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Angus McLean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.01 05:46:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Angus McLean on 01/01/2007 05:47:50
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Angus McLean
Edited by: Angus McLean on 30/12/2006 18:08:42
The idea of gang warfare isnt, "Quick everybody warp to Belt IV where this battleship is!" and then no one locks the Sac.

The idea is, the sac warps there and engages the target, then the rest warp on top of him. Its not a wasted tank if you know how to work gang fights like above.

The Target is then either forced to unlock you and lock someone else, or continue wasting his ammo on you. If he chooses to unlock the sac then he is losing precious time he needs to win the fight.

And to the poster who said it tanks worse then the maller...utter amarrian herecy Confused Oh and this is why. Maller and sac have same low slots. Sac has more PG for injector. Sac even outdamages the maller, but that still doesnt break 100 dps YARRRR!!. Sac has much higher base resistances. How could you even think the maller tanks better?


Yes it is you big dummy.

1. Look, you warp in on the BS and tackle, he engages the ship and the battle is joined. You friends warp in. Once they do, the BS starts to lock them. He doesnt have to unlock anyone, simply turns his guns off and target someone else. It will take him 5 seconds to lock[his gun cycle time] so he looses no time.

2. The Maller does in fact have 6 low slots and the Sacriledge 5

3. A prophecy is better for this role anyway[better cap, 1 extra low slot, tons more armor, more PG to fit NOS on top to keep a dual rep tri-hardener/Ean tank running. You will have nearly the same resists, better repping, stronger/more NOS, and just as much tackling gear as you need[with highs full of NOS you dont need an injector]. It can fit:

6xMed Nos+1small NOS
MWD/WEB/SCRAM
2xMARII/EX/THERM/KIN/EANM

This will put your lowest resist at 74%, give you some 7k armor running dual MAR's basically forever.[6 NOS I will run 2 MARII at max skills forever so long as your opponent has cap, and if he doesnt have cap, well then the battle is all but won anyway]

And the Prophecy is cheaper and insurable.




Ill come back to your first point later.


2: Extra low slot doesnt make up for the insane resistance increase. With that extra low you could add...a stacked EANM? A CPR? A heatsink to your already poor damage?

Not really viable, maybe a damage control, but overall tanking will still not be better.


3: 74% resistances arent better at all mate. Most sacs resists are 82% +, and yes those few points do make a difference.

Prophecy has a larger sig, slower, meaning it takes more overall damage. Mixed with its already unsuperior resistances, you still die fast.

Oh and no matter how many nos you have, you will never replace the need for an injector.What happens if your amazing proph gets jammed? Your screwed. Rolling Eyes


4: Cheaper and more insurable isnt the point. The OP clearly wants to know about the sac, if you cant afford to lose it, dont fly it. Fortunately most of us can afford to lose it, hence why we fly it on a daily basis.


T2 ships are all about performance and show. This ships performance is amazing at its job, tanking. Exactly what the OP was asking about.

EDIT: and about the armor issue with the proph. You could add a 1600mm plate to the sacs 5th low slot and have about the same armor HP, and still better resistances than the proph.

JoeT
Amarr
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2007.01.01 05:49:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: St'oto
btw maller tanks better than sac


Wrong. oh so wrong ASNC noob

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2007.01.01 05:55:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: JoeT
Originally by: St'oto
btw maller tanks better than sac


Wrong. oh so wrong ASNC noob


Ty for that, I like to be a bit less blunt, but whatever works. Smile

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.01 06:24:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Woohoo i can tank while you shoot.

Guess what, everyone knows the Sacrilege tanks, noone in his right mind calls it primary. IE, all yer damage gang mates get killed while you sit there tanking... Well, tanking nothing coz noone shoots you till yer gang is dead.

the whole 'tank while your gangmates kill' approach clearly shows youre a carebear whos never seen real PvP coz it only works in complexes.




That is the most simple pvp situation you can come up with. Everyone knows pvp isn't all about bread, butter and knife. A ton of factors go into each battle to determine who's the winner. The sac has its uses and it requires a bit more thinking outside the box.. Wink

Angus McLean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.01 06:30:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Kyguard
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Woohoo i can tank while you shoot.

Guess what, everyone knows the Sacrilege tanks, noone in his right mind calls it primary. IE, all yer damage gang mates get killed while you sit there tanking... Well, tanking nothing coz noone shoots you till yer gang is dead.

the whole 'tank while your gangmates kill' approach clearly shows youre a carebear whos never seen real PvP coz it only works in complexes.




