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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente
Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2006.12.15 09:21:00 - [1]
 

Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.

Nukeitall
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.12.15 09:53:00 - [2]
 

Oh lord, the armor tankers are going to try to kill us when they read this thread. I'd start running if I were you.

Caol
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.15 09:54:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.

No

Cookie Snatcher
Gallente
Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2006.12.15 10:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.

No


care to explain why not? I mean its not like you armor tankers have to train a rank4 skills that does nothing just so you can use capital armor repairers.

Caol
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.15 10:28:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.

No


care to explain why not? I mean its not like you armor tankers have to train a rank4 skills that does nothing just so you can use capital armor repairers.

Are we talking about capital ship modules here? Or the differences between armour and shield tanking skills. You make the assumption that both should be equal which I disagree with. And the skill does do a certain "something", perhaps you need to re-read the description.

You say its easy to increase grid, just add in a RCU or PDS. I can come back at you and say its easy to increase CPU, just add a Co-Processor. Both CPU and Grid increasing modules are low slot. In fact, the armour tanker could argue they are hard done by because, in order to increase grid, they have to sacrifice a low slot which may effect their tank whereas the shield tanker can increase CPU without having to sacrifice his/her tanking slots.

Lets not forget your proposed change to the skill would change it into a skill we already have ie. .Shield Upgrades.


Cookie Snatcher
Gallente
Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2006.12.15 10:41:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.

No


care to explain why not? I mean its not like you armor tankers have to train a rank4 skills that does nothing just so you can use capital armor repairers.

Are we talking about capital ship modules here? Or the differences between armour and shield tanking skills. You make the assumption that both should be equal which I disagree with. And the skill does do a certain "something", perhaps you need to re-read the description.

You say its easy to increase grid, just add in a RCU or PDS. I can come back at you and say its easy to increase CPU, just add a Co-Processor. Both CPU and Grid increasing modules are low slot. In fact, the armour tanker could argue they are hard done by because, in order to increase grid, they have to sacrifice a low slot which may effect their tank whereas the shield tanker can increase CPU without having to sacrifice his/her tanking slots.

Lets not forget your proposed change to the skill would change it into a skill we already have ie. .Shield Upgrades.




i guess you really have no clue. Dont try tell me that TSM is a useful skill, because it isnt. Its just not worth it for a rank 4 skill. Dont come telling here that increasing cpu is as easy as increasing grid. It isnt, just compare available modules and rigs (there are no rigs to icnrease your cpu).
Also you say that grid modules require a low slot meaning that you loose 1 tanking slot. Did you ever notice that there are usually more low slots on armor tanked ships than there are medium slots on shield tanked ships.
I wont bother talking about pvp fittings with you since there arent many shield tanked pvp ships.
Shield upgrades skill gives bonus to grid. So that totally irrelevant when talking about cpu.

Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Posted - 2006.12.15 12:36:00 - [7]
 

Keep in mind that shield tanks are balanced around the CPU. Shield tanks are already quite powerful, especially if you use faction gear. Just get a Gist X-Type XL Shield Booster and see what I mean. Armour tanks are balanced around grid, something a lot of other modules are as well. Hence why there are so many grid related modules and rigs. CPU is tight, but its not *too* tight.

I agree that Tactical Shield Manipulation is a bit mean to train to 5, especially with the bonus it is supposed to give. Though there have been times where I was happy I had it as I didn't have to bother docking and fitting an armour rep to fix 1% armour. (I'm lazy, bite me. Wink)

But a CPU reduction bonus is no good on it, for one there already is a shield skill that reduces CPU costs. Secondly, it would do a lot of nasty things to the balance we have right now. Shield tanks are quite a lot more powerful than armour tanks, but they are also much more skill intensive and you need to micromanage it perfectly to keep it working.

There are several reasons PVP ships don't often use shield tanks, for one, mid slots. Mid slots are very important for PVP because jammers and scramblers go in the mid slots, which shield tank also uses. Cap Rechargers also go into mid slots, and cap batteries and cap boosters. Afterburner/MWD goes into the midslots too. This often leaves too little mid slots to fit a shield tank.

