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Imperil
United Warriors
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:04:00 - [1]
 

I believe ECM is still too "over-powered". E.g Your battlecruiser vs. 10 interceptors. Okay you think, you will maybe die, but there is a good chance you will take somebody with you. With current ECM system, you will get jammed, and unable to do anything - just die already..

Considering that to target the smaller ships it takes about 10 sec depending on target. So if you get jammed, you must wait 20 sec, then another 10 sec to target the attacker. You would most likely already be deep down in armor, and on the brink of destruction.

To maybe help the current system "either you win or you dont" with ECM, I think ECM should be changed in some way. Under here are 3 different changes I personnally think would help a lot.

1)
Reduce ECM cycle time to 10 sec instead of 20 sec.

2)
Make ECCM "battle" current ECM when enabled. If they have e.g 5 sec cycle time, then every 5 sec, the ECCM will try to remove the ECM and make you able to target/shoot. So if you get jammed for 20 sec, you will have 4 shots of removing the jam earlier then 20 sec.

3)
Make ECM only effect "weapons-lock", meaning your weapons will not fire due to your weapons not having a lock. But you can still target people, but you can not fire at them.

Anybody else got some ideas? At lease we can all agree that _something_ needs to be changed?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:10:00 - [2]
 


Option 1 actually boosts ecm, since the user gets a new chance to jam every 10 seconds instead of 20. Unless you are in a frigate, you wont have time to lock the target before the next cycle start. So what good is winning a cycle then?

I kind of like suggestion nr 3. When his cycle fails, you can immediately fire instead of waiting for your ship to lock.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:13:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: lofty29 on 19/11/2006 20:13:43
Why not have it with a 'cooldown' period. You can attempt to jam, but all ecm have a 30 second cooldown timer where you cant reactivate it?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: lofty29
Edited by: lofty29 on 19/11/2006 20:13:43
Why not have it with a 'cooldown' period. You can attempt to jam, but all ecm have a 30 second cooldown timer where you cant reactivate it?


I think cooldowns are a good idea. Thats actually one thing that worked pretty nice in WoW. You had powerful abilities like stun or sleep, but you couldn't just keep doing them forever. I would prefer cooldown to chance based.

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:19:00 - [5]
 

My personal favorite:

Split the sensor booster into two different modules, one for lock time and one for target range. Then change sensor damps to only affect lock time and make ECM only affect lock range.

Imperil
United Warriors
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:20:00 - [6]
 

What about 10 sec jam duration and 20 sec cycle on ECM? And maybe have skills to decrease cycle time to 15 sec?

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Imperil
What about 10 sec jam duration and 20 sec cycle on ECM? And maybe have skills to decrease cycle time to 15 sec?


I already suggested that and it became one of the "big ideas" in TomB's ECM Overhaul thread. Sadly, nothing ever came out of it :/

cytomatrix
Caldari
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: lofty29
Edited by: lofty29 on 19/11/2006 20:13:43
Why not have it with a 'cooldown' period. You can attempt to jam, but all ecm have a 30 second cooldown timer where you cant reactivate it?


I think cooldowns are a good idea. Thats actually one thing that worked pretty nice in WoW. You had powerful abilities like stun or sleep, but you couldn't just keep doing them forever. I would prefer cooldown to chance based.



But the characters that can do stun or sleep have superior offence. But in eve ECM ship's dmg output is crap. I dont know why ecm is still considered overpowered. Even before nerf I tried to jam eccm fitted vexor in my rook with multi hypnos. I have signal dispersion lvl4 and recon lvl4 with 7+ ecm strength i couldnt jam vexor not even once. Thats 1 med to counter 5 meds of rook. Now the strength is halved, eccm's strenth stays the same. I only use ecm on ecm dedicated ship so i dont know about other ships.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.19 20:29:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/11/2006 20:30:06
Originally by: cytomatrix
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: lofty29
Edited by: lofty29 on 19/11/2006 20:13:43
Why not have it with a 'cooldown' period. You can attempt to jam, but all ecm have a 30 second cooldown timer where you cant reactivate it?


