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Rose Wing
Posted - 2006.12.22 17:13:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Tachy
@Rose Wing:
You got some noble intentions there.

To bad you will only succeed in areas where the demand is much lower than your theoretical productive output.
I tried doing the same and found out that it just doesn't work. Resellers will grab cheap items that are in high demand and they will make as much profit from your skills and logistics as the customers will allow for. You might be able to lower the price by 10%, maybe by 15% if you're really lucky and the resellers run out of cash (Yeah, right).


But I will effort and maybe fail. But there is no way CCP can correct this really, and unless people quit buying them at rediculous prices (which will not happen soon) there is no salvation for the players that just simply want to fly these vessels but cannot afford to. My efforts may be illusions, but if everyone in Eve sees them as illusions then so be it all will remain the same struggle. My whole point is to notify these rediculous price gougers that players are getting fed up like I have, and that one day every non BPO holder will grow sick, angry, and push to crush their market. Fear it, sometimes there are other wars aside from armed warfare...And eventually I think that war will come. However Tachy, if I see you pass by in 0.0 space my Absolution's turrets will ingnore you, for you now have a respect from me and probably others for efforting when you did.

Theory (and maybe delusional ganders at that)if noone efforts to stop this: The players will get fed up and stop buying...eventually... The large alliances will have most T2 BPO's and will dominate the universe on all sides kind of like we are already seeing. No opposition will take them, for the opposition will be at an unfair advantage, outnumbered and out shipped. Skill points will not matter, piloting skill will save few based on shear ship/mod advantage to the powerhouses. Is this really the direction and personna the gamers that love Eve want to take, to just sit by and be dominated by the market. 0.0 closed down to the dominate forces, opposition difficult to amount to anything, immidient attrition to the high payer for trying knowing that attrition is the only way to truely destroy any alliance just like it could destroy the BPO holders on the market. Attrition is death in this game, my main has seen many fall to attrition.

T2 is one of the most beautiful aspects of the game..should be expensive, but not rediculous. The Golden Rule, a foundation in which many communities unite and understand aside from other differences that burn them down. Forgive me, but why do the pilots in Eve take this sh*t! Wanna get rich, show balls and take space, make it rich, but damn screwing all pilots from having the ability to fly the ships they truely adore. It's painful. I invision that 25 - 35 mill skill point pilot asking himself why he plays this game, all these skills and cant afford to show his own potental..all because a different form of attrition is automatically incorporated into the market eating away at pilots. The market being the first blow to war before even a shot is fired. A failure would be to sit by and let this be the fate. And I am no failure even if I fail, because damnit I tried.

Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
The SUdden Death Squad
Posted - 2006.12.22 18:12:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: manimani
Originally by: Areconus
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Well, you see, the reason prices are so high is becSQUAUK SQUAUK SQUAUK SQUAUK SQUAUK SQUAUK SQUAUKdon't care cry more
And here we have a fine example of the typical goon response.
NOT ALL OF US ARE LIKE HIM, STOP GENERALISINGEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling EyesEvil or Very MadRolling Eyes

I agree. Not all of you have Vaga BPO.

Wesley Harding
Posted - 2006.12.22 20:13:00 - [123]
 

What I'd like to know is if each BPO is being used to it's fullest. Making lots of something with reduced prices vs. making fewer at higher prices, the latter is always preferable.

Rylet VanDorn
Silver Bullet Tax Evasion
Posted - 2006.12.22 20:41:00 - [124]
 

The game itself is a waste of time, unless you are in one of the corps/alliances that the devs are favoring because they are apart of it.

Whatever they don't use/like, gets nerfed. Their friends are granted T2 bpos, or the information on obtaining bpos, because this game suffers from a lack of impartiality on the part of those in power.

Tranquility is no better than an emulated server. It just has a mask of professionalism because they collect fees.

They won't be collecting mine much longer.

