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blankseplocked Caldari, ships, missles, and the complaints they get
 
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Arian Snow
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.27 00:10:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Arian Snow on 27/11/2006 00:11:33
Originally by: Grey Area

OH, I think there's grounds for complaint there. We get given a new set of skills just under a year ago that require an investment of 22,784,000 skill points training (missiles). Now CCP admit that Caldari suck in fleet combat, but instead of addressing the REAL problem (which is the fact that MISSILES suck in fleet combat), they give us a ship type we haven't had to train for before, with 20,992,000 skill points of training required (Hybrids).

And yes, I know, the poor ol' Minmatar already suffer with this "split weapons" problem...but they have had four years to get used to the idea, we have had a couple of months.




That is flawed logic... not everyone has played the game for 4 years... Also you dont 'get' used to training alot, we all get alottet the same amount of training time.
Also you have ships with hybrid bonuses, not our fault you didn't train for those!


Still Caldari is pretty much fine, you can choose any damage type you want with no penalty, usually, and your EWAR is sick, even more after Kali since its nerfed on every ship save your Ewar boats... Also we have Target Painters for Gods sake!!

So you dont really have a pardon to whine since you have absolutely nothing of value to whine about! And yes I consider this thread a whine, else its pointless!

Koloch
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.27 01:59:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann

...use the right context before you complain.

1V1 my kills in a Raven, Caracle, Cerbrus, take your pick, do not really exist. No pilot remains taking hits. They ALL warp out once they realize the damage comming and the damage in space will kill them. Vs a turret user once the battle goes their way you just Pray the rounds dont' go off or your dead cause of instant damage.


right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..damn..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.


Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.27 03:47:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 27/11/2006 03:49:19
Quote:
right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..****..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.


I am not flaming you first off.. But this reply was exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Your post is indicative of a person who is responding on emotion, assumptions, and not much else. For instance you raise mid slots as making a ship overpowered. Since you fly amarr. what other than Cap rechargers do you need in the mids? a tracking disruptor maybe? a Sensor damper? ECM not meant for it on a apoc. Kali reinforces this. You mention items that clearly show you comparing Caldari and their abilities by sticking those abilities on your ships strong points. Thinking WOW if I had 6-8 mid slots I would rule in my APOC. I fly apocs, not T2, but T1. I fly Gal on a solid T2 platform. I fly Caldari on a solid T2 platform. I just don't fly Mini.

You also say I'm going to say Amarr are just fine, and that I would say you buy expensive officer mods. I find this interesting, and I won't comment on this any further after I say... You my friend are the sultan of presumption.

BUT if you really can tell what I would say to you, and you can read the future. Then please give me your contact information I NEED you to work for my buisness!

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.27 04:23:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Quote:
In all three cases, the sig radius difference can be made up by using a single target painter.


Which requires a mid slot sacrificing the tank even further. If you read the post before talking about all the potential mods we can fit to eliminate the inate drawbacks of our ships we sacrifice tanking ability. cover all our bases and we have no mid slots for tanking.


And to get a tracking mod on, a turret ship has to give up either a low or a mid slot, which will effect either tanking or tackling. Nobody gets anything for free.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.27 05:52:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
And to get a tracking mod on, a turret ship has to give up either a low or a mid slot, which will effect either tanking or tackling. Nobody gets anything for free.


That is correct. But a mid slot tracking mod on a armour tanker does nothing to your tank, just maybe it's duration if you can't put a cap booster, or a recharger in. You have an option, give up some tank, or don't give up some tank to achieve the same thing.

Missle users don't have that luxury. We either use a painter and sacrifice tank or don't use it at all, and painters arn't that powerful, I've used them and am skilled in them. I prefer tracking mods with my rails any day for the benifit I get, and for missles we have to have teh target locked so in long range it's pointless. racking mods affect your ship. IF they created a module that reduced missle explosion radius before the missle is fired, then that would be overpowered, but painters don't work like that. Is this unfair for Caldari. NO! Our weapon system slightly offets this and our ships balance with the missles.


Koloch
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.27 06:13:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 27/11/2006 03:49:19
Quote:
right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..****..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.


