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Hida Kage
Caldari
Knights of the Wild
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2006.12.15 18:13:00 - [1]
 

So I'm in a small three man corp which has recently added two friends (around a million skill points each) and we're trying to work out some fairly cheap PVP setups to try out in an undisclosed low sec (or 0.0) region at an undisclosed time.

We're limiting ourselves to about 40 million isk risked (about 4 hours of work for me on my mission running Raven). That's after insurance, so if an unfitted Scorpion costs 72 million, costs 24 Million to insure fully, that's only 24 Million risked. (Those number's are exactly right, but you get the idea).

We're fully expecting to lose the ships, but have some fun while doing so, even if it means charging into a 10 on 3 gate camp situation or other crazy fights. :-)

Anyways I'm looking for some reasonable PVP setups. I have about 6 million skill points (2 million in learning, sigh) and can fly up to Caldari Battleships reasonably. (Also can fly anything either Amarr or Gallente up to Battlecruisers).

One friend can fly up to Gallente Cruisers with good drone skills, while the other can fly up to Caldari cruisers (but prefers frigates) with good navigation skills.

I was thinking of running a Scorpion with 2 of each of the racial ECM jammers, Cruise missiles and Heavy Nos, and some form of armor tank and some of the new ECM boosting modules. Also 5 light and 5 medium combat drones.

My Caldari friend is thinking of running a Merlin with 2 Nos, 2 Rocket launchers, AB, Webber, Scrambler, Shield booster, and some fitting modules.

My Gallente friend is thinking of running a Vexor with 4 Rails, a remote Armor repper, Cap rechargers in mids and some armor tank. Also with 5 light and 5 medium combat drones.

Does this sound like a reasonable PVP group? Any other ships we should be looking at instead (that are fairly cheap)? Is there some particular skills for particular modules we should be training up?

Thanks in advance and fly safe,
Hida Kage

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.12.15 18:18:00 - [2]
 

train up for the NosDomi setup. 3 NosDomis are almost unkillable unless your enemy knows you are coming in them before hand.

EvilHauler9000
Posted - 2006.12.15 18:22:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: EvilHauler9000 on 15/12/2006 18:23:04
Ships I like for PvP:

Dominix
Typhoon
Brutix
Hurricane
Myrmadon
Drake
Thorax
Vexor
Stabber
Rupture
Blackbird - good for SD's and TD's too
Rifter

If any of you can fly tech2, throw in some assault frigs. I think a 3-man gang is too small to warrant an interceptor, you need all the firepower you can get.

EDIT: Oops, posted on my alt account.

Hida Kage
Caldari
Knights of the Wild
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2006.12.15 18:23:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Hida Kage on 15/12/2006 18:30:40
Originally by: Karash Amerius
train up for the NosDomi setup. 3 NosDomis are almost unkillable unless your enemy knows you are coming in them before hand.


Unfortunately, three NosDomi's exceeds the 40 million risk level. Although our Gallente pilot is definitely aiming for a Dominix. Out of curiosity, how well do they tackle? I shouldn't think they move particularly fast to get into the 20km range for scramblers or 10km for webbers. Or are you suggesting webber drones?

Hida Kage
Caldari
Knights of the Wild
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2006.12.15 18:26:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: EvilHauler9000
Edited by: EvilHauler9000 on 15/12/2006 18:23:04
Ships I like for PvP:

Dominix
Typhoon
Brutix
Hurricane
Myrmadon
Drake
Thorax
Vexor
Stabber
Rupture
Blackbird - good for SD's and TD's too
Rifter

If any of you can fly tech2, throw in some assault frigs. I think a 3-man gang is too small to warrant an interceptor, you need all the firepower you can get.

EDIT: Oops, posted on my alt account.


Hmm... Certainly could have our Merlin pilot switch to a Blackbird. So 2-3 Sensor dampers, webber, scrambler on the Blackbird?

Unfortunately, at the moment the only one who's remotely close to flying tech2 is me (about 8 days from Frigate V. Already have Engineering and Mechanic V).

Wilhelm Beck
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.12.15 19:08:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Wilhelm Beck on 15/12/2006 19:08:47
Given the preferences you list, I would be have my boys flying the ships they are.