Qberticus
Posted - 2006.12.22 21:09:00 - [125]
 

The problem I feel, and it seems many others feel, with the T2 market is that it goes against the way the rest of EVE is played. In all aspects of EVE except the T2 market the player is required to work for their reward. If you want to have a lot of LP and harvest implants you have to spend the time to run all those missions, get the required skills, etc. If you want to be a good PVP pilot you spend the time fighting, getting your skills, testing setups, etc. If you want to be a good miner you spend time doing that. The more time you spend working at it, the harder you work at it, generally the better off you are. This all relates to how it works in the real world and is one of the reasons why I think EVE attracts the kind of players it does.

The T2 market isn’t like any of those other aspects. As pointed out earlier in the thread, you train a few skills and then start churning out RP. Then there is the lottery, pure chance, no risk vs. reward like the rest of the game, no hard work required. It’s all luck. If there’s one thing about EVE is that it tries to minimize the need for luck in most of the things that you can do.

So, why then does this one aspect of the game, one that has a huge influence on so many players of the game, does not depend on the same principals as the rest of the game?

I don’t know, and from reading this thread, and other similar to it, many other people don’t know either. And that is the reason why people will continue to complain, it’s not be cause of prices, or availability, or whining, or any other reason people like to throw out there in support for or against the current situation. It’s because people see how that this aspect of the game is so far removed from the rest of it and it bothers them. They feel it, they experience it, they may not fully understand it but it is there.

That is why something Should Be Done(tm).

Magnus Card
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.22 21:15:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: DiuxDium
T2 should be expensive. I'd like to see T2 items costing much MUCH more to produce though. As the current prices don't reflect a nessecary profit margin as in T1 items, but a 'greed' margin. Increases the price to produce, and T2 bpo owners won't cause so much inflation, as alot of the isk in T2 will go down the drain.

There's a finite amount of money people are willing to pay for things, the current prices show the top end people are willing.



This is the same thing as Governments in the real world trying to Tax corporations. Corporations do not in anyway pay Taxes, they pass every single Tax on their customers. So your idea of raising the production cost of T2 items will only cause the T2 prices to go up accordingly. So please stop offering suggestions that would only mess things up worse than they are.

Apollo Balthar
Minmatar
New Eden Outcasts
Malicious Intent Gentleman's Club
Posted - 2006.12.22 23:57:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Xantina
Originally by: DoctorColossal Pervius
IT IS A CAPITALIST MARKET - LIKE THE REAL WORLD!

GET OVER IT AND JOIN IN THE FUN.

THIS IS A USELESS THREAD.

Whining will not bring down prices alone... and is very annoying.Shocked


a) Let's see. Someone sees the light

*stuff*

b) So now, for a price of 50 millions, you would sell 3 Cloaks to new customers, plus the one fool that would have paid 80 millions.

*stuff*

c) Unfortunately, as I said, the recent "capitalists" have no firsthand knowledge of economics - hence the absurd prices they are trying to get.




a) whoever saw the light, it sure as hell wasn't you.
b) you happily assume the current manufacturers can actually produce more, which I highly doubt. More probable is they all produce full throtle. You think if they had stock they wouldn't sell?
c) see a)


Strong Badd
Trogdor the Burninator Corporation
Posted - 2006.12.23 00:29:00 - [128]
 

I'd like to see how the BPO owners would act if they got their ISK printing machines given to someone else and somehow lost their money and couldn't afford T2.

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2006.12.23 03:43:00 - [129]
 

CCP don't ever do anything to affect the market, that's not your job it's the players. While dealing with t2 BPO owners they are random so you want them to be given BPCs? so the price is higher from even more limited amounts? The t2 sellers will sell that the market will bare just like in the t1 market but form more people being in it more slowly undercut one another.
If you don't want to pay into T2 then guess what, there is inventing, research a t1 alot and make a copy stack of lets say 100+BPC then use invention for it, same with ships, then wow you may have your own t2 BPC and sell it at market price for a killing yourself or keep it or sell under the market price. If you sell too much under the market price, someone will buy the good but only to resell it a a higher price, there are people who make a living doing that or did you forget?

