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Amin
Posted - 2003.11.27 00:45:00 - [1]
 

We've heard that T2 BP will come from research agents but what about the skills? Ideally they should be just put on the market but i remember and early dev chat where they said that advanced skills would not be on the market and maybe given out though rat drops. Confused

Can a Dev or anyone shed some light on this, please?

Tiwaz
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
Posted - 2003.11.27 11:12:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tiwaz on 27/11/2003 11:13:12
http://www.eve-i.com/fullnews.php?id=891

Fritz Ionar
Minmatar
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2003.11.28 15:48:00 - [3]
 

That doesn't say anything about the distrubtion method for the new skills...

Kizz
Posted - 2003.11.28 16:40:00 - [4]
 

The acquisition of Tech 2 blueprints will be done through a new class of agents, called research agents. You tally up research points in specific fields depending on the agent level and your own research skills (these are all new skills, 17 in total). These new skills will not be on the market, but instead they are given out by agents as rewards for specific missions. The blueprints themselves will be introduced by the dev team and given out according to research point count.

Hope when the relevant bits are underlined and in bold you can see them

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2003.11.28 16:51:00 - [5]
 

If anyone gets one of the new skills and doesn't want it. Talk to me. I'll buy it off ya. Wink



Amin
Posted - 2003.11.28 16:52:00 - [6]
 

Hmmm...not sure if BP and skills should be given out by agents, but oh well Surprised

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2003.11.28 17:14:00 - [7]
 

Yeah, I REALLY don't like that. Esp, the skills part. I say that the agents should give out skills AND the skills should be made available on the market for a very high price. Maybe 5 mil each or more.


Golgrath
Minmatar
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2003.11.29 07:27:00 - [8]
 

I'm sure agent runners will put the skills to market after they've gotten theirs (and i'm sure for 5m or more)

Fritz Ionar
Minmatar
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2003.11.29 11:43:00 - [9]
 

Quote:
(these are all new skills, 17 in total). These new skills will not be on the market, but instead they are given out by agents as rewards for specific missions.

Hope when the relevant bits are underlined and in bold you can see them

My bad Embarassed

Chaz Pounder
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2003.12.01 16:58:00 - [10]
 

I dont know why the F they even have agents *!?.. supose to be a massive multiplayer game online .. not a Massive singel player online ...

ClawHammer III
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.01 17:21:00 - [11]
 

Actualy, research agents don't give out missions or skills so the skills must come from other agents...

Vel Kyri
Amarr
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2003.12.01 18:46:00 - [12]
 

I dont get this.

why is everyone complaining.

i think its a great idea.

now getting these great skills and items is a FACTION DEPENDANT thing.

factions are starting to mean something!

this is excellent!

and yes it is a multiplayer game - is, you CAN NOT BLOOMIN WELL DO EVERYTHING YOURSELF!!!!!

sheesh.

some people like doing agent missions, some hate it. so let those people who like to do agent missions get paid really well for doing the crap work by getting nice things for it (ie, isk from other players...)

i say - bravo to CCP.

(and personally, i hate missions, and research and everyything else - i like fighting and let other people give me the nice stuff to protect them... everyone happy)

Nariko Tenrai
Minmatar
Hayashikani Dynamics
Posted - 2003.12.02 08:39:00 - [13]
 

Quote:
I dont get this.

why is everyone complaining.


Researchers are complaining because:

1) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get research agents.

2) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get the skills to use said agents.

3) Agent missions are the most boring activity in the game. (Yes, worse than mining, IMO.)

4) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital stat" for research characters is no longer Intelligence, but Charisma.

5) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital skill set" for research character is no longer Science, but Social.

6) What does this process have to do with research, anyway?

Bottom line, research characters have been waiting since the game shipped for a chance to play a vital role. In the meantime, they have built their characters in line with the rules for research as they currently exist - building up their Int and Mem, building up their Science skills, and buying and improving lots of BPs.

All that work was for nothing.

Tech II is not the validation and new beginning we trusted it would be; CCP has utterly changed the rules on us. Our characters have the wrong stats, the wrong skills, and have substantially worse chances of getting Tech II than those who chose to follow quick, immediate paths to power. Our choices at this point amount to "become an agent wh**e or reroll."

It's not that "we can't do everything by ourselves." It's that we can't do the one thing we chose to do, that we've been waiting months for a chance to do.

If you can't understand why we're upset, consider how you would feel if it turned out that all the best Tech II weapons and the skills needed to use them spawned from random mined out asteroids. Makes no sense, does it?

