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Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:57:00 - [1]
 

Ok. A lot of people whine about Caldari. I am all for game development feedback, and input, but please consider the following before attacking Caldari.. I also encourage people to create threads on thier own race.

1st:

Caldari are the most popular race. Have you checked out the description on Caldari! I started 3+ years ago, and after I read the description I was sold. I laughed at the other descriptions. I didn't read any forums, or anything. I even gave myself 1 point of Charisma to back up my claim.

FIX: Give the other races better descriptions

2nd: Caldari and the never ending Missle vs turret debate.

Yes missles can hit at any range for full damage (not taking into account explosion velocity, and explosion radius) against a ship that is bigger than the missle is designed to hit.

T2 missles, yes they do appear to be great.

BUT

People do not consider Missles being used by Caldari ships. They draw the comparision to how they evaluate their Turret ships. Instant damage, more variety, highly specilized, etc.

What I mean is... Peole forget the drawbacks of Caldari ships, and missles combined. Take Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems.

Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass...

The picture is Caldari have ships that are the easiest to lock on to, recieve perfect hits/excelent against them the most often, Recieve overall, the most damage against them, can't tackle well, can't get out of tackling range, if Caldari use a MWD, and shield extenders we have signiture radiuses of ships up 1 whole class when compared to other races. Look at the BC and then Mini Battleship..

Caldari do delayed damage so to calculate DPS, you have to begin the calculation from when the first volley hits, and turret users get more hits in before Caldari start calculating DPS, furthermore there is the tackler problem. We can't tackle and fight for multiple reasons, speed, agility, sensor resolution, mid slot module to tackle... We are also not valuable in Fleet battles. Only the Rokh, Eagle, are any good to have around.

Caldari and balance isn't about missles, damage types, etc. You have to look at the whole race, the ships, signiture radius, speed, agility, mass, sensor resolution, delayed damage, lack of tackling ability, can't utilize a MWD. Mid slots being used for a tank, and not tracking disruptors/webs, dampers, cap rechargers, we can't use cap relays with boosters, Cap boosters are Mid slot as well..

Now apply all these built in drawbacks into a turret ship.. You end up with one nasty ship that would never see the stars of space. Missles make the Caldari ships on par.

They are easy to use, and ease of use is often what people want (No worry about transversal).

3rd. Training Time

This is a pet peve of mine. I wanted to train Rockets, T2 Light missles, Heavy missles, and Cruise missles, and Torps. That is 5 T2 missle specilizations and their support skills.

I have also trained Hybrid turrets up to Large Rail specilization. Pure and simple if I chose just 1 turret specilization to train for they are pretty much equal, but the support skills for turrets applies to all turrets, so you can learn more weapon systems faster. Missle support skills apply only to Missles. Too often people say It's not fair I am training Turrets and missles is easier. Turrets is not a weapon class. Hybrids are, Lasers are, and projectiles are.

Did I have to train small then medium then large up to get Large hybrid specilization? I did, and it was no big deal. I had to train rockets up to get rockets, lights up to get lights, and heavies up to train heavies...

again equal.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.25 21:01:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 27/11/2006 03:57:26
Equal but different... I can skip a T2 weapon stage, but to my own disadvantage as I am not as versitile of a pilot.

the support skills I need trained completely to be even slightly effective. unlike turrets that are ok with mediocre support skills, missles need level 4's and 5's.

Lastly, damage at all ranges. I understand this, but Missle ships are pretty much stationary ships, and ripe targets. t2's make this even worse (javs)

So What I am saying is look at all variables before complaining about Caldari. Once you have, and demonstrate so in a complaint thread, by all means then your thread will have substance,and should be evaluated by your peers on that ground. But if you do not consider all elements and do not demonstrate it then your thread won't be seen as valid and it will be seen as a whine thread.