That is the most simple pvp situation you can come up with. Everyone knows pvp isn't all about bread, butter and knife. A ton of factors go into each battle to determine who's the winner. The sac has its uses and it requires a bit more thinking outside the box.. Wink


QFT,

lol most people dont even have time to think about what they are shooting.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.01.01 06:50:00 - [36]
 

The prime advantage of the sac is its capacitor. It can easily be tweaked to run T2 heavy pulses with conflagration and an MWD sustained.

With a rediculous sum of isk (kinda the point of HACs) you can reach +2800m/s and that's not even counting rigs.

T1 heavy nos will kill it of course, but you can still run away (maybe). You'll probably die to most any other HACs, and you still won't have any particular aptitude at accomplishing anything more traditional platforms could do.

The Sac can do stuff though. Wait for the smartbomb buff I guess.

Scordite
Posted - 2007.01.01 13:22:00 - [37]
 

Problem with sac is that it shines when getting shot, which it won't be until it doesn't matter anymore (all other friendly ships dead).

So, sac fits nos, mwd, injector, tackling gear and heavy tank. One gangmate fits a couple damps (preferably with ship bonuses). All dps ships fit for a bit of range. Now sac is the only ship close enough to get shot at, thus it shines while it matters.

And looks great while doing so, even. That's what's really important of course.

JoeT
Amarr
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2007.01.01 14:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lygos
The prime advantage of the sac is its capacitor. It can easily be tweaked to run T2 heavy pulses with conflagration and an MWD sustained.

With a rediculous sum of isk (kinda the point of HACs) you can reach +2800m/s and that's not even counting rigs.

T1 heavy nos will kill it of course, but you can still run away (maybe). You'll probably die to most any other HACs, and you still won't have any particular aptitude at accomplishing anything more traditional platforms could do.

The Sac can do stuff though. Wait for the smartbomb buff I guess.



Decent setup and you'll have no problem with one heavy nos on you, but a Neut or a couple heavy nos, and you'll start feel it. Stay away from the Domi :D

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.01.01 14:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Angus McLean


2: Extra low slot doesnt make up for the insane resistance increase. With that extra low you could add...a stacked EANM? A CPR? A heatsink to your already poor damage?

Not really viable, maybe a damage control, but overall tanking will still not be better.


3: 74% resistances arent better at all mate. Most sacs resists are 82% +, and yes those few points do make a difference.

Prophecy has a larger sig, slower, meaning it takes more overall damage. Mixed with its already unsuperior resistances, you still die fast.

Oh and no matter how many nos you have, you will never replace the need for an injector.What happens if your amazing proph gets jammed? Your screwed. Rolling Eyes


4: Cheaper and more insurable isnt the point. The OP clearly wants to know about the sac, if you cant afford to lose it, dont fly it. Fortunately most of us can afford to lose it, hence why we fly it on a daily basis.


T2 ships are all about performance and show. This ships performance is amazing at its job, tanking. Exactly what the OP was asking about.

EDIT: and about the armor issue with the proph. You could add a 1600mm plate to the sacs 5th low slot and have about the same armor HP, and still better resistances than the proph.


2. Yea, I fail to see where this was in dispute? It was just stating that yes, it does in fact, have that extra low.

3. Yea, but it doesnt need to be. And its plenty for 2 MARs.

4 Cheaper and more insuarable IS the point. This entire game is resource and risk management. The fact that flying it carries extra risks above those found in a typical ship, and one neary as good at the job is the sole reason why the deimos is considered ****, and this carries here as well.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.01 16:02:00 - [40]
 




4 Cheaper and more insuarable IS the point. This entire game is resource and risk management. The fact that flying it carries extra risks above those found in a typical ship, and one neary as good at the job is the sole reason why the deimos is considered ****, and this carries here as well.


since when is deimos considered **** Laughing this game stoped being about resource and risk managment along time ago for alot of us

Angus McLean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.01 16:36:00 - [41]
 

If this game was about resource management, I wouldnt be flying kamikaze HAC gangs with gangmates in enemy territory for fun.

Its only about resources until you hit the golden age where you dont know what to do with your money. Then you start buying expensive ships like factions ships.

Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2007.01.01 17:36:00 - [42]
 

4x heavy pulse II
2x named light missile launchers

1x named warp disruptor
3x cap rechargers II

2x med faction reppers
1x Corpum EANM
1x Energized thermic membrane II
1x RCU II

Tanks forever with running guns and multi crystals.