FatHed
RennTech
Posted - 2006.12.23 03:54:00 - [130]
 

It's really as simple as this, cheaper prices means more fun for everyone.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.12.23 04:19:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: FatHed
It's really as simple as this, cheaper prices means more fun for everyone.


I second that.

No way will many 'take risks' with ships that require a long time to replace.
If EVE is meant to be a PvP game (while atm it's more of a ganking game), it should be possible to take your chances against unfavorable odds without having to spend your gametime grinding for ISK.

The whole tech II system is a mess. A total failure from a gameplay point of vue.

Vishnej
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
Posted - 2006.12.23 04:49:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Vishnej on 23/12/2006 04:51:19
Originally by: Zephyrlin
I haven't seen a single person address the biggest reason that you'll always pay the same price for T2 items, no matter how many more BPOs are seeded.


Traders.

What happens if I get a bpo and I start making T2 items and I place them on the market for 10% less than all the competition? Someone else buys them up, and reposts them at the same price as the competition, and they get the profit I would have gotten.

CCP can't do anything to stop that. The same thing happens with named modules. Hell, I've done it. It's a fast and easy way to make ISK.

So basically, once the prices for an item are set, don't expect them to change too much as long as there are people running around doing this. While it's not the entire problem, it's a significant part.


More inability to understand a free market with a fixed supply.

The only price that is 'set' is the desire people have to own the good.

If suppliers cannot sell their goods at a certain price(there isn't enough demand), they will lower it, down to near the production cost. Perhaps they might think of taking the fantastically difficult step of forming an eve-wide cartel, but 99.99% don't. Any unsuccessful at that will find their competitors the only ones selling goods, and their inventory rotting on the market.

And vice versa: A profit maximizing supplier will charge the maximum he can while still selling all his supply. If he does not (he prices it below demand-established-value), then resellers will. The product will always go to the maximum bidder that will use the ship. As there is a fixed number of ships per day, the price will always tend to go to whatever the price people are willing to pay for those ships.

The prices aren't 'set' - they're somewhat nonlinearly proportional to the number of people in the game, which has been increasing. However, if 'vagabond alliance' decides that it wants all its members in a particular ship, then prices for every end-user will go up - 'set prices' be damned.

The only thing CCP can and should do about it is release enough BPOs that prices stay reasonable: which is what they're FINALLY doing, after literally years of ignoring posts like this. Which is why I want to garrote the OP.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.12.23 06:28:00 - [133]
 

the problem is the supply side of the market. if there was anyway most tech II producers could churn out more, they would, they are greedy just like the rest of us. the only thing that is going to stabilize prices is more bpo's seeded. i highly doubt that anything short of a massive BPO seeding is going to drop prices much.

Tachy
Posted - 2006.12.23 08:24:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Wesley Harding
What I'd like to know is if each BPO is being used to it's fullest. Making lots of something with reduced prices vs. making fewer at higher prices, the latter is always preferable.


Most T2 ammo doesn't really have a market these days. They're balanced into or close to oblivion now (T2 torps, most artillery ammo), while others never have been really usefull (T2 precision lights).

Many items did not sell at the fullest (ie. Siege Launcher II, Scimitar, hound, transports).
Okay, the launchers did sell as fast as I could build them - when there was a war and new missions costing a lot of ships. They stopped selling as good as people came in trying the reselling trick.

ccp dropped even more BPO of these into the lottery.

The examples above come from my own experience or from that of people I know.

Hint: Do not forget that the T2 production takes much longer than the T1 variant.
The number of factory slots you can use at a time is very limited (by skills and factory slots).
Most T2 ammo does make the same or even less profit than its T1 counterpart when you compare the factory output over a given timespan.

Tachy
Posted - 2006.12.23 08:40:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Qberticus
[...]
So, why then does this one aspect of the game, one that has a huge influence on so many players of the game, does not depend on the same principals as the rest of the game?
[...]



The amount of SP needed for a decent chance in the T2 lottery and a good reward in the T2 market is pretty high. You need the social, science and the manufacturing skills, and because you want to stand a chance later in the market, you add quite a few trade skills. You have to build up some logistic network for the components and you need the factories and a working distribution system.