I am making a new edit

People complain Caldari can use any damage type.. Yes caldari can, but in teh heat of combat we are stuck using 1 type unless we load a different damage type. This takes 10 seconds, so if a caldari wants to test thier damage type on a target then they fire their salvos then reload when the fist hit? or load 1 of each type then switch all the others whnt they are hitting. This will KILL DPS, and the instant damage of a turret user will win out. Furthermore, in PvP most players fit a tank that has roughly equal resists cause they arn't sure what they will run up against. I know I won't tank pure Thermal, Kin, explosive and ignore EM, cause if I run into a EMP Vaga I'll have the EMP ammo slide between my pink butt cheeks of shields, then my untanked hull will slice up like butter.

Equal resists mean being able to select damage type is not much an advantage in these terms, the delay to switch types and reading and comparing logs lowers DPS and prematurely shuts off the damage of a missle boat, and delayed damage at that.

BUT I can say one thing I don't use EM ammo much cause I know Armour tankers have that in their highest resist. But then again other than amarr, an armour tanker can be sure they won't run into EM damage (there are exceptions).


Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.11.25 21:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Take Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems.



This is mostly irrelavent beyond the smaller ships. And last I've heard Caldari interceptors are quite good, so this is really not important unless you're being shot at by a larger ship. You should look at how much difference this makes, not all that much.

Originally by: Kelgen Thann

Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass...


They don't really need to. The few that do are fast enough as they are.


Originally by: Kelgen Thann


Caldari do delayed damage so to calculate DPS, you have to begin the calculation from when the first volley hits, and turret users get more hits in before Caldari start calculating DPS, furthermore there is the tackler problem. We can't tackle and fight for multiple reasons, speed, agility, sensor resolution, mid slot module to tackle... We are also not valuable in Fleet battles. Only the Rokh, Eagle, are any good to have around.



Yet they do some of the best damage in the game since they don't have to worry about the same things as turrets and can choose damage types. Sure their "on-paper" DPS may seem subpar, but it's very nice in actual combat.


Originally by: Kelgen Thann


Did I have to train small then medium then large up to get Large hybrid specilization? I did, and it was no big deal. I had to train rockets up to get rockets, lights up to get lights, and heavies up to train heavies...


And some people don't want to train up medium and small guns to use the big guns. Caldari have that versitility, other races don't.

It's funny to talk about Balance when you're clearly one of the best races in the game.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2006.11.25 21:10:00 - [4]
 

Even though its delayed damage its not lost damage,sure start the calc at the time it hits but once it does by what you said the turrets lose that advantage.

You can put cap boosters on a caldari ship just as you can put power relays on amarr or gellente ships,with a good raven setup you are usually using a cap intensive setup(ie XL shield booster etc...)so you need them,does that affect the tank?Yes in a bad way?Hell no.

About agility,they have this because they dont need the speed to get into optimal,size on battleships doesnt matter a whole lot but i guess on the smaller ships i could agree.

Training time?Uhh cant say only trained up turrets to t2 so i wouldnt know.

Also come kali you guys will get a sniper,one that can outsnipe anything else and will do instant damage which solves the instant damage problem.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.25 23:36:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
About agility,they have this because they dont need the speed to get into optimal,size on battleships doesnt matter a whole lot but i guess on the smaller ships i could agree.
Arguable for battleships too...we have the lowest DPS weapon in terms of our "long range" weapon (cruise)...this means we want to keep the other ships OUT of their optimal range as long as possible...hard to do with our ****ty agility. the agility nerf was a balance when missiles had no explosion radius of explosion velocity attributes. Now that they DO have those attributes, the agility nerf should be undone.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 06:35:00 - [6]
 

The turret replies so far are weak to say the least. Not meant as a flame, but they spew the same errored logic.

Agility, High mass, High sig radius, Low sensor resolution, Cant' fit cap recharge items unless we want our tank botched, can't use a ab or we sacrifice tank, can't use a mwd cause we multiply the highest sig radius in the game, and can't offset the cap penalty without sacrificing even more of our tank. Slow acceleration.

These arn't big problems BECAUSE WE USE MISSLES!

The mentioend drawbacks make Caldari ships take more damage. We move slower, are less agile, higher sig radius, that means turrets hit us better, turret ships start firing at us soomer, missles hit us harder, it's easier to scrable us, easier to web us.

