also gives absolutely no incentive for player corporations to play better, and make it so you want to join a corporation for the right reasons. Its to avoid a draconian nerf.

It also subjects everyone to unecessary skill requirements, and unecessary expenses, when creating stopgap corps to avoid the penalty.

Many who want this nerf argue that people who are in NPC corps are in them for all the wrong motives. The truth is though, we have no idea why the NPC corps are so popular.

Perhaps its because they are unwilling or unable to stick a headset in their ear, and download third party voice apps. Perhaps its because no corp they are willing to play for is willing to take them. Perhaps its because they really want to play in the Academy, for roleplaying reasons.

Perhaps its because the NPC corps never try to force a playstyle on you to be a part of them, and is a place of genuine friendship, rather than fairweather friends of convenience.

I heard once that you were once able to join all the NPC factions. Man I would have loved to play and roleplay in the Imperial Navy, and not for reasons of avoiding combat.


Xavier Raines
Posted - 2007.01.05 20:43:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Xavier Raines on 05/01/2007 20:54:47
Edited by: Xavier Raines on 05/01/2007 20:45:27
Originally by: Alejandro Zapata
Originally by: Xavier Raines
Originally by: Ajaku
NPC corps should not allow the use of mining barges, exhumers, freighters, or capital ships. They should also have 10% tax at least.

If you want nice things, you get out of the NPC corp.




I was actually open to the original idea until this moron opened his mouth.


Ad hominem much?

I don't think NPC corp members should be able to use ORE class ships at all.

If I am mining in a system, and a bunch of people move into that system in barges and start stripping the fields, I SHOULD have some sort of recourse. I should be able to war declare them. If they are in a n00b corp I have two options. I can steal their ore (do that often by the way) or screw my security status by loading up a geddon with smart bombs and killing them that way.

I don't agree with them not being able to have cap ships though.

There should be a time limit on how long a person can be in the initial n00b corps. After that they should be forced into a "one person corp". I would be interested to know if such a large increase would result in performance issues or not. Or, you know what would be fun? If after so long, all people in n00b corps would enter one NPC corp that CAN have war declared on them. Shooting gallery FTW!

The only "safe" place in Eve should be in a station.





Yes! lets take the ORE ships away from empire and NPC corps!

a) People in Empire stop mining and go into mission running.

b) Many of the Empire miners quit the game out of anger because they are paying the same 15 bucks a month as everyone else yet are told they cannot use ORE ships. /applaud

c) Lack of Empire miners means low end mineral prices goes through the roof. You think they are expensive now?

d) Idiots like you will come onto this forum crying about how much your Battleships and Battle Cruisers now cost.


This of course is false if you really believe NPC corp and Empire players are really going to slave away at Veld roids in a Cruiser and be happy about it. If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. It will not force them into Player Corps, it will force them into WoW, DAOC, and the other 4,000 MMOs out there that do not put guns to their player's heads.

Caliwyrm O'Libr
Token Ring Assembly
Posted - 2007.01.05 21:18:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Amiable Quinn
Dear CCP,

People are playing the game in a way that was not meant to be played. I want to be able to attack them when they do something I don't like and I can't. Perhaps they are scammers, or pirates or like to run off at the mouth with complete immunity. I understand that this is a game and has no relevance to RL issues or injustices. Dying in a game has no RL consequences so why should they get to hide?




There I fixed part of it for you.

Is EVE a PvP game? Yes.
Has EVE been designed with the idea of non-consensual PvP? Yes.
Is EVE designed around risk vs reward? Yes.

Most of the older players are tired of cheats, swindles and chowderheads using the letter of the game rules to defeat the purpose of the game rules. They cheat with impunity, they scam with impunity and they run their mouths with impunity. They are called STARTER CORPS for a reason.


Can I honestly ask what you are so afraid of?
-Are you afraid you might actually have consequences to your actions? Stop being a ****,scammer or smack talker in the virtual world and you shouldn't get war-decced.
-Are you afraid you won't have anyone to talk to anymore? Join one of the hundred+ public chat channels.
-Are you afraid that as soon as you join a non-NPC corp you'll be war-decced? Uh, that simply doesn't happen. These random wardecs between super vet corps and super noob corps for the sheer heck of it are so completely few and far between. Even the ones that are widely discussed usually comes down to one of the noobs overloading their tadpole ass with their alligator sized mouth. There is no profit in it, there is no risk in it. The few times it is done is usually to teach the noobs a lesson.

Think of it this way: If wardec money is a bribe to pay Concord to look the other way, then the 15% NPC tax is a counter bribe to Concord for protection against wardecs. Besides, the NPC corps have to pay for all those noob ships somehow :P

Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
Posted - 2007.01.05 21:58:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Alejandro Zapata

I don't think NPC corp members should be able to use ORE class ships at all.

If I am mining in a system, and a bunch of people move into that system in barges and start stripping the fields, I SHOULD have some sort of recourse. I should be able to war declare them. If they are in a n00b corp I have two options. I can steal their ore (do that often by the way) or screw my security status by loading up a geddon with smart bombs and killing them that way.




But guess what? If you are in HighSec, YOU DO NOT OWN THE ROCKS. You have NO right to force them away from certain asteroids or belts as those are owned, and patrolled, by the governments. Meaning if someone is mining in "your" belt, it isn't your belt....

Why would you have the right to wardec them for mining the government's asteroids?