I am not flaming you first off.. But this reply was exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Your post is indicative of a person who is responding on emotion, assumptions, and not much else. For instance you raise mid slots as making a ship overpowered. Since you fly amarr. what other than Cap rechargers do you need in the mids? a tracking disruptor maybe? a Sensor damper? ECM not meant for it on a apoc. Kali reinforces this. You mention items that clearly show you comparing Caldari and their abilities by sticking those abilities on your ships strong points. Thinking WOW if I had 6-8 mid slots I would rule in my APOC. I fly apocs, not T2, but T1. I fly Gal on a solid T2 platform. I fly Caldari on a solid T2 platform. I just don't fly Mini.

You also say I'm going to say Amarr are just fine, and that I would say you buy expensive officer mods. I find this interesting, and I won't comment on this any further after I say... You my friend are the sultan of presumption.

BUT if you really can tell what I would say to you, and you can read the future. Then please give me your contact information I NEED you to work for my buisness!


a fair reply, and not taken as flamming.

it is a common understanding that mid slots are more powerful than low slows -being that they offer you more flexibility in a setup. you stated that you can't solo pvp in a missile boat because your target warps off. I was replying to that statement by saying "me too" though it's usually because I can't fit a scrambler -read: atleast you have that option. I agree that missles at long range can be frustrating, and that some of your ships run out of cap in long warps, but really in the grand picture of things these are really really small things to deal with.

As for me saying I know what your response will be...well take it for what it was. A comment made out of frustration.


Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.27 06:40:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Kelgen Thann

...use the right context before you complain.

1V1 my kills in a Raven, Caracle, Cerbrus, take your pick, do not really exist. No pilot remains taking hits. They ALL warp out once they realize the damage comming and the damage in space will kill them. Vs a turret user once the battle goes their way you just Pray the rounds dont' go off or your dead cause of instant damage.


right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..damn..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.



what is with the mid slot fetish? passive tanking did not get a boost with kali, the shield recharge rate got nerfed to compensate for the extra shield. if you get killed by a passive tanking caldari ship you deserved to die becuase you did one of several things:
1. you did not warp, no non tech II caldari ship can run a decent passive shield tank without all of its midslots.
2. you were warp scrambled by them, but you couldn't break the equilivent of a small tech II shield booster tank...
3. You have no friends withen 10 jumps, because the dps on a passive tank ship is laughable. this is esp true wth warp to 0.



Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.27 06:53:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 27/11/2006 03:49:19
Quote:
right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..****..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.


I am not flaming you first off.. But this reply was exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Your post is indicative of a person who is responding on emotion, assumptions, and not much else. For instance you raise mid slots as making a ship overpowered. Since you fly amarr. what other than Cap rechargers do you need in the mids? a tracking disruptor maybe? a Sensor damper? ECM not meant for it on a apoc. Kali reinforces this. You mention items that clearly show you comparing Caldari and their abilities by sticking those abilities on your ships strong points. Thinking WOW if I had 6-8 mid slots I would rule in my APOC. I fly apocs, not T2, but T1. I fly Gal on a solid T2 platform. I fly Caldari on a solid T2 platform. I just don't fly Mini.

You also say I'm going to say Amarr are just fine, and that I would say you buy expensive officer mods. I find this interesting, and I won't comment on this any further after I say... You my friend are the sultan of presumption.

BUT if you really can tell what I would say to you, and you can read the future. Then please give me your contact information I NEED you to work for my buisness!


a fair reply, and not taken as flamming.

it is a common understanding that mid slots are more powerful than low slows -being that they offer you more flexibility in a setup. you stated that you can't solo pvp in a missile boat because your target warps off. I was replying to that statement by saying "me too" though it's usually because I can't fit a scrambler -read: atleast you have that option. I agree that missles at long range can be frustrating, and that some of your ships run out of cap in long warps, but really in the grand picture of things these are really really small things to deal with.