Turret users compare missles on terms of them fitting them to their ships with their stats, and abilities. They forget to make their comparisions using Caldari ships and the actual stats that exist on them.

That is the point of this thread. Not the Caldari suck buff us, or Turrets are complaining too much. I am saying that turret users (which I am one of with Hybrids) use the right context before you complain.

One poster mentioned Inties to evaluate our speed and agility... It's these sort of blanket groupings that are so frustrating. I fit out a Domi, or a Mega I realize that if I got the instant damage and the rest of the missle stats ON the Domi or Mega then missles would be overpowered, but I am not using missles I'm using Hybrids. Evaluate missles on the ships they are intended to be used on then make comparisions, but only then.

Final note:

Delayed Damage is a huge draw-back. Only the stupidest of the stupidest in PvP stay around to get a full stream of missles hitting them and not warping out. Warping out is always an option when against a missle boat cause the majority of the damage is still on it's way you have the best chance to warp out. That's why I don't use missles in PvP.

If you are tackled and missles kill you then complain about the tackler. If I'm tackled and a turret user kills me I don't go screaming NERF MISSLES! I died cause it was a 2v1.

1V1 my kills in a Raven, Caracle, Cerbrus, take your pick, do not really exist. No pilot remains taking hits. They ALL warp out once they realize the damage comming and the damage in space will kill them. Vs a turret user once the battle goes their way you just Pray the rounds dont' go off or your dead cause of instant damage.

Dr Slice
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.26 07:16:00 - [7]
 

I agree Kelgen. Most people concentrate on a single aspect they think is over-powered and ignore everything else that balances it.

By the way, T2 missiles, many are saying these took a nice hit in the next patch so not too sure if people have a valid argument against Caldari these days; not to mention the Drake was nerfed.

Lilani Kuzma
Gallente
Black Skull Legion
Posted - 2006.11.26 07:21:00 - [8]
 

realy?? so u forgot about the fact that u can have torpedo specialization with one skil???? tell me about that smartguy ?

Dr Slice
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.26 07:27:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lilani Kuzma
realy?? so u forgot about the fact that u can have torpedo specialization with one skil???? tell me about that smartguy ?


Wrong, lets see what it takes to use T2 Torps, which Torpedo Spec skill is required to do so:

1. Missile Launcher Operation 5
2. Standard Missiles 3
3. Heavy Missiles 3
4. Torpedoes 5
5. Torpedo Specialization 1

Asfa
GalacTECH Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
Posted - 2006.11.26 07:37:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dr Slice
Originally by: Lilani Kuzma
realy?? so u forgot about the fact that u can have torpedo specialization with one skil???? tell me about that smartguy ?


Wrong, lets see what it takes to use T2 Torps, which Torpedo Spec skill is required to do so:

1. Missile Launcher Operation 5
2. Standard Missiles 3
3. Heavy Missiles 3
4. Torpedoes 5
5. Torpedo Specialization 1


Now lwt's compare this to the list for Large T2 blasters - a short range turret:

1. Motion prediction 5
2. Medium blaster specialization 4
3. Large hybrid turret 5
4. Gunnery 5
5. Small blaster specialization 4
6. Medium hybrid turret 5
7. Smalll hybrid turret 5


Notice a difference?

Dr Slice
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Asfa
Originally by: Dr Slice
Originally by: Lilani Kuzma
realy?? so u forgot about the fact that u can have torpedo specialization with one skil???? tell me about that smartguy ?


Wrong, lets see what it takes to use T2 Torps, which Torpedo Spec skill is required to do so:

1. Missile Launcher Operation 5
2. Standard Missiles 3
3. Heavy Missiles 3
4. Torpedoes 5
5. Torpedo Specialization 1


Now lwt's compare this to the list for Large T2 blasters - a short range turret:

1. Motion prediction 5
2. Medium blaster specialization 4
3. Large hybrid turret 5
4. Gunnery 5
5. Small blaster specialization 4
6. Medium hybrid turret 5
7. Smalll hybrid turret 5


Notice a difference?


