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blankseplocked Rigs => are they meant to be rare or commonplace?
 
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Tuco Santeriia
Posted - 2006.12.07 12:40:00 - [1]
 

Devs, please give us a definitive statement about whether rigs are meant to be rare or commonplace. Specifically, do you envision a system where players will fit multiple rigs on T1 PVP ships? Or do you anticipate that rigs will be primarily reserved for T2 ships and have the same value and scarcity as +4/+5 implants?

In the meantime, let's do a preliminary comparison of facts, prices, and skill levels:

1) Tech 1 Rig original blueprints cost about 130,000 isk.
2) The basic Jury Rigging skill is Level 2 and costs about 55,000 isk.
3) Advanced rigging skills are Level 3 and cost from 18,000-90,000 isk.
4) The Salvaging skill is a Level 3 skill which requires Mechanic 3 and Survey 3, both of which are Level 1 skills. The Salvaging skill itself costs 900,000 isk.
5) The Salvager I original blueprint costs about 300,000 isk.
6) All T1 ships have 3 slots for rigs.

These facts, prices, and skill levels seem to indicate that salvaging is a newbie-friendly mini-profession, and that T1 rigs, at least, are meant to be fairly common and disposable. However, until you give us a clear answer on the subject, the debate will go around and around. Please give us some clarity so we can offer better feedback on our part.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Ghoest
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:17:00 - [2]
 

Im curious about this too.

I had originally figured you could probably put a FULL set of T1 rigs on a ship for a moderately high butreasonable price - say 10-30 million isk.

I fugured T2 rigs would be way more rare in the 100-300 million isk range.



Id like to know if the plan is that normal plsyers can afford these on day to day ships or if they are meant for only rich people and people who never leave high sec.


Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 07/12/2006 13:28:59
there should be a blog about this, as this question has never been directly answered yet.

"we're going to do something about it on tuesday..."

so what, what we're really looking for is some insight into how you perceived rigs to effect the game.



Skyy
Caldari
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:34:00 - [4]
 

Give them a break, they are slowing monitoring drop rates and, my guess is slowing increasing them. This is the first correct move from them in a long time. Better to start of small, than flood the market with overkill in rigs.


Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:41:00 - [5]
 

They seem to be quite commonplace. Especially the cap ones, they seem to be breeding. There were many woots on ts last night from the scavangers. (This usually meant some circuit board was found). I would have joined them, but I'm a big scaredy. I don't want my blood sucked.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:54:00 - [6]
 

Given the very cheap price of the bpos I figured they are meant to be fairly common as items go.

Wouldn't complain if they are actually going to be rare though.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2006.12.07 13:59:00 - [7]
 

I would assume, that you need components from diffrent systems or regions. Seems we have a tone of one type, and very little of anything else.




ArtemisEntreri
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.07 14:03:00 - [8]
 


Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2006.12.07 14:08:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
I would assume, that you need components from diffrent systems or regions. Seems we have a tone of one type, and very little of anything else.


It seems that circuit boards are rare. And the various rats drop bits that make specific type of rigs. The serps drop stuff usesful for hybrid rigs, the evil, nasty, horrible bloods drop stuff for caps and so on.

Also it seems that if you take risks you get more and betterer stuff.

Player frigs give metal scraps, which screwed up my cunning plan to flood the market with rigs.

Tuco Santeriia
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: ArtemisEntreri
Linkage

While it may be encouraging that the Devs will tweak the salvage system, that statement does not give a definitive answer to the question of whether rigs are intended to be rare or commonplace.

CreEDLom
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:26:00 - [11]
 

Thatís awesome! I was hope there is a fix for the rigg stuff. Letís see what happens. Maybe we can start fitting with them soon.