As for me saying I know what your response will be...well take it for what it was. A comment made out of frustration.



why can't you fit a scrambler? that is the question. 3 mids, injector, propulsion mod, and a scrambler.
BAM! there it is, nice to be able to fit a 5 slot tank, full gank ( 3 damage mods) and tackle all at the same time eh? That is something a caldari ship never gets to do. You can't fit a 5 slot tank, a propulsion mod, and a scrambler on any non EW ship. not that a propulsion mod is worth anything on the biggest pigs in the game anyway. The grass is greener on the other side buddy. lots of mid slots is lots of flexibility for non shield tankers.
Ravens' and sson to be rohk's have 1 de facto mid. 2 invuln's a shield boost amp, a shield booster, and an injector leaves one slot left. The rohk is a little more flexible as it can use range as it's defense, but hey, so can the mega, tempest, geddon, and apoc.

Koloch
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.27 07:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 27/11/2006 03:49:19
Quote:
right, now go out and try solo pvp'ing in a geddon..err..apoc..****..ah I give up. Caldari are the most overpowered race in game. They have the most mid slots. More variety in their fleet and more versitility in all of their ship fits...and that's right now. In Kali the Caldari can now run insane passive tanks that in a lot of cases out performs Amarr by miles, but the again like most people you'll probably tell me that Amarr are great with faction hardeners...oh ya and dont forget the faction webber we need for all of our ships.


I am not flaming you first off.. But this reply was exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Your post is indicative of a person who is responding on emotion, assumptions, and not much else. For instance you raise mid slots as making a ship overpowered. Since you fly amarr. what other than Cap rechargers do you need in the mids? a tracking disruptor maybe? a Sensor damper? ECM not meant for it on a apoc. Kali reinforces this. You mention items that clearly show you comparing Caldari and their abilities by sticking those abilities on your ships strong points. Thinking WOW if I had 6-8 mid slots I would rule in my APOC. I fly apocs, not T2, but T1. I fly Gal on a solid T2 platform. I fly Caldari on a solid T2 platform. I just don't fly Mini.

You also say I'm going to say Amarr are just fine, and that I would say you buy expensive officer mods. I find this interesting, and I won't comment on this any further after I say... You my friend are the sultan of presumption.

BUT if you really can tell what I would say to you, and you can read the future. Then please give me your contact information I NEED you to work for my buisness!


a fair reply, and not taken as flamming.

it is a common understanding that mid slots are more powerful than low slows -being that they offer you more flexibility in a setup. you stated that you can't solo pvp in a missile boat because your target warps off. I was replying to that statement by saying "me too" though it's usually because I can't fit a scrambler -read: atleast you have that option. I agree that missles at long range can be frustrating, and that some of your ships run out of cap in long warps, but really in the grand picture of things these are really really small things to deal with.

As for me saying I know what your response will be...well take it for what it was. A comment made out of frustration.



why can't you fit a scrambler? that is the question. 3 mids, injector, propulsion mod, and a scrambler.
BAM! there it is, nice to be able to fit a 5 slot tank, full gank ( 3 damage mods) and tackle all at the same time eh? That is something a caldari ship never gets to do. You can't fit a 5 slot tank, a propulsion mod, and a scrambler on any non EW ship. not that a propulsion mod is worth anything on the biggest pigs in the game anyway. The grass is greener on the other side buddy. lots of mid slots is lots of flexibility for non shield tankers.



lol, I'm not even going to waste my time replying to that jiberish. typical Caldari.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2006.11.27 07:56:00 - [40]
 

In an attempt to include both advantages and disadvantages in the discussion, I've tried to list the ones missing so far:

Further disadvantages

• least drone bay
• less base resistances on shield (vs. armor)
• optimal range bonuses by nature inferior to damage bonuses (and work poorly with divided hardpoints)
• turret ships have less hardpoints than other races' correspondent ships
• shield boosters hate lag (under heavy lag they may suck your cap dry, or you can't turn them on when you need to [can't run just 1 repper at all times like armor tankers])

Further advantages

• longest locking range
• highest sensor strength
• no weapon cap use
• shield tanking (by nature superior to armor tanking)
- cap injectors allow for very efficient boosting that excels in common PvP
- T2, faction and officer boosters and boost amps (bonus applied to a bonus)
- faction and officer boosters' efficiency in general
- crystal implants (are changing AFAIK, though? may still be overpowered with passive tanks)
- ability to passive tank (free repairing compared to passive armor tanks)
- Invulnerability field efficiency


• ECM (by nature superior to all other forms of EW)
• most EW specialized ships, including the only EW BS in game
• more utility high slots on average
• the ability of fitting damage mods without sacrificing tanking efficiency
• Damage Control Units is low-slot
• resistance bonus is by nature superior to armor repairing or shield boosting efficiency
• longest range "short range" weapons
• best PvE efficiency (ability to do 100% of certain damage type)
• best transport ships & highest cargo bay freighter
• most cargo in general

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.27 12:16:00 - [41]
 

You forgot that caldari with missiles generally do the lowest DPS and except for the rokh do very small damage because we have very few turret slots.