Brukhai Khan
Minmatar
Annihilate.
Posted - 2003.12.05 03:35:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Brukhai Khan on 05/12/2003 03:40:23
if thereīs really no other way than agent missions to get tech2 BPs/skills... yeauch. i donīt like the idea of a lottery-like distribution of BPs/skills.

you might want to check out the last few pages of this thread:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=41582&page=9

De'ana
Posted - 2003.12.05 13:04:00 - [15]
 

I hope this time there is no 4 day bug where skills are dished out like water to start with to those players already with high agents and then is fixed and just as you get there it's like no you'll be spending like 50 hours straight before you get anything.

Tricky Trixy
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.12.05 14:02:00 - [16]
 

Hi,

I don't know if u have read the new DEV chat that has just been done but it says in there that u do NOT need to do loads of agent missions to get a research agent!!!!

If u have a faction rating of 1.0 or higher u can get a research agent and start doing missions for them thus earning research points and that i assume will lead to the Tech 2 BPs and the skill needed for Tech 2. So start getting those faction secs up and voila u can get ur research agent!!Laughing

ClawHammer III
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.05 14:11:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Quote:
I dont get this.

why is everyone complaining.


Researchers are complaining because:

1) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get research agents.

2) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get the skills to use said agents.

3) Agent missions are the most boring activity in the game. (Yes, worse than mining, IMO.)

4) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital stat" for research characters is no longer Intelligence, but Charisma.

5) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital skill set" for research character is no longer Science, but Social.

6) What does this process have to do with research, anyway?

Bottom line, research characters have been waiting since the game shipped for a chance to play a vital role. In the meantime, they have built their characters in line with the rules for research as they currently exist - building up their Int and Mem, building up their Science skills, and buying and improving lots of BPs.

All that work was for nothing.

Tech II is not the validation and new beginning we trusted it would be; CCP has utterly changed the rules on us. Our characters have the wrong stats, the wrong skills, and have substantially worse chances of getting Tech II than those who chose to follow quick, immediate paths to power. Our choices at this point amount to "become an agent wh**e or reroll."

It's not that "we can't do everything by ourselves." It's that we can't do the one thing we chose to do, that we've been waiting months for a chance to do.

If you can't understand why we're upset, consider how you would feel if it turned out that all the best Tech II weapons and the skills needed to use them spawned from random mined out asteroids. Makes no sense, does it?


1) There will be level 1 research agents so you donít have to do hundreds of missions if you don't want to.

2) I haven't gotten any science skills from my agents yet on Castor but I havenít done very many of them. Skill rewards may not be implemented yet.

3) I agree with you here. Agent missions need a major overhaul to be interesting but I prefer them to mining.

4) After hearing about the requirements on some of the tech 2 bp I can assure you that this isn't the case. Tech 2 items will require level 5 industry to manufacture and level 4 in the research skills that to apply to them to even copy them (as well as certain commodities and tools) and add Metallurgy 5 on top of that to even research mineral efficiency on them.

5) See above. Researchers will have plenty of Science skills to train.

6) It simulates the luck and training required to make a major discovery and if think researchers donít need some social skills to get research grants and stuff you are mistaken.

Bottom line: People are *****ing for no good reason. Why donít you log on Chaos and see the process in action, help squash the bugs, then criticize from an informed perspective instead of fanning the flames on the message boards.

How can you honestly think the Devs will bother reading and responding to flames if you won't even give thier way a try first.

RAIDAKAOZ
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.12.08 13:07:00 - [18]
 

hate to say it, but you will have to do hundreds of agent missions to even use a level 1 research agent, because regular agents are the ones that give out the skills needed to use those agents... so damned if you do, damned if you dont

Sandokan
Posted - 2003.12.09 12:31:00 - [19]
 

The blueprints themselves will be introduced by the dev team and given out according to research point count (there is some chance element involved also, so the people with the most research points accumulated will not always get the blueprints, but they'll have a better chance).

Now that realy sucks, why can't a agent give out the BP?
If devs are giving them out, i surely thinking of quiting EVE

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.12.09 14:20:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
The blueprints themselves will be introduced by the dev team and given out according to research point count (there is some chance element involved also, so the people with the most research points accumulated will not always get the blueprints, but they'll have a better chance).

Now that realy sucks, why can't a agent give out the BP?
If devs are giving them out, i surely thinking of quiting EVE


Dev's wont give them out.

What they will do is the following;

They decide that there will be 6 Tachyon Beam Laser II distributed. They enter this into the system, which will then add together all the research-points in the pool. Then, according to the research points you have, you will ahve a chance to get a Tachyon II.