Skyy
Caldari
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:33:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Skyy on 07/12/2006 18:33:16
Originally by: Tuco Santeriia
Originally by: ArtemisEntreri
Linkage

While it may be encouraging that the Devs will tweak the salvage system, that statement does not give a definitive answer to the question of whether rigs are intended to be rare or commonplace.


eventually they will be common... there's a fine line between common and another market overload catastrophe. rare is good for now, as they increase drop rates, and more people salvage... they will be common. its a t1 item, and t2 is also planned to drop in the lottery. so yes, t1 rigs are planned to be common. Look at it this way, this is a chance for all non-t2 producers to make some isk. its a rarity now... so get salvaging.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:54:00 - [13]
 

If one that follows the forums/devblogs/newsitems mainly has a humanly sane thought process, the ONLY conclusion he could have reched PRE-Revelations would have been that "rigs are meant to be something rather cheap, in between the price of T1 and T2 fittings for T1 rigs, and below faction/officer fitings for T2 rigs".
That was all-but-spelled-out in the posts regarding the INTENDED purpose of rig introduction.

I'm not going to discuss T2 rigs at all here.
___

Now (tractor beam BPO cost asside), assuming that the prices for the rigs vs rig BPOs follow sanity levels, one would expect unpopular T1 rigs to go for under 1.5 mil ISK, while popular T1 rigs might even go up to maybe 5 mil ISK, at "stable" prices.
In other words, average T1 "salvage material" component cost should be in the vicinity of 6k to 20k ISK, let's say 10k ISK average, considering how many of them it takes to produce a single rig.


Also, droprates for circuits from wrecks (needed in 6:1 ratios compared to other parts, and needed on average for half of the 11 types of wrecks) should have been MUCH HIGHER as drop rates of any other components.

____


Post-revelations however, you can see drop rates of circuits are at least 10 times, if not even 20 or more times LOWER as drop rates of other circuits.
In other words, around 500 times LOWER as they are expected to be.
I don't know where YOU'RE coming from, but 500 times lower is not a slight preventive pre-nerf, but a FULL FLEDGED DISASTER.

Ok, so let's just hope they increase the circuit drop rates by *500 (that's +49900% mind you, *not* +500%) compared to other component drop rates.
Really, that would only be the start of it all, the "most broken" part of it, the one that needs URGENT fixing.


But would that ratio adjustment suffice, if the current total salvage rates are kept in place as they are ?
Let's do more math now, shall we ?

Assuming you're a decent salvager, and assuming you're getting on average (like now) about one component per wreck salvaged (and thankfully, now, most of the time, about 30 out of 33 parts actually, you get a circuit), and further assuming you salvage ALL wrecks in the minimum 10 seconds cycle time (can be done) and don't waste much time moving around, and always move behind somebody leaving LOADS of wrecks for you to salvage, that's STILL only about 300 parts per hour, at best.
NO, really, I'll be surprised if anybody goes above 200 per hour.

Now, our "desired" average price per part is around 10k isk, with a realistic 200 parts salvaged per hour, the full-time salvager is raking in a whooping 2 mil profit.
Hmmz, see anything wrong here ? Why bother salvaging for 2 mil/hour if you could just hit the veldspar belt in an osprey and make MORE, with LESS effort ?
Ok, ok, so you say you could salvage 300 parts or even 500 parts per hour if you're really insanely fast and work with several L4 mission runners, and there's nothing wrong with a 20k ISK pricetag per material... well, that's still only a mere 10 mil/hour max income, and don't tell me the L4 runners wouldn't also want a part of that "profit" (ISK or materials or ready-made rigs, doesn't matter, idea is you just CAN'T make that much).


Clearly, the "target" price of components has no chance of ever stabilising to the desired levels unless the rate of "salvaged components" is also drastically increased, on top of the already spectacular drop rate increase for circuits.
I would say an overall minimum limit of 1 component per small, 2 per medium and 4 per large wreck is mandatory, with maximum salvage amounts of probably 4, 8 and 20 components respectively.
Now, THAT would ensure the desired values.
___

SO IN CONCLUSION ?

1. Drop rate needs to be increased to about *5 of current level (ISK/h)
2. Drop ratio for each of the circuits must be changed to average 7.5:1 compared to *any* other components (build need balance is 3*100:40)

THEN it's OK

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:56:00 - [14]
 

The way I thought it was meant to be was that Salvaging was a mini-profession which was simple to get into but difficult to master.