Basically our T2 ships don't have drone bays...

Hostile drones are not affected by ECM

Thats just a few...

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2006.11.27 12:37:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
You forgot that caldari with missiles generally do the lowest DPS and except for the rokh do very small damage because we have very few turret slots.

Basically our T2 ships don't have drone bays...

Hostile drones are not affected by ECM



Missiles' low DPS is negated by their lack of tracking. Actual average damage dealt is therefore equal to that of turrets, and in some cases better (e.g. Raven).

Hostile drones are not affected by ECM, just like F.O.F. Missiles.

Defenders are ineffective, as are smartbombs in countering missiles. Tracking disruptors, however, are effective against turrets.

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Thats just a few...


Looks more like your intention is to create an impression that there's a lot more. Above I've attempted to list most of them, so if you have more, name them.

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.27 12:52:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 27/11/2006 12:59:28
Originally by: Jin Entres

Missiles' low DPS is negated by their lack of tracking. Actual average damage dealt is therefore equal to that of turrets, and in some cases better (e.g. Raven).

Hostile drones are not affected by ECM, just like F.O.F. Missiles.

Defenders are ineffective, as are smartbombs in countering missiles. Tracking disruptors, however, are effective against turrets.



EDIT:
Ohh and for tracking disruptors turret users have 3 different modules to counter that while missiles have no module to lower the radius or boost the explosion velocity of missiles, which is the equivilant to turret tracking. Missiles also have delayed damage which is a severe drawback in pvp or long range engagements.
Missiles also don't have 300% wrecking shots which can instapop smaller ships if you are lucky.

Well, there are only FOF to about 50% of the launchers, and a phoenix can be immobilized my 3-4 smartbombs, I've tried it, and it works like a charm.

- Your also forgot that missiles have the largest clip size, torps at 0.2 while other BS ammo is at 0.1, that's double up, and is why caldari tend to have a larger cargo space.
- I have no idea why you added cap injectors as a 'caldari' advantage since gallente have an even bigger advantage using them.
- More utility in highslots? well caldari have the same if not less high slots than all the other races, so I would say that's a no
- Damage control in low?? why is this a caldari advantage, since they aid all races regardless?
- Best transport ships?? don't know about you, but I would choose a minmatar transport over caldaris any day of the week.
- You also forgot that caldari ship have the biggest sig radius
- They tend to be the slowest and being the least agile of them all and heaviest.
- Armor extenders gives ALOT more hp than shield extenders
- They also tend to have lowest scan resolution
- Since caldari shield tank, it's very hard to fit a tank and tackling at the same time.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2006.11.27 13:05:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Jin Entres on 27/11/2006 13:14:51
Edited by: Jin Entres on 27/11/2006 13:05:51
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

Well, there are only FOF to about 50% of the launchers, and a phoenix can be immobilized my 3-4 smartbombs, I've tried it, and it works like a charm.

- Your also forgot that missiles have the largest clip size, torps at 0.2 while other BS ammo is at 0.1, that's double up, and is why caldari tend to have a larger cargo space.


I'm aware of that, but ships don't always carry ammo, either.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

- I have no idea why you added cap injectors as a 'caldari' advantage since gallente have an even bigger advantage using them.


It was a point under shield tanking. It's advantageous to shield tanking because shield tanking by nature is heavy on cap but more efficient in tanking ability in comparison to armor tanking. This allows for some very efficient tanks. Most injector using armor tanking ships are Gallente that need the cap not only for tanking but for propulsion (MWD) and weapons.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

- More utility in highslots? well caldari have the same if not less high slots than all the other races, so I would say that's a no


The amount of highslots may be the same, but the weapon hardpoints are different. For example Raven has 8 highs and 6 launchers. It's damage is still on par with other battleships that use 7-8 weapons.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

- Damage control in low?? why is this a caldari advantage, since they aid all races regardless?