Asfa, I'm not saying training for T2 Torps is as hard as training for T2 Large Blasters. I'm not making this comparison.

Secondly, I was pointing out the fact that it takes more than a single skill which the poster above seems to think is all thats necessary to unlock T2 Torp capability.

If you want to debate Missiles vs. Guns, I'm open for it. I'll start off by saying that Torps or any missile type for that matter cannot achieve Wrecking hits.

I think you will find in the end of the debate there are nice advantages and disadvantages for both weapon systems.

Mar Idoun
Caldari
R.E.D Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:19:00 - [12]
 

Somewhere along the lines missiles and drones went from secondary weapons to primary. We've been living with it for a while, so it's not going to change anytime soon.

and I think it's very true about the caldari description. Nerf caldari description tbh.

Arbenowskee
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Asfa
Originally by: Dr Slice
Originally by: Lilani Kuzma
realy?? so u forgot about the fact that u can have torpedo specialization with one skil???? tell me about that smartguy ?


Wrong, lets see what it takes to use T2 Torps, which Torpedo Spec skill is required to do so:

1. Missile Launcher Operation 5
2. Standard Missiles 3
3. Heavy Missiles 3
4. Torpedoes 5
5. Torpedo Specialization 1


Now lwt's compare this to the list for Large T2 blasters - a short range turret:

1. Motion prediction 5
2. Medium blaster specialization 4
3. Large hybrid turret 5
4. Gunnery 5
5. Small blaster specialization 4
6. Medium hybrid turret 5
7. Smalll hybrid turret 5


Notice a difference?


ever looked at ranks of the support skills?

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:34:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 26/11/2006 08:34:57
Quote:
Wrong, lets see what it takes to use T2 Torps, which Torpedo Spec skill is required to do so:


The training times are similar, but in training the smaller weapon systems you are more profecient. I don't know many people that are missle users that skipped training the smaller missles as completely as many think.

On paper yes. To train directly to T2 torps takes a bit less time than to train to T2 large rails (Notice how I didn't say Blasters and Rails.... That would be Cruise/Torps) But in practice players who train a weapon system and dedicate themsevels to it train for different classes.

I personally have more gunnery skill points than missles, but that is because I can also use a different weapon system in the same skill category. Lasers, and Adv. Weapon upgrades for my cap ships.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:36:00 - [15]
 

and with regards to my typos. forgive them. It's the first snow here and probably the last, so the cold makes the hands less responsive Very Happy

Juryrig
Posted - 2006.11.26 09:48:00 - [16]
 

You guys can cry that Caldari are the best race in the game, but for PvP I don't think their bonuses are all that great.
1) Half of their ships are missile boats, which I dislike due to the delayed damage. (Most things die before you hit it, meaning less kill points).
2) Most of their ships get bonuses to range, which I don't see as extremely helpful.
3) They don't do as good DPS as other races. Also, if you want to use the javalin ammo, you have to kill your tank.

I'm not arguing that caldari suck, just pointing out that they have weaknesses like any other race. I agree with Kelgen (except about the training time...missiles are extremely easy to use)


Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.26 11:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Asfa

Now lwt's compare this to the list for Large T2 blasters - a short range turret:

1. Motion prediction 5
2. Medium blaster specialization 4
3. Large hybrid turret 5
4. Gunnery 5
5. Small blaster specialization 4
6. Medium hybrid turret 5
7. Smalll hybrid turret 5


Notice a difference?


Well I guess you would also like to train for some of the other sizes of weapons right? So let's see what it takes to max out hybrids versus missiles all the way up to capital weapons..

For hybrids you need:
2x rank 8, 1x rank 7, 5x rank 5, 2x rank 3, 3x rank 2 and 1 rank 1 for a total of 14 skills with 61 ranks

For missiles you need:
2x rank 8, 1x rank 7, 5x rank 5, 2x rank 4, 5x rank 3, 4x rank 2 and 2 rank 1 for a total of 21 skills with 81 ranks

that's 20 ranks more for missiles, now tell me, do you notice a difference??