Second reason is that shields are very fiddly and require micromanagement, something you often can't do in the heat of a pvp battle, especially not with people sucking your cap and all. Armour tanks are slower and more cap efficient, meaning you don't have to pay attention to your repairer every 3 seconds to make sure it's not eating away all your capacitor.

What could be a good bonus on Tactical Shield Manipulation is a difficult question, you could consider to have it lower the signature radius by making your shield smaller without losing strength. Or you could go for a passive resist bonus perhaps, but not too large. Alternatively, you could go and make it mitigate the critical hit damage. These are just ideas, and most likely too unbalancing (Sig radius reduction -> uber inties, shield resist bonus -> uber T2 shield tankers), but be creative. Razz

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.15 13:16:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2006 13:26:26
A few other ideas possible for it:
+10% bonus to cycle time / duration of hardners per level
-5% bonus to capacitor usage of hardners per level
+2% bonus to active hardner resists per level when active (50% one at L5 becomes 55%)


Originally by: Mike Yagon
I agree that Tactical Shield Manipulation is a bit mean to train to 5, especially with the bonus it is supposed to give. Though there have been times where I was happy I had it as I didn't have to bother docking and fitting an armour rep to fix 1% armour.


So, wait, you mean to say that Tactical Shield Manipulation at Level 5 IS NOT BROKEN ANYMORE ?
When did they fix it so that it finally gives you the bonus it's supposed to give you (i.e. zero shield bleedthrough) ?

Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Posted - 2006.12.15 13:18:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mike Yagon
I agree that Tactical Shield Manipulation is a bit mean to train to 5, especially with the bonus it is supposed to give. Though there have been times where I was happy I had it as I didn't have to bother docking and fitting an armour rep to fix 1% armour.


So, wait, you mean to say that Tactical Shield Manipulation at Level 5 IS NOT BROKEN ANYMORE ?
When did they fix it so that it finally gives you the bonus it's supposed to give you (i.e. zero shield bleedthrough) ?

Or, wait, you're just assuming it works but haven't talked to anybody who has it at L5 already ?


It semi-works. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Caol
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:08:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Caol on 15/12/2006 15:12:51
Originally by: Caol
Lets not forget your proposed change to the skill would change it into a skill we already have ie. .Shield Upgrades.

This I meant in terms of a skill that lowers a fitting req of a module, not that it reduces CPU for said module, apologises for not making that clear.

Your arguement that skills should be changed to fit ships is fubar. Ships, if they indeed have a problem, should be changed relative to their classes and ultimately role. From reading your posts your arguements are all over the place - first we are talking about PvP, then capital modules, then slot layouts and now your moaning about bleed through. Summarise your arguement and put reasons behind them please Cookie.

Shield/armour tanking have advantages and disadvantages. Indeed, in some situations one is preferred over the other. Indeed, your ship setup determines the efficiency of your tanking to a high degree, but then I need to say that like Newcastle needs coal.

Cookie Snatcher
Gallente
Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:24:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Caol
Edited by: Caol on 15/12/2006 15:12:51
Originally by: Caol
Lets not forget your proposed change to the skill would change it into a skill we already have ie. .Shield Upgrades.

...
Your arguement that skills should be changed to fit ships is fubar. Ships, if they indeed have a problem, should be changed relative to their classes and ultimately role. From reading your posts your arguements are all over the place - first we are talking about PvP, then capital modules, then slot layouts and now your moaning about bleed through. Summarise your arguement and put reasons behind them please Cookie.
...

OMFG, if there was learning skill in real life you would have it at lvl0. First of all i said that the skill is broken and should be changed to do something useful. Then you came and started to talk about totally irrelevant crap about tanking slots etc. I just made some examples so ppl like you get a better picture, guess it didnt work. Plz read my posts once again and show me where i moaned about bleed through. Also in mentioned only briefly about capital shield booster because its the only reason anyone would train this skill to lvl5 atm.
Oh and char as young as yourself shouldnt be talking about stuff that you dont know. I hope not to see you posting anything stupid on forums ever again.