Because it's a low slot item that gives shield resistances. There is no midslot item that would give armor resistances. Therefore although beneficial to both, advantageous to shield tanks.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

- Best transport ships?? don't know about you, but I would choose a minmatar transport over caldaris any day of the week.


Personal applications vary, of course, but in general Caldari transports are above others (which is also widely agreed on) because of their ability to tank (midslots) while making use of cargo expanders, WCS or nanofibres.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

- You also forgot that caldari ship have the biggest sig radius
- They tend to be the slowest and being the least agile of them all and heaviest.
- Armor extenders gives ALOT more hp than shield extenders
- They also tend to have lowest scan resolution
- Since caldari shield tank, it's very hard to fit a tank and tackling at the same time.


I did not forget them. I was filling in the pros and cons that were not already mentioned.

--

Edit:

Quote:
EDIT:
Ohh and for tracking disruptors turret users have 3 different modules to counter that while missiles have no module to lower the radius or boost the explosion velocity of missiles, which is the equivilant to turret tracking. Missiles also have delayed damage which is a severe drawback in pvp or long range engagements.
Missiles also don't have 300% wrecking shots which can instapop smaller ships if you are lucky.


You're forgetting Target Painters. Wink

And you're right - missiles can't snipe. This is a thread about Caldari, however, and they happen to be getting Rokh, the arguably best sniper ship (soon™) in game.

And wreckings are part of the tracking system that favours those who manipulate the battle conditions (range, transversal) well. Guns also do barely scratching (like an unemployed DJ) hits, and the damage evens out.

I don't have a graph on hand, but the numbers speak for themselves when average damage dealt is compared between the two weapon systems on similarly sized and fitted ships.

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.27 15:00:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Missle users don't have that luxury. We either use a painter and sacrifice tank or don't use it at all, and painters arn't that powerful, I've used them and am skilled in them.


A painter or two can make Rage torps vs. BS put out some very scary damage, especially with Kali's changes.

Shield tanking interferes with tackling modules. Armor tanking interferes with ganking modules. Caldari are the only race to focus on shield tanking, and while the tackling vs. ganking tradeoff seems fair, it does mean that Caldari have a difficult time for solo work. This weakness can be negated with a single friend to run tackling. These tradeoffs made Caldari a clear winner in PvE (where tackling is less important) and small gangs.

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.27 17:54:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 27/11/2006 17:54:24
Originally by: Jin Entres

I'm aware of that, but ships don't always carry ammo, either.



Heh, well I use the cargo bay on my raven and megathorn for ammo, and not test dummies, construction blocks or refugeesRazz

Originally by:

It was a point under shield tanking. It's advantageous to shield tanking because shield tanking by nature is heavy on cap but more efficient in tanking ability in comparison to armor tanking. This allows for some very efficient tanks. Most injector using armor tanking ships are Gallente that need the cap not only for tanking but for propulsion (MWD) and weapons.



Yup, and since gallente are using their cap injector for more things the module is a bigger advantage for them than caldari. Either way the module aid ALL races. Besides it's a med slot module which means it will nerf a shield tank, just like you say a DM will nerf an armor tank eventhough armor tankers tend to have more low slots than shield tankers have med slots.

Originally by:

The amount of highslots may be the same, but the weapon hardpoints are different. For example Raven has 8 highs and 6 launchers. It's damage is still on par with other battleships that use 7-8 weapons.



You 'might' be able to say that about the raven in a med to long range engagement, but the damage from a raven close up versus a blasterthron is nowhere near comparable. Furthermore alot of the caldari ships lack a highslot compared to the other races, and since a highslot is valued the highest, caldari have a clear disadvantage here.

Originally by:

Because it's a low slot item that gives shield resistances. There is no midslot item that would give armor resistances. Therefore although beneficial to both, advantageous to shield tanks.



Nope, as stated earlier, the shield tanked ships tend to have fewer med slot than armor tankers have low slots. so you will still be able to fit the same number of modules tankwise as a shield tanker will.