This means that if someone has 50% of all the points in the pool, another one 25%, two people 10% and one person 5%, that these people have a 50%, 25%, 10% and 5% chance to get a blueprint.

I assume that you get an eve-mail much like the "important mission" eve-mail when your agent has reached a breakthrough.

So, the devs decide what gets handed out, but the agent-system decides who gets the hand-out.

Very Happy

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2003.12.11 19:26:00 - [21]
 

It was noted you need the primary science skill 5 and a secondary skill 5 to get the advanced research skill to get the bp of that skill. Though I believe you can get research points it wont matter unless you have the research skill to "use" them. This is where the chance comes in cause there are so many tech 2 research skills you need to do lots of missions to get a broad range of skills and have science 5 and the secondary skills.

Geez talk about planning what you really want to do.

The guy getting the bp wont have the time to make the item. The guy making the item wont have the time to get the supplies. The guy that is getting the supplies wont have time to use the final product. The final player will be training skills to use it and wont be doing the other things.

ClawHammer III
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.11 22:30:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
hate to say it, but you will have to do hundreds of agent missions to even use a level 1 research agent, because regular agents are the ones that give out the skills needed to use those agents... so damned if you do, damned if you dont


Implants were a good motivator to do agent missions and many people started doing them to obtain the implants but obviously not everyone wanted to do them or had to do them to get implants. It will basically be the same situation for the Tech 2 skills. If you do the missions you will be the first to benefit but eventually everything will trickle down to everyone else.

The bottom line is eventually people will start selling Tech2 skills on the market like they did with implants and sooner or later everyone can and will be involved in Tech 2.

ClawHammer III
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.11 22:37:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
It was noted you need the primary science skill 5 and a secondary skill 5 to get the advanced research skill to get the bp of that skill. Though I believe you can get research points it wont matter unless you have the research skill to "use" them. This is where the chance comes in cause there are so many tech 2 research skills you need to do lots of missions to get a broad range of skills and have science 5 and the secondary skills.

Geez talk about planning what you really want to do.

The guy getting the bp wont have the time to make the item. The guy making the item wont have the time to get the supplies. The guy that is getting the supplies wont have time to use the final product. The final player will be training skills to use it and wont be doing the other things.


Your eligibility for the different types of blueprints depends on the type of research you are doing. You won't get a BP unless you are researching at least one of the research skills that it requires.

If you want certain types of BP you can just research in the area they require and ignore the other areas.

Kaylon Syi
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.12.12 21:16:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I dont get this.

why is everyone complaining.


Researchers are complaining because:

1) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get research agents.

2) They have to perform hundreds of agent missions to get the skills to use said agents.

3) Agent missions are the most boring activity in the game. (Yes, worse than mining, IMO.)

4) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital stat" for research characters is no longer Intelligence, but Charisma.

5) As the new paradigm is agent missions, the new "vital skill set" for research character is no longer Science, but Social.

6) What does this process have to do with research, anyway?

Bottom line, research characters have been waiting since the game shipped for a chance to play a vital role. In the meantime, they have built their characters in line with the rules for research as they currently exist - building up their Int and Mem, building up their Science skills, and buying and improving lots of BPs.

All that work was for nothing.

Tech II is not the validation and new beginning we trusted it would be; CCP has utterly changed the rules on us. Our characters have the wrong stats, the wrong skills, and have substantially worse chances of getting Tech II than those who chose to follow quick, immediate paths to power. Our choices at this point amount to "become an agent wh**e or reroll."

It's not that "we can't do everything by ourselves." It's that we can't do the one thing we chose to do, that we've been waiting months for a chance to do.

If you can't understand why we're upset, consider how you would feel if it turned out that all the best Tech II weapons and the skills needed to use them spawned from random mined out asteroids. Makes no sense, does it?


1) There will be level 1 research agents so you donít have to do hundreds of missions if you don't want to.

2) I haven't gotten any science skills from my agents yet on Castor but I havenít done very many of them. Skill rewards may not be implemented yet.

3) I agree with you here. Agent missions need a major overhaul to be interesting but I prefer them to mining.

4) After hearing about the requirements on some of the tech 2 bp I can assure you that this isn't the case. Tech 2 items will require level 5 industry to manufacture and level 4 in the research skills that to apply to them to even copy them (as well as certain commodities and tools) and add Metallurgy 5 on top of that to even research mineral efficiency on them.

5) See above. Researchers will have plenty of Science skills to train.

6) It simulates the luck and training required to make a major discovery and if think researchers donít need some social skills to get research grants and stuff you are mistaken.