All in all it is about the effort. The other competitors and pirates (and the devs) add some risk into the situation.

If I trained my combat skills and spent my time doing PvP instead ...

The only part that's a bit strange at the first look is the lottery.
But at a closer look it is just as random as finding the correct exploration site or being the first in a belt with a lucky officer spawn or a BPC drop in a belt or an agent offering you the correct implant.

Xantina
Lyonesse.
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.23 09:33:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Apollo Balthar


a) whoever saw the light, it sure as hell wasn't you.
b) you happily assume the current manufacturers can actually produce more, which I highly doubt. More probable is they all produce full throtle. You think if they had stock they wouldn't sell?
c) see a)




a) do you actually know what this "light" thingy is ? Your clever *stuff* comment on issues you can read up in economics 101 clearly indicate that your out of your depth here.
b) So you doubt and think ? How about evidence ? I've been following the sales in Jita and if those people can't satisfy the current demand I would suggest training "Industry" to 2.
c) see a) Twisted Evil

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.12.23 11:25:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Nemain on 23/12/2006 11:25:46
Originally by: Sorja
Originally by: FatHed
It's really as simple as this, cheaper prices means more fun for everyone.


I second that.

No way will many 'take risks' with ships that require a long time to replace.
If EVE is meant to be a PvP game (while atm it's more of a ganking game), it should be possible to take your chances against unfavorable odds without having to spend your gametime grinding for ISK.

The whole tech II system is a mess. A total failure from a gameplay point of vue.


While that would be nice, cheaper prices with the current supply limits would just lead to over demand which would lead to higher prices, and bang we are back to square one. At the end of the day we all may as well accept the curent prices as they are. The fact is that unless there is a massive reseeding and/or build times and costs are reduced a fair bit, then prices will stay practically the same, especcially for those high demandhigh profit ships and mods. Tho if it's changed to the point where the profit incentive is not enough, then alot of T2 bpo will either stop being used or will just end up be ing produced internally for corp and alliance members.

Superbus Maximus
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.12.23 11:41:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Zephyrlin
I haven't seen a single person address the biggest reason that you'll always pay the same price for T2 items, no matter how many more BPOs are seeded.


Traders.

What happens if I get a bpo and I start making T2 items and I place them on the market for 10% less than all the competition? Someone else buys them up, and reposts them at the same price as the competition, and they get the profit I would have gotten.

CCP can't do anything to stop that. The same thing happens with named modules. Hell, I've done it. It's a fast and easy way to make ISK.

So basically, once the prices for an item are set, don't expect them to change too much as long as there are people running around doing this. While it's not the entire problem, it's a significant part.


Yes but trader's dont just raise the price they lower it as well the more trader's competeing to sell the cheaper the prices. Which is why seeding more t2 bpo's will lower the prices, but just how much remains to be seen.

Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2006.12.23 12:09:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Tachy
The other competitors and pirates (and the devs) add some risk into the situation.


How do pirates add risk to a T2 BPO holder? I would assume that most of the T2 BPOs are moved very, very rarely and they are surely not at risk in a station. At least for the hi-demand items, I also don't see how competitors add risk, since there are so few of them. In fact, the only risks at all that I see for T2 BPO holders are that: (1) CCP introduces more T2 BPOs or Invention turns out to be a viable option; or (2) CCP releases T1 ships/mods that are good enough to compete with T2 items (such as the new BCs). Both of these risks have recently been introduced, but depending on the numbers involved in the re-seed and Invetion, it may or may not reduce the value of the hi-demand BPOs. Unfortunately it seems like it will almost certainly reduce the value of the lo-demand items such as your ammo.

Originally by: Tachy

The only part that's a bit strange at the first look is the lottery. But at a closer look it is just as random as finding the correct exploration site or being the first in a belt with a lucky officer spawn or a BPC drop in a belt or an agent offering you the correct implant.