Commander Morgoth
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:29:00 - [12]
 

/agreed

Commander Arwen
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:30:00 - [13]
 

Good idea.

Constituo
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:31:00 - [14]
 

2% is not enough. It should be 3%!

Lambaants
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:32:00 - [15]
 

/Signed

putukas
Amarr
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
Posted - 2006.12.15 15:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: putukas on 15/12/2006 15:44:20
Edited by: putukas on 15/12/2006 15:43:59
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.


/signed

And those who think that shield tank is better then armor tank are either ******ed and never been in mathematics class or they never heard about shield tanking.

I fly both, caldari and amarr. My apoc would tank raven out more then enough. Raven cant tank ****.

Look at Tournament, how many shield tanks did you see???? I think expect us there was NONE.


Caol
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.15 16:18:00 - [17]
 

So much hot air.

@ Cookie: Im sorry I ever posted in this thread, I realise now the saying: trying to debate with a fool will make you look like one too. Though thanks for the new quote Razz

@ Everyone else: Come'on, back up your reasons with common sense.

ie. By the way, yes I am ******ed, please do show me the maths. Your Raven doesn't shield tank as well as an Apoc armour tanks. When was everything meant to be the same brand of vanilla? Please post some setups. Also, when was the PvP tournament meant to be a gauge of anything being balanced?

No, don't answer these questions because, like my first post in this thread, the simple plain staring you straight in your face knock you out of the park fly you to the moon take your daughter to the prom make me some cheddar get in mah belly truth is NO, they're not meant to be the same and by implication neither are the skills.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.15 16:46:00 - [18]
 

I would like it if the Skill actually worked... 2.5 years it has been broken. I've had it at level 5 since I was new to the game thinking it worked. I have taken damage below 25% capacity since day 1.

I haven't done extensive testing since Rev, but I imagine it is still a Broken skill.

I'd say change what the skill does, or finally fix this skill so it actually works.

For anyone who says it has worked in the past, you don't know the skill. At Level 5 I am supposed to not receve damage leakage, but I do everytime, all the time. Damage seeps through the shields beginning at 24% if the hit is hard enough. Small hits are blocked by the shields until it gets lower to say 10%

The proof is having to use a small rep after any ratting where I was watching TV and let my shields fall to 10-20%. Hate logging off with a bit of damage to my ship. A pet peve.

Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Posted - 2006.12.15 19:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: putukas
Look at Tournament, how many shield tanks did you see???? I think expect us there was NONE.

I guess you didn't watch the previous tourney.

Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
OMFG, if there was learning skill in real life you would have it at lvl0.

Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Oh and char as young as yourself shouldnt be talking about stuff that you dont know. I hope not to see you posting anything stupid on forums ever again.

I understand you're frustrated about the skill, but no need to use petty attacks like this.

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
For anyone who says it has worked in the past, you don't know the skill. At Level 5 I am supposed to not receve damage leakage, but I do everytime, all the time.

It seems our experiences differ, it has worked for me occasionally in the past. I think some more testing needs to be done. However, it doesn't always work for me either, so the skill is indeed not working as it should. It's kind of annoying that this bug still exists and I'd like to see it fixed some day. One can only hope. Smile

Unemployed
Caldari
Caldari State Institute of Advanced Engineering
Posted - 2006.12.15 20:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Since this skill is totally usless i propose the following change to it: make it to reduce 2% cpu usage per level on all shield modules.
You can easily get extra grid (pds, rcu, mapc, rigs etc), but getting that extra cpu is way too hard. So i only think its only fair if us shield tankers get some slack.


The skill does do something useful, however small. It prevents you from taking armor damage. Now maybe this helps or doesn't help shield users in the long run. But i've never been in a situation where I was like "Man if that tactical manipulation skill was more effective I bet i would won that fight!"

And I had to train the b!tch to level 5 so I can use Cap shield mods, who cares. Aint broke don't fix it.

Shadarle
Posted - 2006.12.16 04:43:00 - [21]
 

"The skill does do something useful, however small. It prevents you from taking armor damage. Now maybe this helps or doesn't help shield users in the long run. But i've never been in a situation where I was like "Man if that tactical manipulation skill was more effective I bet i would won that fight!""