I think cooldowns are a good idea. Thats actually one thing that worked pretty nice in WoW. You had powerful abilities like stun or sleep, but you couldn't just keep doing them forever. I would prefer cooldown to chance based.



But the characters that can do stun or sleep have superior offence. But in eve ECM ship's dmg output is crap. I dont know why ecm is still considered overpowered. Even before nerf I tried to jam eccm fitted vexor in my rook with multi hypnos. I have signal dispersion lvl4 and recon lvl4 with 7+ ecm strength i couldnt jam vexor not even once. Thats 1 med to counter 5 meds of rook. Now the strength is halved, eccm's strenth stays the same. I only use ecm on ecm dedicated ship so i dont know about other ships.


Its overpowered because the duration is so long, and you can get a new jam right after it. If ecm would only break lock for example (thats it, nothing more), and the target could lock again right away, and the source had a cooldown of like 60 seconds, then it wouldnt be overpowered. It wouldnt even be good. :)

And it would suck as crowd control in fleets, which is the big problem with nerfing it too much.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.19 21:54:00 - [10]
 

The big point of ECM is, that it lowers the enemy fleet dps. It disables instapop. If it is nerfed too much, fleet combat sufferes.
And the devs have been trying to make it better. So...

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.11.19 22:07:00 - [11]
 

Yep. Partial jam system. Not going over the entire argument again, but it'd work without increasing its power one bit (wouldn't affect 1v1's much, true, but 2v2 it changes the dynamic quite a bit - and flare ECM would change fleet battles for the better) and it would move away from the broken "shoot nothing" model.

dave1180
Posted - 2006.11.19 23:46:00 - [12]
 

why not just make the fitting requirements or cap usage so that only bigger ships or those with the corresponing bonus can actually use them?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.11.19 23:48:00 - [13]
 

Because the basic total jam system is broken, limiting them to the ships "meant" to have them does nothing to fix that.

velocoraptor
Art of War
Cult of War
Posted - 2006.11.20 02:56:00 - [14]
 

The idea of being able to lock but not fire is kind of good. Though what excactly is FIRE? Fire guns? Send drones to enemy? What about nos? Other e/w modules? Web?..... Maybe most importantly, SCRAM?

Imo the biggest problem with ecm (outside big fleet battles) is that it totally disables the enemy, not even allowing him to scram you. Heck, many ppl use ecm drones as a wcs (to break lock and be able to escape).

So maybe ecm should change and make victim not able to inflict any dmg (i.e. fire guns, or sedn drones if they have not already aggro), but still be able to use other modules on his enemy. Nos? I dunno, maybe yes, maybe noRolling Eyes

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.20 04:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: velocoraptor
The idea of being able to lock but not fire is kind of good. Though what excactly is FIRE? Fire guns? Send drones to enemy? What about nos? Other e/w modules? Web?..... Maybe most importantly, SCRAM?

Imo the biggest problem with ecm (outside big fleet battles) is that it totally disables the enemy, not even allowing him to scram you. Heck, many ppl use ecm drones as a wcs (to break lock and be able to escape).

So maybe ecm should change and make victim not able to inflict any dmg (i.e. fire guns, or sedn drones if they have not already aggro), but still be able to use other modules on his enemy. Nos? I dunno, maybe yes, maybe noRolling Eyes


<3

Imperil
United Warriors
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.20 10:22:00 - [16]
 

Nothing more annoying to get jammed and wait a minute to die. :(

Hayabusa Fury
Caldari
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.20 13:37:00 - [17]
 

The thing that sucks most of all in a game is any move that disables a player. Stun, sleep, ECM, snare....whatever name it goes by. It is game breaking and not much fun for the person paying to play. I don't care that I die, lose a ship, or any penalty that comes from it. But not being able to fight, move or do anything is just the most ridiculus thing I have ever heard of in a game.