Here I completely disagree with you, and this is the whole issue--no matter how long you rat or how much you explore, you're not going to get loot worth 70 billion. And moreover, locations with the best loot are dangerous and people risk their ships (either to the NPCs or player pirates/campers) every time they go, whereas BPO holders can just sit in station and rake in ISK by the barrel. That is why the lottery is broken.

Tachy
Posted - 2006.12.23 12:52:00 - [140]
 

Pirates (in the widest sense): T2 stuff is produced from moon mining resources. Surveying, POS setup and fuel cost money, POS can be taken down without much work, transports can be shot down. These are parts of the T2 manufacturing process. Most good moons everywhere are in the hand of the strongest alliances for quite a while now. I know this because I spent half a bil Isk in moon survey drones and watched the changes for a while. The BPO isn't in danger, but your profits can change a lot when prices vary. Losing a transport can undo the profits for quite a while.

Competition: Many T2 items aren't highly profitable. With more competitors these will become unprofitable. If you bought one of those for a lot of Isk, you just burned a lot of money for a worthless piece of paper.

Invention: I don't think we'll see any changes coming from this direction. A tiny bit of the pressure is taken out of the system, but not more than some alibi system in my eyes.

Devs: Well, they're like Terry Pratchett's gods.


What did you say is a single okay officer spawn worth? 500mil to 1bil Isk at basically no risk past the usual environmental hazards your corp or alliance protects you against normally? The chance to find one of those is a couple of magnitudes higher than the chance to win a highly profitable T2 bpo.

How many highly profitable T2 BPO are out there?
Very few modules and ships. If 10% of the BPO are higly profitable I am surprised.
Here we come back to the devs and their intentions behind the whole T2 system.

I can sit in my station and try to sit here collecting my money. But -at least with my BPOs- I would not be able to even rate my production profitable. I would not be able to sell only half the goods. I have to move the stuff all week long to the markets. I have been attacked hauling goods in the past and I learned not to move stuff around in an untanked industrial. With the contract system you can't use courier jobs any longer for 'secret' transports because the search doesn't stop at the courier job parcel's skin.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.12.23 13:12:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Croglett
The before 'fun' ships I used to fly in gangs, that cost no more than 20M around 8 months ago, now would cost me hmm lets see, for say my usual gang/fleet caracal;



Market economics. And CCP's deliberate choice to inflate prices.

Croglett
Posted - 2006.12.23 13:48:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Rose Wing
Edited by: Rose Wing on 22/12/2006 16:20:43
Additionally, I know where the latest re-seed of Vaga Blue print went. It's in the hands of a large alliance. The name, I will not say...thats their business...but...it's good to have an alt that is a friend I say!!! And the cost to me(or other character of mine) well...love and happieness foreverTwisted Evil


ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AGAIN in the HANDS of an ALLIANCE.....them vaga's wont even touch anyone else.....stupid lottery.

The t2 market is damn silly, its completely not like RL at all, in some ways it is, but not many.

I mean, you can make so much isk off reselling without even touching low sec....wtf?

Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2006.12.23 17:17:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Tachy
Pirates (in the widest sense): T2 stuff is produced from moon mining resources. Surveying, POS setup and fuel cost money, POS can be taken down without much work, transports can be shot down. These are parts of the T2 manufacturing process. Most good moons everywhere are in the hand of the strongest alliances for quite a while now. I know this because I spent half a bil Isk in moon survey drones and watched the changes for a while. The BPO isn't in danger, but your profits can change a lot when prices vary. Losing a transport can undo the profits for quite a while.


Point taken, although this risk of losing a bit of profit can be mitigated by proper supply/security arrangements and is not nearly as significant as losing the BPO, which is impossible except corp theft, etc.

Originally by: Tachy
Competition: Many T2 items aren't highly profitable. With more competitors these will become unprofitable. If you bought one of those for a lot of Isk, you just burned a lot of money for a worthless piece of paper.

Agreed, but many people who spend billions on buying T2 BPOs think they are guaranteed a return on it--but they are not. Spending that much on a T2 BPO is a risky endeavor.