My reasoning is as follows, you obviously want to have at least one e-war ship. then from there you want a tackler, or two, and a damage dealer. The scorp fills two of those roles, does decent damage and runs the e-war. The merlin is designed as a tackle, however if it were me I would have it set up differently. The Vexor can be quite scary with good skills, and is not a bad little ship. In an ideal gang i would be going caracal and thorax for your buddies, but again not a big deal.

I am assuming that you intend to belt pirate complex pirate or otherwise avoid sentries. So the lack of a real tank is not as much of an issue. Now, your attack is going to involve your frigate and vexor jumping in close to try to get a scam on your target. at the same time your scorp jumps in a bit further out to ecm and rain missiles down from range.

Now, first of all you need to get a point or two on your target before he jumps out. the only ship in the group with the speed to tackle is the merlin. he is also the only one with a scram. So a single stab or 2 will ruin your day, as will him getting popped on approach. Once he gets in range he has to be able to stay alive and keep his scram on. keep in mind that he is going to have to right on top of the target and thus getting nosed, webbed and scrammed is a very likely possibility. He should be able to hang on and kill light drones.

Your vexor needs to have a pint on it just in case your tackle goes down hard. further more the range on his remote rep is not very good, again making him a closer ranged ship so he can use it at all, this doesn't combine will with rails and smaller targets. I would suggest ditching the remote rep here and swapping in a 20 km scram and afterburner into his mids. He should then be able to bring the brunt of his firepower to bear without getting in close. From my personal experience the cruiser close in takes the brunt of the fire from targets, especially when it has a scrambler. you want to get this ship pretty tanked up. even if it means down gunning it, after all your damage is from drones.

For your scorp I would suggest a sensor booster, and some form of tank, but thats just personal preference not any good reason. Also, keep in mind that the scorp will have a harder time keeping up with you buddies than you might like. I might try it flying a black bird for a while, though this is primarily a mobility and cost issue. Blackbirds are much easier to find than scorps:)

Edit: Remember that in a gang it's not about having 3 good solo ships its about well teamwork.

Enigmier
Posted - 2006.12.15 19:54:00 - [7]
 

try using blackbird then any mix of the following - rupture, caracal, thorax, vexor.

cheap and very efficient 3 man group,

Nicocat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.15 20:14:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Hida Kage
Originally by: EvilHauler9000
Edited by: EvilHauler9000 on 15/12/2006 18:23:04
Ships I like for PvP:

Dominix
Typhoon
Brutix
Hurricane
Myrmadon
Drake
Thorax
Vexor
Stabber
Rupture
Blackbird - good for SD's and TD's too
Rifter

If any of you can fly tech2, throw in some assault frigs. I think a 3-man gang is too small to warrant an interceptor, you need all the firepower you can get.

EDIT: Oops, posted on my alt account.


Hmm... Certainly could have our Merlin pilot switch to a Blackbird. So 2-3 Sensor dampers, webber, scrambler on the Blackbird?

Unfortunately, at the moment the only one who's remotely close to flying tech2 is me (about 8 days from Frigate V. Already have Engineering and Mechanic V).

Ha! Noob without Frig 5! *point/laugh*

Naw, I kid, I remember getting into my first Jag. Finally felt cool to be in a T2 ship... anyhoo. I found 3 cruisers, mostly consisting of 1 ECM ship (damps or ECM), 1 heavy tackler (like a maller or a thorax) and 1 heavy damage dealer (like my rupture ^.^), work very well in a group. Alternatively, Battlecruisers make for wonderful gang fighters.

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.12.15 20:16:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Idara on 15/12/2006 20:16:29
Blackbird with Damps and maybe a multispectral, cycle the multispectral on the target, and if you jam...well...he'll have to relock with a bunch of damps on him again.

Then just do Heavy Neutron gank fitted Thoraxes...T2 guns if you can, 3x Mag Field Stabs, get some Valks for the drones...

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2006.12.15 20:44:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 15/12/2006 21:04:47
I am the Merlin pilot of which the OP speaks.

Thanks to Wilhelm Beck for all the input. The point about having multiple Scrambler/Disruptor equipped ships is well taken.