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2006.11.26 12:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

Well I guess you would also like to train for some of the other sizes of weapons right? So let's see what it takes to max out hybrids versus missiles all the way up to capital weapons..

For hybrids you need:
2x rank 8, 1x rank 7, 5x rank 5, 2x rank 3, 3x rank 2 and 1 rank 1 for a total of 14 skills with 61 ranks

For missiles you need:
2x rank 8, 1x rank 7, 5x rank 5, 2x rank 4, 5x rank 3, 4x rank 2 and 2 rank 1 for a total of 21 skills with 81 ranks

that's 20 ranks more for missiles, now tell me, do you notice a difference??


How on earth do you get that?

Hybrids
2x Rank 8, 1 x Rank 7, 4 x Rank 5, 1 x Rank 4, 3 x Rank 3, 4 x Rank 2, 2 x Rank 1.
A total of 16 skills and 66 Ranks.

Missiles
2x Rank 8, 1 x Rank 7, 4 x Rank 5, 2 x Rank 4, 3 x Rank 3, 4 x Rank 2, 2 x Rank 1.
A total of 17 skills and 70 Ranks.

One more rank 4 in other words...

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.26 14:31:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jacob Holland

How on earth do you get that?




Sry, I can see I missed a couple of skills for the hybridsEmbarassed
Hope this will clear things up, otherwise please tell me what I missed..

Hybrids:
capital Hybrid turret 7
controlled bursts 2
gunnery 1
large railgun specialization 8
large blaster specialization 8
Large Hybrid Turret 5
medium railgun specialization 5
medium blaster specialization 5
Med Hybrid turret 3
motion prediction 5
rapid firing 2
sharpshooter 2
small railgun specialization 3
small blaster specialization 3
Small hybrid turret 1
surgical strike 4
trajectory analysis 5

17 skills = 69 ranks

Missiles:
citadel torpedoes 7
cruise missile specialization 8
cruise missiles 5
fof missiles 3
guided missile precision 5
heavy missile specialization 5
heavy missiles 3
missile bombardment 2
missile launcher operation 1
missile projection 4
rapid launch 2
rocket specialization 3
rockets 1
standard missile specialization 3
standard missiles 2
target navigation prediction 2
torpedo specialization 8
torpedoes 4
warhead upgrades 5
Heavy assault Missiles 3
Heavy assault Missiles Specialization 5

21 skills = 81 ranks

So just 12 ranks in difference if I got them all this timeWink

Mjala
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:22:00 - [20]
 

@Lucian Corvinus
your just a noob, i dont know what to tell you Wink

you have forget heavy assault missiles rank 3 and heavy assault missile specialization rank 5

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 18:14:00 - [21]
 

A poster a ways back said Missles were intended as a secondary weapon system, and that is a thing which is wrong with Caldari.

The only Battleship that I remember being a rail boat was the Scropion back in the day. Then it got boosts to it's shields, then it got EW boosts. The scorp has changed many times.

The Raven.. Enough said.

The problem with missles is they walk a very fine line between overpowered and absolutely worthless. A long time ago they were Overpowered, Full damage to ALL targets, no explosion radius, no explosion velocity.

Then they became worthless, then they became somewhat balanced, and now there are more changes, and only time will tell what has happened. My personal take is the new changes were a bit severe, and we are going to see the only ships used in PvP by Caldari are Rokhs, and Turret smaller ships.

They nerfed the range on Torps... Not really sure why. I personally have Never once scored a kill using Torps in a fleet battle. I have killed a ship when they were dictor sphered, or tackled, but that's the game. If smart, Numbers win every time. Only by unbelievable smarts will fewer numbers beet a smart larger group.

T2 Torps are now not useful. I don't care if my torps are a bit faster, as it is still delayed damage.

I can speak only for myself, but I will only ever use the Rokh, Mega, or Domi in Pvp with these changes Battleship wise. I just can't see a role for Torp ships other than a gate camp with bubbles.


Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.26 19:35:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
What I mean is... Peole forget the drawbacks of Caldari ships, and missles combined. Take Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest.