Originally by: Tachy
Invention: I don't think we'll see any changes coming from this direction. A tiny bit of the pressure is taken out of the system, but not more than some alibi system in my eyes.

Agreed, but I had hoped for a lot more; not so much for price reductions, but so that it would be possible to participate in the process. Way out of my reach ATM.

Originally by: Tachy
What did you say is a single okay officer spawn worth? 500mil to 1bil Isk at basically no risk past the usual environmental hazards your corp or alliance protects you against normally? The chance to find one of those is a couple of magnitudes higher than the chance to win a highly profitable T2 bpo.

First, I don't count those kind of spawns because as I understand it they are camped by Alliances and off limits for most of the player base. Even if you do consider them, the chance of "winning" 500m to 1 bln via a lucky spawn should be orders of magnitude higher than winning a BPO worth 70 bln. I don't really care about most of the T2 BPOs, only those that allow play in god-mode--I'm sure there aren't many of these--a few dozen? But that is a few dozen too many.

Originally by: Tachy
I can sit in my station and try to sit here collecting my money. But -at least with my BPOs- I would not be able to even rate my production profitable. I would not be able to sell only half the goods. I have to move the stuff all week long to the markets. I have been attacked hauling goods in the past and I learned not to move stuff around in an untanked industrial. With the contract system you can't use courier jobs any longer for 'secret' transports because the search doesn't stop at the courier job parcel's skin.

Well, it sounds like you've got to work a bit for your money, which is how it should be. And frankly, it sounds like many T2 BPOs are more trouble than they are worth. But at least you're able to play this aspect of the game, which is off-limits to most players. I've tossed my hat in the ring for the T2 lottery, and am generally grinding away to earn enough to move up in the world, but the whole process is pretty barren of results unless I get a lucky number, win my Vaga BPO (or whatever) and basically retire from EVE, which frankly doesn't sound very fun either.

Arian Snow
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.12.24 00:49:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Sylthi
Edited by: Sylthi on 20/12/2006 10:44:38
This is something I am surprised no one has suggested before, at least where I have seen it at least, but how about T2 loot drops? Make them not nearly as common as T1 loot, but much MORE common than officer stuff. In this way the current (out of control) lottery system would not have to immediately be overhauled, but a limited number of T2 items would start coming into the market from sources OTHER than the monopoly builders. This would FORCE them to lower there prices through shear volume of competition. I really don't see a downside here.... I mean you already have officer stuff appearing in loot drops that in some cases is WAY better than T2 equipment, so what would be the problem with putting single instance T2 items in drops as well? This could even help level out some of the out of control T2 ship prices as well. (Like the Vagabond and Cerberus.) I mean if limited run faction ship BPCs can drop in loot, why not T2 ships too? Ok, I've opened myself up for it, so flame away and tell me how stupid my idea is and how it could never work. Wink Cheers all!


Thats a very good idea and quite sensible!

Spaced Skunk
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.12.24 13:42:00 - [145]
 

Prices have started to drop, quite considerably.

But for things that people use a lot, like weapons and tanking modules, prices still remain the same unfortunatly.

El Marchetto
Posted - 2006.12.24 13:48:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: El Marchetto on 24/12/2006 13:59:26
Originally by: FatHed
It's really as simple as this, cheaper prices means more fun for everyone.


Thats exactly the point, its a GAME, its meant to be FUN...
Of course if your idea of fun is to have an elite who play on easy mode, and this makes you feel better about yourself, well, you'll not appreciate the unwashed masses having access to the same facilities as you. Afraid of the competition? Very anti-competition I'd say Laughing

Edit: there's something else I'm curious about. Butter Dog posted how an alt actually GOT a T2 BPO in the re-seeding, and was honest about how much 'infrastructure' it took to commence producing a T2 mod. Vwey little actually, a couple of skills, some buy orders, and hey presto, the isk pringing machine is up and running. See that thread in Genral.