The three options that I saw for making a decent tackler on low budget and my SP allocation were:

AB Merlin with a Scrambler, Webber, Nos at close range (~5000km)
MWD frigate with Disruptor at long range (~20000km)
Blackbird with Scrambler, Webber, Nos, and/or EWar at medium/long range (~10000-20000km)


I went with the first choice because unless I get webbed/nossed, I can evade heavy fire and absorb light fire while still tackling, Nossing, and dealing some damage. However, that's a big 'if' and the validity of that assumption depends a lot on our target.

Option 2 is my next safest bet because I'm out of webber range, I can easily run if I get hit with a heavy Nos (but we lose the point of warp Disruption), and I can still evade heavy fire.

Option 3 looks appealing on paper, but it seems to me to be putting too many eggs in one basket that's not very manuverable or fast. It's still not that expensive, so I'd certainly be willing to try it.


The other route that I see working for us is to give up on the dedicated tackler ship and put me into a Caracal. The Caracal and the Vexor would each have Warp Disruptors and there should be at least a webifier or two between us to lock down frigates.

Thoughts?

[EDIT] And while I'm here, do the Blackbird skill bonuses apply to Dampers? Not a huge factor in my decision, just curious.

Horza Otho
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.12.15 21:59:00 - [11]
 

3 Abbadons with plate setups and remote repair drones in da drone bays + 1 large remote per abbadon, Megapulse in the rest of the highs, owned.

EPSILON DELTA
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:17:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: EPSILON DELTA on 15/12/2006 22:17:48
Quote:
train up for the NosDomi setup. 3 NosDomis are almost unkillable unless your enemy knows you are coming in them before hand.

If they only have 1mil sp, I'm guessing by the time they get a efficient nos domi setup the nos have already been nerfed.

Lenoor
Minmatar
Ero Guro
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:21:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Lenoor on 15/12/2006 22:39:09
Edited by: Lenoor on 15/12/2006 22:23:33
Alright, I think the way that you have it set up is pretty much money.

You have a long range, heavy damage dealer that will throw in some ewar, good. If you can use them, use cruise missiles. They won't do as much damage as seiges, but the explosion radius/velocity is more apt for non-BS ships.

You have a close range tackler, though what I would do is set him up to do as much damage as possible. Gankage still works for drones, as far as I know. Neutron blasters and rockets up top, AB, web, Scram, shield booster in the mids, damage mods in the low (havent't checked this, I'm at work, so I dont have either the client or QuickFit to see if it works).

Finally, you have a medium range "helper." I call it that because you should put him in a position to field his drones, ping him with his rails, and add a point to the scram factor (2 from the merlin, 1 from a 20km scram on the vexor). If you want to equip the remote repper, don't expect to use it til AFTER the battle. Otherwise, the setup sounds good.

Follow the general instruction of engagement given above by Wilhelm, and you should be OK I think.Wink

EDIT: Just stupid typographical errors...Rolling Eyes
2ND EDIT: Was looking at the item database, forgot that the Merlin only had 2 turrets, and 2 missile bays, so I adjusted my comment above.

GrumpyCat
Republic University
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:36:00 - [14]
 

Used this 3 man group to take on an apoc and cerberus. Killed the cerberus but couldn't bust the tank on the apoc.

Caracal with sensor damps(Replace with that sensor damping gallente cruiser)
Blackbird
Iskur for tackling


Hunter C8
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:52:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Horza Otho
3 Abbadons with plate setups and remote repair drones in da drone bays + 1 large remote per abbadon, Megapulse in the rest of the highs, owned.


This man speaks the truth.

Hunter C8
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:53:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: GrumpyCat
Used this 3 man group to take on an apoc and cerberus. Killed the cerberus but couldn't bust the tank on the apoc.

Caracal with sensor damps(Replace with that sensor damping gallente cruiser)
Blackbird
Iskur for tackling




Too defensive IMO, I dunno how you managed to break a Cerberus' tank and not lose anything to the Apoc and the Cerberus while it was alive...Beats me ugh If I was you I would of had one large damage dealer such as a blaster-rax, something along those lines...