In both the turret and missile formulas, if the target ship's sig radius is greater than the weapon's sig resolution/explosion radius, then the sig factor is set to 1. This means that a weapon with a 400m sig against a 420m target will do exactly the same damage against a 450m target (all other factors being equal).

Large guns have a sig radius of 400m. This means that in turret vs turret BS, the only battleships that can reduce the damage using their sig radius are:

Typhoon
Tempest
Armageddon

In all three cases, the sig radius difference can be made up by using a single target painter.

T1 cruise and torps both have a explosion radius of 400m, making them equivalent to turrets in this regard. T2 rage torps have a much larger explosion radius, but this is getting significantly shrunk in Revelations.

The larger sig radius of Caldari becomes more relevant in a mixed-class fight (e.g. cruiser vs BS), where the smaller ship needs to use its smaller sig radius to its advantage.

Quote:
We are also not valuable in Fleet battles. Only the Rokh, Eagle, are any good to have around.


Scorps and Blackbirds aren't useful in fleets?

Most Caldari rail platforms do need a boost, which would go a long way twards making Caldari more useful in fleets. However, no Caldari complaining that the Rook is a rail platform should ever again be allowed to complain about the uselessness of Caldari in fleets.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.26 20:41:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Grey Area on 26/11/2006 21:23:14

Originally by: Frezik
However, no Caldari complaining that the Rook is a rail platform should ever again be allowed to complain about the uselessness of Caldari in fleets.
OH, I think there's grounds for complaint there. We get given a new set of skills just under a year ago that require an investment of 22,784,000 skill points training (missiles). Now CCP admit that Caldari suck in fleet combat, but instead of addressing the REAL problem (which is the fact that MISSILES suck in fleet combat), they give us a ship type we haven't had to train for before, with 20,992,000 skill points of training required (Hybrids).

And yes, I know, the poor ol' Minmatar already suffer with this "split weapons" problem...but they have had four years to get used to the idea, we have had a couple of months.

I love that we're getting the Rokh...I'm happy to train for it...but I wish there was something that could be done to the combat system to make missiles of more use...

Edit - numbers corrected

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.26 21:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Frezik
However, no Caldari complaining that the Rook is a rail platform should ever again be allowed to complain about the uselessness of Caldari in fleets.
OH, I think there's grounds for complaint there. We get given a new set of skills just under a year ago that require an investment of 20,000,000 skill points or so training.


That's hyperbole. Using Lucian Corvinus' numbers above, we can remove 16 ranks by ignoring the blaster specialization skills. That leaves 69 - 16 = 53 ranks for a total of 256,000 * 53 = 13,568,000 points.

We can streamline this further. Rails don't have much falloff to begin with, so we can leave Trajectory Analysis out. Adv. Weapon Upgrades V is also not strictly needed except for some Minmatar ships (where the difference between levels IV and V can make the difference between wasting a slot on a fitting upgrade). That's 11 more ranks we can leave alone, for a new total of 53 - 11 = 42, or 256,000 * 42 = 10,752,000 points.

In any case, you don't need to train all of that to be effective in a rail BS. You'll still be excellent in a railboat with many of the support skills at level IV.

Quote:
Now CCP admit that Caldari suck in fleet combat, but instead of addressing the REAL problem (which is the fact that MISSILES suck in fleet combat).


The way to fix missiles in fleet combat is to change the way fleet combat works. Bring the fleets closer together, spreading them over the entire system rather than on a single gate, and mix up the ship types rather than having tons of BS. This will fix missiles as well as many other problems with large fleet combat.

Obviously, that's going to take some careful thought in changing the way large-scale Eve combat is done. However, I'd rather see CCP work on ways to bring about the above goals rather than create a stop-gap solution for missiles that may make them either uber or useless in other ways. Until then, have a Rokh . . .

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.26 21:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 26/11/2006 21:59:19
Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Pure and simple if I chose just 1 turret specilization to train for they are pretty much equal, but the support skills for turrets applies to all turrets, so you can learn more weapon systems faster. Missle support skills apply only to Missles. Too often people say It's not fair I am training Turrets and missles is easier. Turrets is not a weapon class. Hybrids are, Lasers are, and projectiles are.