Moonbeam Stalker
Posted - 2007.01.01 18:28:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: St'oto
btw maller tanks better than sac


me wonders how you lost your space so fast.. oh wait ^^

Angus McLean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.01 18:54:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Moonbeam Stalker
Originally by: St'oto
btw maller tanks better than sac


me wonders how you lost your space so fast.. oh wait ^^


Must have had a fleet of mallers vs BoB's Sac fleet.

Almarez
Setenta Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.01.08 20:50:00 - [45]
 

I appreciate the many replies, but what it comes down to is that this ship can't survive on its own in PVP...right?

Bellator Militaris
Caldari
Freelancers Coalition
Joined Brotherhood
Posted - 2007.07.01 08:41:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Hellspawn01
4x heavy pulse II
2x named light missile launchers

1x named warp disruptor
3x cap rechargers II

2x med faction reppers
1x Corpum EANM
1x Energized thermic membrane II
1x RCU II

Tanks forever with running guns and multi crystals.

I still believe that it is the pilot and the ship that make it come together. Excellent post. SPQR

Bentula
Posted - 2007.07.01 14:37:00 - [47]
 

The sac is great for two things, tanking and tackling. Pretty obvious where those two come together aint it? For example it could be used as a tackler for gate camping in lowsec, holding targets down for the BS 150km away from the gate.

Grats you just put your enemy into a situation where he has to kill the sac to be able to get away.

Same idea in 0.0, sac on gate one or two eagle far off. Sure a absolution or more likely a damnation could do similar, but its alot bigger, slower(both in warp and out of warp) and cant lock as fast.

Even in a vanilla pvp gang you still have a tackler the hostiles cant kill without committing quiete some resources to it to kill "just" a tackler. Best case primary targets never get out, worst case hostiles waste time killing you instead a frail hard hitter.

Wizard
Servant's of order
Posted - 2007.07.01 15:10:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Fubear
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Guess what, everyone knows the Sacrilege tanks, noone in his right mind calls it primary. IE, all yer damage gang mates get killed while you sit there tanking... Well, tanking nothing coz noone shoots you till yer gang is dead.


So how would a pure DPS Sac stack up then? Assuming you are not going to get called primary until the fight it already lost, why bother to fit a tank at all?

4 Heavy Pulse/Beam, 2xHAM, 3xWarrior
2x Sensor Booster II, 2x TRacking Computer
2x HS, 2x BCU, 1x MAR (or SAR if MAR wont fit)

Not sure how well that setup would work.


It wouldnt work too bad, but you might aswell use a Zealot then. More damage, and a better tank (no trouble atall fitting a plate)


Im just chuckling to myself cos i can imagine you getting frsutrated elve at the comments your replying toLaughing, i aggree with you btw.


I did see a sac that was nano fitted the other day, it was very gd at running.Confused

Wizard
Servant's of order
Posted - 2007.07.01 15:13:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: bellator militaris
Originally by: Hellspawn01
4x heavy pulse II
2x named light missile launchers

1x named warp disruptor
3x cap rechargers II

2x med faction reppers
1x Corpum EANM
1x Energized thermic membrane II
1x RCU II

Tanks forever with running guns and multi crystals.

I still believe that it is the pilot and the ship that make it come together. Excellent post. SPQR



A duel rep tank on any ship in EVEs current carnation is just a load of twaddle tbh, as sn as 1 or maybe 2 medium nos are put on that sac then its toast. Most ships you encounter nowadays ahe a nos on.

What with the excellent game balance in place also you can buy a tk1 battlecruiser and tank better whilst doing better damage than any hac if setup reasonably competent.


Xtro 2
Caldari
El Bastardos
EVESpace
Posted - 2007.07.01 15:25:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Angus McLean
Please ignore anyone posting saying the Sac is ******ed/useless/crap/stupid/ghey/cursed..ect.
They just fail at eve and dont seem to grasp what it is supposed to do.

The sac is not a ship that does damage. It tanks. You get in a gang, tank damage while your partners worry about killing stuff.

Fit for tank and get popcorn to watch targets pop from your gang mates. Ganking is not your role. Amarr ships are not good solo ships. MOST everyone knows this by now.


its supposed to NOT get beaten down by command ships which fill the HAC role better than HAC's do.

If you can pilot command ships you dont need so called HAC's their vastly inferior.