Not every T2 BPO is as valuable as every other, and there are still gigantic profits to be made IF you are a BPO holder. I don't build so I really don't know just exactly how many, lets say for example Cap Relays, you could build in 1 week with 1 BPO. The build cost taken out, then how much would you be making per week, in clear profit?

Does anyone have any first hand information please?

There are trillionairs in EVE from T2 production, who will never have to worry about isk again, no matter how long the servers stay alive, do we really need this elitism to continue? I'd prefer some real competition, just seed the T2 BPO's on the market, same as T1 is, problem solved...at least for the non-T2 BPO holders, which is 99.999% of the EVE population.

Bazman
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.24 16:16:00 - [147]
 

If the game is to progress, T2 needs to become common before T3 shows up. The way I see it, EVE as an evolving game needs to have technological progression just like real life does, we also need to take into account that it is also a game and that said progression can't take 5 years for T2 mods to become the new T1.

CCP needs to start looking at viable ways to make T2 more accessable to everyone. Even with invention, the average producers will most likely not see a T2 print ever and those that do, will end up charging prices just as high as the BPO holders simply because Demand is outstripping supply by such an incredible margin.

Its not fun skilling up to fly a HAC, grinding isk to buy one (Say a Cerb, 250 to 300 for the ship, 70mil for launchers, 40mil for 2 Invun Field II's, 10 for 2 Large Extender II's, 25m for 3 BCU IIs - A whopping 400mil isk, never mind the faction fitted cerbs) To get 400mil isk, your looking at 4 days of 12 hour NPCing sessions, or mining like a maniac for 4 days for 5 hours at a time. The grind for isk should be there, but its simply not reasonable to expect people to dedicate so much time inorder to afford T2.

IMO, this is what is putting PVP in the hole. I can't remember the last time I saw an Ishtar or Cerberus on the battlefield. People have migrated to using Eagles, Muninns and more commonly Recon ships.


anyway. Whatever

Vor
Posted - 2006.12.24 21:10:00 - [148]
 

Ok, ok let me write something, to straighten it out.

I have to give respect to this man Tachy, he posted “But I learned that a limited market can be influenced easily by people or groups with nearly unlimited wallets - and what hints are there to see the manipulations.”

And to this "Rose Wing"

Don’t want to bust your bubble, but I will be fare to you :)
One of the major problems and misconceptions of players in this game, and of people in the world is that there is such a thing a FREE MARKET. Well, read slowly--- there is NO FREE MARKET in the world and especially on T2 items or T2 ships in EVE. Any substantial owner of this BPO’s wants to maximize profits at all costs, and it only a natural that eventually we all get to know each other pretty well. We have bought up, and continue to do so in the future, all the T2 BPO’s from small owners, well they can’t just resist the weight of isk that we can throw around). These holders have massive amounts of money, and I am talking MASSIVE as in hundreds of billions. Using our corporations, and connections with other major owners and production corporations, mining corporations, and territories and so on we do our dirty business of making ourselves rich by simply milking every one else:) And very few people below know, well now you do, know of greater schematics behind this all. Maybe you will smarten up, maybe CCP will smarten up institute Sherman Act of 1890 in EVE, that will be the day :)

Well don’t be angry at me, or others. CCP made the game to resemble the real world and market system, what the hell they thought corruption will not take place, that we will not want to manipulate corporations, productions and wars: )
Peaceful world with out a conflict is no fun, there is no fast and big profits and names to be made. Just take a guess, how many major wars and conflicts in EVE were triggered by us, by less then 3 dozen players :) And from them all we made insane amounts of profits, bought ourselves new cars, went on vacations and so on :)
EVE economy just like in real world is all out structured around the WAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything made and developed is to improve war, so when the war starts out the 15% gain in ship performance you gain, which actively leaves you a live, becomes a lot more worth, when you are fighting for territory and resources. For this 15% people are willing do dash out money and so we raise prices, choose to what side and in what regions to sell.