Yea, except you save yourself the 4 million skillpoints to train another battleship 5 so you even get a missile/turret ship. I mean Caldari was always anoying because they hogged up two specialty ships and everyone else just gets turrets and HAS to train for Caldari to get missiles and EW, but that kind of evened out because Caldari had to train for another race.

Now they don't have to anymore, you get your missile ship, turret ship and EW ship all on one skill. Also all of those ships only use one weapon system at a time, so if you train straight for tech 2 missiles you get a ship that kicks ass with missiles only, and you have plenty of room to train for guns, if you're Minmatar your ships will not perform the best untill you finish both skills.

The main criticism I have of Caldari is the fact that they have two battleships that no equivalent exists too, because no other race gets useful EW or missile ships, so everyone who wants those things has to train Caldari, and now they have thir fleet ship which was the one thing that gave Caldari a reason to train other races, since they have the best ratting, the best EW and one of the best close range PvP ships already.

It's that kind of uber-versatility that makes other races like Amarr completly worthless by comparison. Why would someone train to a high battleship skill in a race where all 3 ships are very similar when with the same amount of time he can train for a race that has 3 radically different ones which perform just as good.

Tac Ginaz
Gallente
Liberation Army
Posted - 2006.11.26 22:02:00 - [26]
 

CCP should just re-assign all caldari ship hislots to be MISSILE bays.

Seriously.

All other races have 'their' weapon type. Amarr has lasers and bonuses to lasers in all their ships. Minmatar has projectiles and Gallente has Hybrids. Why dont Caldari have missiles then?

Seeing caldari ships you really have only 4 ships that are specifically missile boats: Kestrel, Caracal,Raven and Manticore.

Whereas all other races have their full complement of ships receiving the bonuses for their weapon types, caldari is royally screwed by being split between 2 completely different weapon specializations that brings them no overall benefit.


I would prefer CCP to make a ship implant that would convert hi slots from turret to missile and viceversa and let players choose their weapon loadouts. Caldari is screwed from this split weapon skill requirement.




Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 23:10:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
In all three cases, the sig radius difference can be made up by using a single target painter.


Which requires a mid slot sacrificing the tank even further. If you read the post before talking about all the potential mods we can fit to eliminate the inate drawbacks of our ships we sacrifice tanking ability. cover all our bases and we have no mid slots for tanking.

The other thing I hear is Caldari have an advantage because they have dedicated T1 specilization. Missle/ECM.

Look at Domi/Mega. Dedicated Drones/Rails.

Each race has a degree of specilization. A weapon type isn't a specilization it's a weapon type.

I forget what my next point was, but I have to get my butt off the computer and back to work before my employees think they can be on the computer for non-work related reasons Cool

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.26 23:15:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Which requires a mid slot sacrificing the tank even further.


Don't forget that you have low slot mods which increase shield resistance, shield HP and shield recharge rate.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 23:20:00 - [29]
 

Quote:
Don't forget that you have low slot mods which increase shield resistance, shield HP and shield recharge rate.


you are making it sound better than it is.

Damage controll mod = Good

Shield Hp = Power diagnostic and that's it. All races can use this.

Recharge rate = Power diagnostic again.

Shield power relays hurt a tank more if you are using boosters as the cap recharge is killed.

Power diags are a utility mod that is not too commonly used. Most Missle boats fit 3 Damage mods, and since Caldari have very few low slots that doesn't leave much room for anything else of signif. We don't use Cap Flux, cap relays, Shield power relays (active tanks can't), Shield Flux, etc.

Shield resistance is only the damage controll mod and nothing else.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.11.26 23:47:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Tac Ginaz
All other races have 'their' weapon type. Amarr has lasers and bonuses to lasers in all their ships. Minmatar has projectiles and Gallente has Hybrids. Why dont Caldari have missiles then?


Because such a change would completely remove the Caldari race from PvP unless fulfilling ecm roles?


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