Your reasoning is WAY off. If the rocks aren't mine to uhh...mine, then why am I allowed to? Can you answer that? The Gallente Navy doesn't stop me from mining a belt, neither does the Amarr. If you move in on my operations, and threaten my income, I have every right, granted to me by the Gods of CCP to war declare your bootay. People in NPC corps unfairly remove themselves from this INTENDED system.

If another corp is mining the same system, and I particulary like that system, I can declare war on them. I have every right to declare war on them because of their threat to my income. Just like I have the right to war declare someone who might be undercutting me on the market or who might be competing with me in some other fashion.

If CCP didn't want war declarations in High Security, then they would implemented THAT system, rather than the one currently in place.

Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
Posted - 2007.01.05 22:10:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Xavier Raines
Edited by: Xavier Raines on 05/01/2007 20:54:47
Edited by: Xavier Raines on 05/01/2007 20:45:27
Originally by: Alejandro Zapata
Originally by: Xavier Raines
Originally by: Ajaku
NPC corps should not allow the use of mining barges, exhumers, freighters, or capital ships. They should also have 10% tax at least.

If you want nice things, you get out of the NPC corp.




I was actually open to the original idea until this moron opened his mouth.


Ad hominem much?

I don't think NPC corp members should be able to use ORE class ships at all.

If I am mining in a system, and a bunch of people move into that system in barges and start stripping the fields, I SHOULD have some sort of recourse. I should be able to war declare them. If they are in a n00b corp I have two options. I can steal their ore (do that often by the way) or screw my security status by loading up a geddon with smart bombs and killing them that way.

I don't agree with them not being able to have cap ships though.

There should be a time limit on how long a person can be in the initial n00b corps. After that they should be forced into a "one person corp". I would be interested to know if such a large increase would result in performance issues or not. Or, you know what would be fun? If after so long, all people in n00b corps would enter one NPC corp that CAN have war declared on them. Shooting gallery FTW!

The only "safe" place in Eve should be in a station.





Yes! lets take the ORE ships away from empire and NPC corps!

a) People in Empire stop mining and go into mission running.

b) Many of the Empire miners quit the game out of anger because they are paying the same 15 bucks a month as everyone else yet are told they cannot use ORE ships. /applaud

c) Lack of Empire miners means low end mineral prices goes through the roof. You think they are expensive now?

d) Idiots like you will come onto this forum crying about how much your Battleships and Battle Cruisers now cost.


This of course is false if you really believe NPC corp and Empire players are really going to slave away at Veld roids in a Cruiser and be happy about it. If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. It will not force them into Player Corps, it will force them into WoW, DAOC, and the other 4,000 MMOs out there that do not put guns to their player's heads.


READ chicken little, READ.

I never said Empire corps couldn't have ORE ships, I said NPC corps. Got that? NPC corps. Plenty of corps operate barges in high security and put minerals on the market.

The sky falling yet chicken little? You scared someone is going to take away your cookie, so you start throwing around insults while not even reading someones post correctly before you respond? hmmm?

There will be no mass exodus from Eve if CCP alters the NPC corp system. People seem to think that as soon as they join a corp,they are going to be war declared. Seriously, chicken little, the sky isn't going to fall on you.


Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
Posted - 2007.01.05 22:12:00 - [207]
 

Oh and by the way Chicken little, aka Xavier.

I build my own Battleships and Battlecruisers, which I use to fight. The only thing I don't build is Tech Level 2 ships.

Pretty good with my ships as well, look me up sometime, I will show you what its like when the sky does indeed fall.

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.05 22:37:00 - [208]
 

Ok, this "Risk vs Reward" stuff is getting wa-a-ay too twisted here.

"Risk vs Reward" means "If you want better rewards, you may be forced to take greater risks.".

It does not, I repeat, does not mean "The greater the risk you take, the better the reward you get.", nor does it mean "The only way to get better rewards is by taking (greater) risks".

Taking risks is simply a price one may have to pay for better rewards, it's not the origin of the reward itself.

This is how things are in RL (apart from gambling and stuff), and this is what "Risk vs Reward" is supposed to mean in most MMORPG.

If you feel others are getting better rewards while taking less risks it's clearly that they just "pay the price" for their rewards in some other fashion, be it time, fun missed, carefully thought-out arrangements or whatever.

And you have all the same options, btw.

P.S. Try to read "Risk vs Reward" as "Price vs Reward" and learn to see that price other really pay and the reward they really get, understating of in-game balance will follow.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2007.01.05 22:52:00 - [209]
 

NPC corp tax = 40%

For newbie corps, only after 1 month. To allow newbies to save their money, all other NPC corps such as the ones you drop into after leaving a corp, 40%.

Xavier Raines
Posted - 2007.01.05 23:16:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Xavier Raines on 05/01/2007 23:28:54
"READ chicken little, READ.

I never said Empire corps couldn't have ORE ships, I said NPC corps. Got that? NPC corps. Plenty of corps operate barges in high security and put minerals on the market.

The sky falling yet chicken little? You scared someone is going to take away your cookie, so you start throwing around insults while not even reading someones post correctly before you respond? hmmm?

There will be no mass exodus from Eve if CCP alters the NPC corp system. People seem to think that as soon as they join a corp,they are going to be war declared. Seriously, chicken little, the sky isn't going to fall on you."





You said NPC corps....uh so who do you think the majority is who plays in Empire? Empire essentially = NPC corps. Especially when it comes to mining. Do YOU understand that or do you need it explained slower and written in a coloring book?

Again, taking away the ORE ships, forcing people into 0.0 and play the way YOU want is the thought process of a gerbil.


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