Kyozoku
Posted - 2007.07.01 16:45:00 - [51]
 

kyo is still waiting for khanid mk.2

Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.01 20:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Wizard
Originally by: bellator militaris
Originally by: Hellspawn01
4x heavy pulse II
2x named light missile launchers

1x named warp disruptor
3x cap rechargers II

2x med faction reppers
1x Corpum EANM
1x Energized thermic membrane II
1x RCU II

Tanks forever with running guns and multi crystals.

I still believe that it is the pilot and the ship that make it come together. Excellent post. SPQR



A duel rep tank on any ship in EVEs current carnation is just a load of twaddle tbh, as sn as 1 or maybe 2 medium nos are put on that sac then its toast. Most ships you encounter nowadays ahe a nos on.

What with the excellent game balance in place also you can buy a tk1 battlecruiser and tank better whilst doing better damage than any hac if setup reasonably competent.

If you do more dmg or tank better with a T1 ship than with your HAC, then you are doing something very wrong. With my setup, I tank a 6-8 NPC BSs or an apoc and zealot permanently or sentries and a raven. Do that with a T1 cruiser.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2007.07.01 20:24:00 - [53]
 

Look, ive made this challenge before and ill make it again.

Give me one example of something that a Sacrilege is good at, and ill give you an example of another ship that can do it better.

Because you bet your ass there's one out there, for every scenario you come up with.

Sey'ada
Evoke.
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.07.01 21:10:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Sey''ada on 01/07/2007 21:09:30
I had a sacrilege once. It has seen a lot of fights, and never anyone even tried to shoot at it. There were always other ships around it which made a more worth target.

One day i warped it accidently to a pos and it finally got destroyed, and somehow i was happy to get rid of itEmbarassed

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.07.02 00:49:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Look, ive made this challenge before and ill make it again.

Give me one example of something that a Sacrilege is good at, and ill give you an example of another ship that can do it better.

Because you bet your ass there's one out there, for every scenario you come up with.


i've hear its about the best hac for npcing drones, outside of maybe the cerb or ishtar.

zealot would be better but its puny cargo hold makes it pretty useless.

Corwain
Posted - 2007.07.02 01:17:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Look, ive made this challenge before and ill make it again.

Give me one example of something that a Sacrilege is good at, and ill give you an example of another ship that can do it better.

Because you bet your ass there's one out there, for every scenario you come up with.


Your challenge is rather unfair as the Sac is just a HAC. Take any HAC and you can do this scenario on everything save maybe a Vaga (although most intys play the Vaga role almost as well.

Deimos? Megathron, Brutix, Myrmidon, Astarte
Ishtar? Dominix, Myrmidon, Curse, Pilgrim, Eos

Muninn? Hurricane, Sleipnir, Tempest
Vaga? Intys can come close, Sleipnir, Curse

Cerb? Drake, Raven
Eagle? Ferox, Rokh

How about say a role the Sac does better than any other HAC or T2 cruiser?

Aro Tolan
Posted - 2007.07.02 04:01:00 - [57]
 

Sacrilege is an excellent heavy tackler, especially in low-sec.

And to the fool who made the challenge that he/she can "name a ship that can do it better" - you can do that with any category. There is no one ship that is 100% gauranteed to do something the best, 100% of the time.

Sacrilege = pirate ship.

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2007.07.02 04:19:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Aro Tolan
Sacrilege is an excellent heavy tackler, especially in low-sec.

And to the fool who made the challenge that he/she can "name a ship that can do it better" - you can do that with any category. There is no one ship that is 100% gauranteed to do something the best, 100% of the time.

Sacrilege = pirate ship.



Misleading ideology.

Pirate Ship = A ship capable of Soloing an enemy/target.

Sacrilege = A ship requiring a massive gang to keep it alive.

Dread Phantom
Caldari
End Game.
Posted - 2007.07.02 06:28:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: korrey
Originally by: Aro Tolan
Sacrilege is an excellent heavy tackler, especially in low-sec.

And to the fool who made the challenge that he/she can "name a ship that can do it better" - you can do that with any category. There is no one ship that is 100% gauranteed to do something the best, 100% of the time.

Sacrilege = pirate ship.



Misleading ideology.

Pirate Ship = A ship capable of Soloing an enemy/target.

Sacrilege = A ship requiring a massive gang to keep it alive.


How do you fit yours, with civilian mods?? ugh

Dahak2150
Arm of Orion
Posted - 2007.07.02 06:41:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Look, ive made this challenge before and ill make it again.

Give me one example of something that a Sacrilege is good at, and ill give you an example of another ship that can do it better.

Because you bet your ass there's one out there, for every scenario you come up with.


Winning this challenge.


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