Originally by:


Personal applications vary, of course, but in general Caldari transports are above others (which is also widely agreed on) because of their ability to tank (midslots) while making use of cargo expanders, WCS or nanofibres.



You are again making this into a situational advantage, it really really depends on what you are using your ship for. I for most use my transport ship in highsec, and I really couldn't care less about if I was able to shield tank or not. I do however like speed and agilty which is why I would choose minmatar. otherwise for tech 1 version I would choose the iterons, like probably 90% of the rest of the players.

Quote:

You're forgetting Target Painters. Wink




Actually target painters will not reduce my explosion radius or increase my explosion radius for my missiles. They will however increase the radius of the target which means they are just as useful for turret users. I was talking about a dedicated module.

I'm just having a hard time understanding some of your arguments. It seems to me that when you see the module is a low slot it's an advantage to caldri because they 'only' use med slot and will not ruin the tank like it would on a armor tanked ship.

damn that's alot of quotesRazz

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.27 18:19:00 - [47]
 

A point about target painters, Tracking mods affect your ship while a painter affects another ship, so painters are best used on a dedicated support ship. For both Missle users and turret users.

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.27 18:41:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Actually target painters will not reduce my explosion radius or increase my explosion radius for my missiles. They will however increase the radius of the target which means they are just as useful for turret users. I was talking about a dedicated module.


TPs are far more useful for missile users. As shown in an above post, there are only three BS that fall below the sig radius for large guns/missiles. Against all other battleships, transversal is the only other factor for turrets, and raw speed for missiles. Therefore, TPs are rarely useful in using t1 ammo against the same size class, for either missiles or guns.

AFAIK, there is no t2 turret ammo that penalizes the gun's sig radius--if they penalize something, it's tracking, and tracking is unaffected by TPs. However, Rage missiles have a much larger explosion radius than their t1 counterpart, and it's here that a TP or two can really shine.

A TP can theoretically help turrets in mixed-size battles, such as BS vs Cruiser. However, in nearly all such cases, the smaller ship will use transversal velocity to make it difficult to hit, with the low sig radius being an extra bonus. Therefore, the larger ship needs to either reduce the smaller ship's speed, use a setup specialized for speed so it can maneuver to reduce the target's transversal, or push the engagement range out so that transversal is less of an issue. In any of these cases, a web is a better choice than a TP.

There is a widespread misunderstanding of the missile damage formula regarding the effect of the target's speed. The short summery is that the target must be going at least the explosion velocity + 1500m/s for speed to have any significant reduction in damage. There are only a few specialized BS setups that can go that fast (e.g. the nanophoon), and even those will be sacrificing almost all their tank to do it. Therefore, sig is nearly always the most important effect in BS vs BS fights.

A specialized cruiser setup, especially with snake implants, will often go fast enough to effect the velocity part of the missile equations, as will nearly all useful interceptor setups. In those situations, the web is a better choice for both guns and missiles. But there are just as many cruiser setups that don't rely so much on speed, which makes the TP more useful in those cases for missiles.

Overall, TPs tend to be useful in far more situations for missiles than for guns. Likewise, a web tends to be more useful for guns.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.27 18:56:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jin Entres
Missiles' low DPS is negated by their lack of tracking. Actual average damage dealt is therefore equal to that of turrets, and in some cases better (e.g. Raven).
All your other points have at least a grain of truth in them, but this one I'm afraid, is just pure drivel. We don't have tracking, but we DO have explosion velocity and explosion radius. these two attributes work in the same way as tracking i.e. reduce damage of "oversized" weapons against smaller targets. A Torpedo, hitting an Interceptor pilot travelling at nearly 6000 m/s with a sig radius of 188 (because his MWD is on)...will take ZERO damage from a torp hit. I'm not a professional Interceptor pilot, but those are the top speed and sig rad of my interceptor, fitted with speed mods that cost only 30 million or so.

Turret users don't count a 0.0 hit as a hit...I don't count 0.0 damage as a hit...therefore missiles do NOT always hit.

Yes, yes, a Torpedo is the wrong weapon to fire at an Interceptor...so is a large turret, but that doesn't stop snipers taking them out at gates, does it?