That droves of salvaging newbies would supply manufacturers with parts they needed to build rigs and sell them at premium prices.

Rigs were meant to be rare, not at all common place. They were a reward for those pilots that took the time to invest time and effort into the mini-profession.

Cadiz
Caldari
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:00:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Cadiz on 07/12/2006 19:00:46
Originally by: Kylania
The way I thought it was meant to be was that Salvaging was a mini-profession which was simple to get into but difficult to master.

That droves of salvaging newbies would supply manufacturers with parts they needed to build rigs and sell them at premium prices.

Rigs were meant to be rare, not at all common place. They were a reward for those pilots that took the time to invest time and effort into the mini-profession.

The pricing trends of the BPOs and skills would seem to argue against that, though. They suggest that at least t1 rigs should be relatively affordable and *fairly* commonplace.

And we should never confuse "difficult" and "tedious". Right now, manufacturing rigs is not difficult...it's tedious. It requires either mass amounts of purchasing off the market, or an obscene amount of mission/rat/player kill-grinding & luck. Up to this date most of EVE's mechanics seem to be pretty anti-grind, but between Invention and Salvaving...I'm starting to fear a shift in design direction here. ugh

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:09:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tuco Santeriia
Devs, please give us a definitive statement about whether rigs are meant to be rare or commonplace. Specifically, do you envision a system where players will fit multiple rigs on T1 PVP ships? Or do you anticipate that rigs will be primarily reserved for T2 ships and have the same value and scarcity as +4/+5 implants?

In the meantime, let's do a preliminary comparison of facts, prices, and skill levels:

1) Tech 1 Rig original blueprints cost about 130,000 isk.
2) The basic Jury Rigging skill is Level 2 and costs about 55,000 isk.
3) Advanced rigging skills are Level 3 and cost from 18,000-90,000 isk.
4) The Salvaging skill is a Level 3 skill which requires Mechanic 3 and Survey 3, both of which are Level 1 skills. The Salvaging skill itself costs 900,000 isk.
5) The Salvager I original blueprint costs about 300,000 isk.
6) All T1 ships have 3 slots for rigs.

These facts, prices, and skill levels seem to indicate that salvaging is a newbie-friendly mini-profession, and that T1 rigs, at least, are meant to be fairly common and disposable. However, until you give us a clear answer on the subject, the debate will go around and around. Please give us some clarity so we can offer better feedback on our part.

Thanks in advance for your response.


that was exactly what i had thought and hoped for... i dont mind t2 to be way up there, but t1 i always thought that i could easily save enough and put it on t1 even frigs for special purpose fitting and they are 1 time like implants so it goes boom with the ship... i can not understand how they did this system its a bit lame atm...

if anything rigs should have grade... low, normal and t2

low end should be 50-75% of the normal rig atm.. and t2 should be quite nice in comparison but quite rare to the normal t1

at most low grade ones should be viable up to cruiser sized ship, normal grade would be for bs and other ships, in cost of themÖ it wont stop you for putting it on a cheap ship if you have the isk but I think thatís how the tables should be set

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kylania
The way I thought it was meant to be was that Salvaging was a mini-profession which was simple to get into but difficult to master.

That droves of salvaging newbies would supply manufacturers with parts they needed to build rigs and sell them at premium prices.

Rigs were meant to be rare, not at all common place. They were a reward for those pilots that took the time to invest time and effort into the mini-profession.


that is wrong they are the same as implants... and should fallow the prices and rarity rules that of like implants

you plug them in once and thats it, and they die with ship or if you repackage it... and since every ship has slots it does not mean that they are to never see rigs that is stupid, rigs were meant to be 1 time items to fit on a ship to give people more variety and abilities with some of these ships compared to the past system without them, were only items you could fit on ship and limited by the configuration and ships cpu/pg

Alex Under
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:17:00 - [18]
 

Well I would tell people to cash in now while salvage modules are still being bought for a high price. I've sold all of mine over the weekend and also most last night and made a small fortune. I imagine in a few months you will see the market full of them. People are just trying to get their hands on the first rig modules, can't blame them for wanting to be some of the first people with Rigs in their ships.


 

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