Actually, the better TSM works the worse it is. This is perhaps the only skill in the game that is HURTS you the more you get it. It has been covered many times before why TSM worsens your tanking ability so I am not going through it again. I would rather this skill did nothing than what it does now...

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.12.16 09:39:00 - [22]
 

The skill doesn't have a percievable 'feel' to it but it does work. The DEVs have stated this before. I wish it wasn't the prereq to Capital shield boosting but it is. Deal with it. Shield tanking in EVE is pathetically easy.

Kamikaaazi
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.12.16 13:37:00 - [23]
 

i can bet all my isk, that if this skill wasnt a prereq on any modules, noone would even bother to stick it in your head.

Antares Andaris
Posted - 2006.12.17 00:08:00 - [24]
 

Yeah... just boost Caldari another 2%, because they are soooooo underpowered.
Only those folks who have everything complain about such small things such as
"OMG this or that skill wont make me even more imba"

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2006.12.17 00:27:00 - [25]
 

I got given this skill from a mission but I haven't trained it for a very simple reason - it would make me worse. So lets see - a high rank skill that makes you worse.ugh Why are people trying to defend it as is?

cheers

VaderDSL
Invicta.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.12.17 15:33:00 - [26]
 

I have had this skill at lvl 5 for a long time also ... it doesn't seem to do much, I start taking armour damage at roughy 23% shields on my Raven circa 10,000 shield hp's.

It would be nice to see ths skill perform a useful role, but what role? If it gets changed to something actively increasing shield tanks then it becomes unfair to armour tankers, and means an extra armour tanking skill would probably have to be introduced.

Maybe it would be best leaving it as it is as a gateway to the capital ship modules.

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2006.12.17 21:48:00 - [27]
 

I'm pretty new to this game and I've been reading threads on ships and pvp to speed my learning. It *seems* to me from my reading that shield tanking is a bit of a poor brother to armor tanking in pvp and only really seems popular in pve - ie Rupture is rated for pvp while the Cyclone is not. Is this actually the case?

Cheers

Sexorella hotz
SexyCor
Posted - 2006.12.17 23:06:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Yakov Draken
I'm pretty new to this game and I've been reading threads on ships and pvp to speed my learning. It *seems* to me from my reading that shield tanking is a bit of a poor brother to armor tanking in pvp and only really seems popular in pve - ie Rupture is rated for pvp while the Cyclone is not. Is this actually the case?

Cheers


All depends, I see both in PVP, though the shield tanks often have the problem of blowing their wad, by that I mean, if you aren't careful or if you lag out etc etc you will have no capacitor to work with. Also shield tanks are somewhat inferior in small group PVP where tackling and electronic warfare are important on all ships and require free med slots. I personally shield tank, the best take on it I can give you is typically a shield tank can absorb a lot of damage over a short time, armor tanks can absorb a lot of damage over a long time.

That said, I think the effect of the skill should be manageable, that is, you can choose to let the washover come through or not, as some are convinced it helps, some are convinced it hurts. To every man his own, but I think you should have the choice of manipulating your shields once you have the skill trained. That way all the cap ship pilots don't really have this annoyance to worry about. I personally like the washover cause it helps keep your recharge up, and tbh, it kind of makes sense that the washover has to happen, otherwise your recharge would crash out. But you know, say you have 20% shields left, your recharge is moving very quickly towards nothing. So letting your armor handle some of the stress I think helps the shield tank out.

skilzrulz
Gallente
0neZeR0 Enterprises
Posted - 2006.12.18 02:04:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Nukeitall
Oh lord, the armor tankers are going to try to kill us when they read this thread. I'd start running if I were you.


You sir are right :)

Ciphero
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.12.18 11:18:00 - [30]
 

Personally, I think the biggest issue surrounding TSM is that it (a skill that is possibly the least useful in Eve) is required at level 5 for the capital shield boosting doodad. Compare that to the capital armor repairer - I know which route I'd prefer to take.

Either make TSM useful in some way, or change the pre req. for the capital booster, kthx.


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