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.27 19:01:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Frezik
Overall, TPs tend to be useful in far more situations for missiles than for guns. Likewise, a web tends to be more useful for guns.
Personal experience, rather than theory, tells me you have that totally the wrong way around.

1. When fighting in groups, if I fire my TP at a target, all my corp mates get better and more frequent hits with their guns..even on BS sized targets. We have shown this to be more than perception by looking at the combat log analyzer with and without using a TP...when the TP is on, turret DPS is highere, even IF the target already had a high enough sig.

2. A target painter is a long range weapon, a web is a short range weapon. If you can web something small, your big guns are still going to struggle to hit it because it is at close range...missiles won't. Conversely, Missiles still take an age to travel much more than 40km or so, whereas turrets don't...a target has plenty of time to realise he is painted and warp out before the missiles hit.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2006.11.27 19:30:00 - [51]
 

Grey Area and Lucian, please take a look at Tux's graphs.

Quote:
Yup, and since gallente are using their cap injector for more things the module is a bigger advantage for them than caldari. Either way the module aid ALL races. Besides it's a med slot module which means it will nerf a shield tank, just like you say a DM will nerf an armor tank eventhough armor tankers tend to have more low slots than shield tankers have med slots.


You missed my point. Gallente use the cap to sustain their guns and MWD which it needs to manipulate range. Caldari have no need for either. They have, however, a screaming need for cap to run their more efficient (hp/s-wise) tank. And that's what the injector provides - a solution to shield tanking's drawback.

Armor tanks' drawback is lack of efficiency. The cap booster does not help with that.

Quote:

Nope, as stated earlier, the shield tanked ships tend to have fewer med slot than armor tankers have low slots. so you will still be able to fit the same number of modules tankwise as a shield tanker will.


This has more to do with individual ship balance and slot layouts. All slots combined there should be no imbalance. Damage Controls are also not restricted to ships that have fewer mid slots - you can benefit from them in every ship.

Quote:
You are again making this into a situational advantage, it really really depends on what you are using your ship for. I for most use my transport ship in highsec, and I really couldn't care less about if I was able to shield tank or not. I do however like speed and agilty which is why I would choose minmatar. otherwise for tech 1 version I would choose the iterons, like probably 90% of the rest of the players.


No, you are. Transport ships are designed to tank, and that's what Crane and Bustard do best. For safe empire hauling the most cargo bay is the best choice, obviously (safety in empire is, of course, arguable). They are not called Blockade Runners for nothing. You may not make use of their role, but then you would be in the minority, not me.

Quote:
Actually target painters will not reduce my explosion radius or increase my explosion radius for my missiles. They will however increase the radius of the target which means they are just as useful for turret users. I was talking about a dedicated module.


Wrong. Transversal and optimal range are the more meaningful factors for turrets. A Target Painter helps your whole gang, not just you, like Tracking Computer/Enhancer does. I wouldn't mind if they released a module that improves explosion radius and/or velocity, though.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.27 20:01:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Grey Area on 27/11/2006 20:04:31
Originally by: Jin Entres
Grey Area and Lucian, please take a look at Tux's graphs.
Which proves nothing. This is a theoretical curve, with no mods or implants applied. Turret users can imrpove this graph by use of

2 implants
damage mods (low slot)
Tracking mods (low slot)
Tracking comps (med slot)
Target Painters

Missile users only get access to

1 implant
damage mods (low slot)

I am deliberately leaving out webs because there is nothing in Tux's graphs about speed. I have included target painters for turrets because I DO believe they affect turret hits, but have left them out for missiles because again, Tux's graph seems to be against a "full size" target.

Also note that within optimal range, 3 out of 4 weapon systems give BETTER damage than Torps. Torp damage being fixed at 450 also means it's easy to see that this pilot has no Torpedo skills...I assume the same is for the guns as well...I'd like to see the picture for a player with all the relevant skills at level 5.

EDIT: since one Torpedo has a payload of 450...I dispute Tux's graph entirely...to do 450 DPS (which is what the graph is labelled as) the Siege launchers would have to have a firing rate of 6 seconds. I think Tux has done something wrong with this graph.

Basically, Tux's graphs are about as artifical as you get. He's firing at a station, by the look of it.



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