We will never compete with each other, why, because in competition we all make less, but in cooperation we will make you pay more:) If to you it seems as there is a market competition, for us its simply get together on a TS and devise market allocations either by regions or by “customers,” arrange for collusions, bid rotations, price fixing and gouging and so on. Hell we will even go as low sell certain items, in certain regions, for a certain period of time, as to lure costumers to travel there for a bit cheaper price. At the same time we will get fees from CEO’s of certain pirating corporations for attracting “targets” to their domains through certain routs :) We get to sell, and still make more from “fees” and we get connections with “guns for hire” that are, well a “third party” as to say. When the time comes they if needed trigger another conflict:) Everything simple, very simple:)

Vor
Posted - 2006.12.24 21:12:00 - [149]
 

And, one more thing, the lottery system is great:) We get a good chance of getting what ever we want. People that usually end up with BPO’s from lottery have no interest, no skills, or no structure to create effective manufacture, so we step in, dash out some isk, and whola, its ours :) Back to our hands:)

If BPO for T2 became freely available and affordable on market, the prices will not drop lower then we wish for them, they will get cheaper, but we will simply raise the prices and limit the sales of needed minerals on the market, after all, we are the one to control 0.0 sectors. If we choose to, we will cut out of the loop from T2 massive production, whom ever we wish, as we can easily redirect, or afford to buy up all the needed materials from the markets for ourselves. Thus effectively, again becoming the only runners of the big businesses of T2. If any new rising corporation in T2 will not cooperate with us, they will simply go out of business, as we will make it impossible for them to mine for minerals, to transport and so on :)

Even if CCP will make T2 BPO readily available and cheap, the new T3 will not be so, and we again will be the first one to have them, for can you dash out 300-500 billion for a single BPO ?

There is a solution to the problem, it’ simple, practical, can be easily implemented with out great changes, however, we stand to lose our power grip if its done, so I want tell you:)

There is no control in EVE and no one is stopping us so we took advantage, sure it maybe messing up the game play for some, but take a look from our perspective, it is easy for us, and I personally get a kick from such power and manipulations, money is one thing but the fact that I can do it, and get away with it is another. In real world for such manipulations with markets as are done in EVE we would get locked up, or just pay up to authorities :)

So roll out T3, and make T2 for all who want :) He-he, CCP before implementing market policies needs to hire some detective in White Collar Crimes
Twisted Evil

Ihar Enda
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.12.24 22:00:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Vor
And, one more thing, the lottery system is great:) We get a good chance of getting what ever we want. People that usually end up with BPO’s from lottery have no interest, no skills, or no structure to create effective manufacture, so we step in, dash out some isk, and whola, its ours :) Back to our hands:)

If BPO for T2 became freely available and affordable on market, the prices will not drop lower then we wish for them, they will get cheaper, but we will simply raise the prices and limit the sales of needed minerals on the market, after all, we are the one to control 0.0 sectors. If we choose to, we will cut out of the loop from T2 massive production, whom ever we wish, as we can easily redirect, or afford to buy up all the needed materials from the markets for ourselves. Thus effectively, again becoming the only runners of the big businesses of T2. If any new rising corporation in T2 will not cooperate with us, they will simply go out of business, as we will make it impossible for them to mine for minerals, to transport and so on :)

Even if CCP will make T2 BPO readily available and cheap, the new T3 will not be so, and we again will be the first one to have them, for can you dash out 300-500 billion for a single BPO ?

There is a solution to the problem, it’ simple, practical, can be easily implemented with out great changes, however, we stand to lose our power grip if its done, so I want tell you:)

There is no control in EVE and no one is stopping us so we took advantage, sure it maybe messing up the game play for some, but take a look from our perspective, it is easy for us, and I personally get a kick from such power and manipulations, money is one thing but the fact that I can do it, and get away with it is another. In real world for such manipulations with markets as are done in EVE we would get locked up, or just pay up to authorities :)

So roll out T3, and make T2 for all who want :) He-he, CCP before implementing market policies needs to hire some detective in White Collar Crimes
Twisted Evil


lol

Oh, and T3 is gonna be invention based. Sorry to break your bubble.


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