Imagine the world cup if each team had a guy with "ECM" on his shirt. Where ever this guy ran on the field the defense just had to stop moving. It would be a pretty dumb game to watch or even play. That is how these type of moves work. Pretty dumb. Of course just straight DPS wars suck too. There needs to be different tactics and weapons used like ECM. Just totally being made un-able to do anything is silly. It makes me want to light my face on fire and put it out with an ice pick. Rolling Eyes

LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

Imagine the world cup if each team had a guy with "ECM" on his shirt. Where ever this guy ran on the field the defense just had to stop moving. It would be a pretty dumb game to watch or even play. That is how these type of moves work. Pretty dumb. Of course just straight DPS wars suck too. There needs to be different tactics and weapons used like ECM. Just totally being made un-able to do anything is silly. It makes me want to light my face on fire and put it out with an ice pick. Rolling Eyes


Following your ECM player (perhaps a new sweeper?) analogy let's look at how the current system actually works.

ECM player comes onto the field, and faces off alone against the other team's center. He uses all his abilities (modules) and successfully disables the other players ability to pass/shoot. The other guy has no choice but to run. However... the ECM player has no other skills. He can't take the ball away, he can't score on his own. He forces a stalemate. (ie - in game 1v1 an EW ship can lock down an opponent of similiar or larger class, but won't be able to kill him)

Now... let's say ECM plays as part of team. He has a choice - lock down one player's ability to pass/shoot/receive the ball, which he can do with 90% certainty. Or he can attempt to befuddle multiple players - each with 20% chance. Likely he'll be able to mess with 1-2 of the other team's players - forcing the other team to rethink their strategy, pass, and maybe headbutt the guy for talking about their mother.

Most of the anti-ECM camp seems to think that a rook can fly in and jam 5 ships forever. This is simply not true. This does occasionally happen. But for every time this happens there are another 20 situations wherein you only jam 2-3 ships, and even a few times where you fly in, activate your enormous ECM arsenal and fail on everything... you then proceed to watch your paper airplane of a ship get toasted.

ECM ships are not solopwn-mobiles. They are useful as a tactical weapon in gangs. They are very counterable - make them primary (someone will get a lock), bring more friends, bring sensor dampeners, bring drones, bring FoF missiles, fit ECCM (yes, 1v1 they are less than great - if a whole fleet has them you will drastically lessen the effectiveness of enemy ECM).

The current changes are okay - but the dedicated ECM ships need a slightly greater buff. Ideally, with no lowslot modules they'd be weaker than they are now, but adding one module would make them slightly more powerful than they are on Tranq. Done. That keeps the strengths similiar and removes some of their very limited ability to tank.

Think over time people - that's the point of ECM - it lessens damage OVER TIME.


DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.20 17:32:00 - [19]
 

imo the new ecm system after kali will be fine. dedicated ecm ships should be able to jam multiple targets but if they got shot at they don't last too long. also they won't be fitting stabs or they'll be next to useless

DE



LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2006.11.20 20:30:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: LoKesh on 20/11/2006 20:33:03
I agree to a point.

The problem is several fold
1) Bonuses to the BB and Scorp are now equal - changing the character of the BB and making it as strong as the Scorp in jamming. Meh - just person grudge

2) Bonuses on Scorp and Rook are not high enough. Filling the two low slots with ECM boosters on the Rook does not bring it up to the current strength it has on tranquility. A Scorp can do it with 2 or 3. Leaving a low slot for... something.

Why is this bad? Well - currently in a Scorp or Rook you will miss a jam when you go up against multiple targets. As ECM is your best defense, you will now need the low slot modules to offset the nerf, leaving no tank what-so-ever. The standard setup now has a plate/hardner/repper in the low slots - just to try to offset the massive amounts of incoming damage (ECM ships are primary). The changes on Sisi really amount to a nerf to the defense of the ship. Even with the 50% boost in hitpoints, I think we're going to see alot of dead ECM ships.

(I leave rigs out of the discussion because rigs will be available to match any setup - making everything more powerful and versatile, not just ECM)

This is almost habit now... We have alot of threads regarding the ECM changes in Kali. A quick response from the devs just to say, "We intended it to be this way," or "We think it might be to much of a nerf," or "We're observing it and may adjust the balancing in the future" would be nice.


 

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