Gor Kraon
Minmatar
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.12.15 22:58:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Gor Kraon on 15/12/2006 23:03:37
Ah didn't read the SP and Price limits... in that case this won't work.

Rapier/Huginn + Arazu/Lachesis + any pure gank setup BS = enemies that cant lock, move, warp or tank...

To fit into that price limit... hmm 2 celestis and the best damage ship you can. I wouldn't use a ECM scorp, but i think they can make a decent NOS ship... Then you still need damage though.

Phelan Lore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.15 23:08:00 - [18]
 

How about you in a scorp, 1 guy in a tackler, and 1 blaster brutix?

GrumpyCat
Republic University
Posted - 2006.12.15 23:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Hunter C8
Originally by: GrumpyCat
Used this 3 man group to take on an apoc and cerberus. Killed the cerberus but couldn't bust the tank on the apoc.

Caracal with sensor damps(Replace with that sensor damping gallente cruiser)
Blackbird
Iskur for tackling




Too defensive IMO, I dunno how you managed to break a Cerberus' tank and not lose anything to the Apoc and the Cerberus while it was alive...Beats me ugh If I was you I would of had one large damage dealer such as a blaster-rax, something along those lines...


Sit at 40km with 2x sensor damps on the apoc and 1 jammer on it. Long lock times caused by target breaks of the ecm ftw.

You could switch out the iskur with a rax as a heavy tackler. It really doesn't matter as long as you can keep your targets from fighting back. And if you pick on npc'ers theres good chance they won't have counter measures like sensor boosters.

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2006.12.16 00:01:00 - [20]
 


Deimos, Ishtar, Pilgrim/Rook

Extremely deadly, enough firepower to take out a Capital ship.

Hida Kage
Caldari
Knights of the Wild
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2006.12.16 06:09:00 - [21]
 

Just wanted to say thanks for the advice presented here. Some of which is more of a plan of what to skill for rather than what we can do in the immediate future (although still appreciated). :-)

Since we've gotten some positive responses on the ship choices (if not the exact layouts) we'll probably go with those for now and incorporate some of the fitting suggestions (or at least I will on the Scorp.) Sensor boosters probably are a good plan for what I'm guessing is the most common Ewar at the moment, sensor dampers.

Although, would 4x Cruise and 2x Large Rails be better than 4x Cruise and 2x Heavy Nos since the Scorpion is supposed to hang back the farthest? (All of which I can already use).

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.16 08:14:00 - [22]
 

2x damp vexor + damp celestis combo is always good. 2 friends been running around in just a vexor and celestis combo killing mostly cruisers but an occasional battlecruiser, battleship, or Hac.


A Scriv
Gallente
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc
The Company LLC
Posted - 2006.12.16 19:56:00 - [23]
 

id say, if u expect to loose the ships
grab 3 cruisers
celestis with 3/4 damps
caracal x2
should be able to take on bs with these in a group as with the celestis dampin they wont be able to target (unless they got boosters) i think this is a cheap and easy setup and u shoul dbe able to loose a few of them for the cost of the scorpion. just an idea until u get good as a gang

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.16 20:35:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 16/12/2006 20:37:28
Ship 1 Blackbird - ECM, armour rep/shield booster, rest ECM mods, and a Sensor booster

Ship 2 Rupture

Ship 3 Wholly crap Stewarts Orange n' Cream soda is awsome

anyways I sidetrack...

Ship 3 Thorax - Set-up as your Fast ship. Set it up so it can run a 2pt scram and blasters.

This should be a fun little group

Use Tech 2 gear to make up the risked isk amount.

You can always substitute the Rupture for a Nos Domi if you want to use more isk, but the speed of cruisers is valuable in small gangs

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.12.16 20:45:00 - [25]
 

Three stabbers.

Mistae
Inner Light Creations
Posted - 2006.12.16 22:06:00 - [26]
 

Maybe I missed something but how do you plan on preventing ships with multiple WCS or fast ships from just warping away?


A Scriv
Gallente
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc
The Company LLC
Posted - 2006.12.17 11:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Mistae
Maybe I missed something but how do you plan on preventing ships with multiple WCS or fast ships from just warping away?




put up with it. u cant get them all, all of the time


 

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