Bottom line: People are *****ing for no good reason. Why donít you log on Chaos and see the process in action, help squash the bugs, then criticize from an informed perspective instead of fanning the flames on the message boards.

How can you honestly think the Devs will bother reading and responding to flames if you won't even give thier way a try first.


Its about time someone made some dang sense. I have my 2nd acount with 3.2mil skill points and a good amount of the current skillset needed to lvl 5. Charisma Implants are cheap... I will pick one up tonight and work on social while to get that up.

I have no problem making my character more valuable to the Tech 2 market. I too hate missions but I finished my tutorial agent and got a Roden shipyards lvl 1 and have been working that up. Hardly any work to be on the right direction for a good faction research char.

People need to ease up and bite the bullet. If they didn't train their character properly to take advantage... find a freiend or corp m8 that did and stop complaining.

Kudos ClawHammer III for the post...

Nariko Tenrai
Minmatar
Hayashikani Dynamics
Posted - 2003.12.15 00:36:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Nariko Tenrai on 15/12/2003 00:37:12
Quote:
1) There will be level 1 research agents so you donít have to do hundreds of missions if you don't want to.


The fact that you could get level 1 research agents for no greater requirement than having a Sec better than -1.0 was only announced after i made this post. I partially retract it. The point stands, however, that getting the "better" agents still requires doing hundreds of boring missions.

Quote:
2) I haven't gotten any science skills from my agents yet on Castor but I havenít done very many of them. Skill rewards may not be implemented yet.


I'm not sure what your point is here. Is it that we have no proof how many missions are required to get a skill? If so, I take your point. My belief is that they will be equivalent to implants, as they are equivalently valuable. I don't think we could debate this until we have a reasonable sample size to judge from.

Quote:
4) After hearing about the requirements on some of the tech 2 bp I can assure you that this isn't the case. Tech 2 items will require level 5 industry to manufacture and level 4 in the research skills that to apply to them to even copy them (as well as certain commodities and tools) and add Metallurgy 5 on top of that to even research mineral efficiency on them.


Points I hadn't heard. I hope you'll forgive me for being less than perfectly informed. This discussion has sprawled across at least four boards, and I can't keep up with everything.

This doesn't change the fact that to get Tech II BPs, you have to do a lot of agent missions - missions to get the skills, missions to get better research agents, missions to get bonnuses to you research point production. Yes, there are still uses for those skills, but you need Charisma-based skills to get through all the missions required to have a reasonable chance of getting Tech II BPs in the first place.

Quote:
5) See above. Researchers will have plenty of Science skills to train.


See my comments above as well. Before your Science skills are useful, your Social skills are required. This does not make sense to me.

Quote:
6) It simulates the luck and training required to make a major discovery and if think researchers donít need some social skills to get research grants and stuff you are mistaken.


I wasn't aware that EVE's research game was intended to reflect the bureaucracy of academia. I thought it was supposed to reflect... you know... research. Getting research grants isn't fun. Making a breakthrough discovery is. If that's truly what this system is intended to reflect, then I would argue that someone needs to go back and examine what makes research appealing and entertaining.

If this is the case, it seems akin to Raph Koster being mystified as to why SWG players want to Pistoleers and Jedi rather than crafters and entertainers.

Quote:
How can you honestly think the Devs will bother reading and responding to flames if you won't even give thier way a try first.


First of all, I'm not flaming. I'm criticizing based on the information publically available. Implying I'm an uninformed whiner is flaming - and that's you doing it, not me. If you want to correct me or disagree with me, I'm open to it. Most of your message did so. That you chose to close an otherwise rational and informative message with a troll is disppointing. If my criticsm bothers you, then don't read it, and don't react to it.

Second of all, I don't expect the devs to respond. They're busy people, I'm just one voice, and there aren't many dedicated research players anyway. Frankly, our dollars don't match up to the other player's dollars.

Third of all, I don't need to "give their way a try first" when some of the implications of it are patently obvious, any more than I have to give George W. Bush's budget policies a chance when it is obvious that they will increase the deficit.

The fact is that, as a reasearch character, I will be spending my time doing agent missions in order to get the skills to do research - because I sank all my money into BPs, and have very little cash to buy them in the trade channel. The fact is that I will be doing missions to gain access to better research agents to be competitive. The fact is that I will be doing agent missions to get research point bonuses for my research agents.

The fact is that agent missions are a boring solitary activity (level 4 and 5 missions will change this). This is what it all comes down to for me. I don't mind doing work, I dislike being forced to make the high-Social skill alts I had to, but I hate facing a future in which I am bored to tears and have to work alone all the time. This is contrary to the very concept of a massively multiplayer game.

ClawHammer III
Gallente
Posted - 2003.12.15 21:22:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: ClawHammer III on 15/12/2003 21:29:11
Quote:
Points I hadn't heard. I hope you'll forgive me for being less than perfectly informed. This discussion has sprawled across at least four boards, and I can't keep up with everything.

This doesn't change the fact that to get Tech II BPs, you have to do a lot of agent missions - missions to get the skills, missions to get better research agents, missions to get bonnuses to you research point production. Yes, there are still uses for those skills, but you need Charisma-based skills to get through all the missions required to have a reasonable chance of getting Tech II BPs in the first place.


There is only 1 Social skill compared to about 25 Science skills that will be available. I don't understand why training one rank 1 social skill is such a big deal.

Quote:
I wasn't aware that EVE's research game was intended to reflect the bureaucracy of academia. I thought it was supposed to reflect... you know... research. Getting research grants isn't fun. Making a breakthrough discovery is. If that's truly what this system is intended to reflect, then I would argue that someone needs to go back and examine what makes research appealing and entertaining.

If this is the case, it seems akin to Raph Koster being mystified as to why SWG players want to Pistoleers and Jedi rather than crafters and entertainers.


Well honestly what did you expect do be doing? Mixing virtual test tubes together in a station? I don't see how any game can simulate the effect of real life research in a very realistic or fun way. The current system seams about as good as any. Although, I think it would be interesting if they added long-term quest like research missions where you had to search for some rare old-world artifact or something to that effect.

Quote:
First of all, I'm not flaming. I'm criticizing based on the information publically available. Implying I'm an uninformed whiner is flaming - and that's you doing it, not me. If you want to correct me or disagree with me, I'm open to it. Most of your message did so. That you chose to close an otherwise rational and informative message with a troll is disppointing. If my criticsm bothers you, then don't read it, and don't react to it.


What I meant is that you should get on Chaos on see the new system in action. Its not going to be exactly the same because they radically increased the blueprint distribution rate so everyone could get a chance to get a BP but the mechanics will be the same.

Sorry if I came off as harsh but most people start criticizing things without seeing how they are implemented or getting all the facts and that annoys me but that isn't a good excuse. Again I apologize for offending you.

Quote:
The fact is that agent missions are a boring solitary activity (level 4 and 5 missions will change this). This is what it all comes down to for me. I don't mind doing work, I dislike being forced to make the high-Social skill alts I had to, but I hate facing a future in which I am bored to tears and have to work alone all the time. This is contrary to the very concept of a massively multiplayer game.


As I stated before you donít need to make high social skill or charisma characters and there is only one Social skill so whatís the big deal?

I admit agent missions need some sprucing up and they are working hard to make them more enjoyable. They ported over the agent code to a more flexible system that will allow for more complex missions and team missions and there will also be a volunteer content program for agents in the future.

Hafthor
Gallente
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.17 11:48:00 - [27]
 

Why are some modules only available as pirate loot? Why would anyone want to fight stupid npc's? This IS an MMORPG right? I mean ... who would want to train all these combat skills and try to get all that equipment when it will probably all be lost in one of the CTD's?

Lets face it.. I like doing agent missions and mining, others like to play the market, hunt npc's, hunt players or whatever. Whine all you want, I won't listen cause I made my char the way I wanted it... so what if it isn't maxed out?

Hafthor
Gallente
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2003.12.17 11:54:00 - [28]
 

umm.. I got so annoyed reading through this that I forgot why I was reading it Wink

Does anyone know if the research skills will only be distributed by the same corporations that have research agents or if all agents give them as rewards?

That is, will I have to up my standing to Boundless Creation to get research skills or can I keep doing missions for Quafe?

Cell Satimo
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.12.17 12:09:00 - [29]
 

IMHO The research changes are great. For players who truely want to develop a science (or Indiustry or Mining) specialisation, now have some very real and in-depth goals to focus on.

The depth of the skill tree will mean the demand in large corporations for skilled scientists will increase and dare i say it, earn some serious respect.

It encourages co-operation between players to co-operate together to complete the supply chain required to produce tech II+ items.

It also encourages those who want single-play to perform agent missions, or provide services on the market for research or refining jobs.

Deadflip2
Gallente
HeartVenom Inc.
Posted - 2003.12.17 16:07:00 - [30]
 

why should we complain, mining is ****ed, 0.0 is ****ed, bs prices times 2, i dont see a reson to whime, do you?


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