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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:11:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 11:11:31
Originally by: Tissa
Not sure I agree with you there, most of the "0mG!1 i got GREAFED" whines are newbies who get in a BS as fast as possible then wonder why they are sitting in a pod 0.4 seconds after jumping into a 0.4.
But there are a few people who deliberately target one player or small corp and make their lives a misery in an attempt to make them quit the game.
I prefer to call these people playground bullies rather than greafers.
You get bullies everywhere and the same rule applies in eve as when you were at school, go run and tell teacher* or a responsible adult**.

Wel i said "little to none", im sure theres a bunch through out eve who kill you in the hopes of ruining your day. But by the end of the day griefers are just a term random clueless carebears use to describe anyone who doesnt let them mine their precious ore in peace.

Hell, these carebears are the griefers for spamming our pretty forum with their pointless rabble Razz

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:21:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Hell, these carebears are the griefers for spamming our pretty forum with their pointless rabble Razz
QFT

MMXMMX
Caldari
Bendebeukers
Green Rhino
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:22:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: MMXMMX on 17/11/2006 11:24:26
Originally by: Polinus
I think you all dont get the poitn. That is not a simple whine. Its a critiscism of how EVE dois not contemplate a reasonable time frame on the life of a character. When you are over 2 weeks old. no lvl 1 mission will give you any fun. And you are still too far form lvl 2 missions ( on the rythim I was going it would take 3 months to reach level 2 missions). So no chalange at one point... so you try to find something more fun to do. But there is no.. " a bit more difficult" place to have fun. There is nothing fun in 0.5 and above.. nothing.. until i can unloack level 2 agents.. and I dont want to pay just do do NOT FUN things!!


EVE must insert contents for this level of paying. Cause that is one of reaosn so many accounts are short lived.


Yes .

The first 2 months i have don transport missions .
While i was doing that i got all leunring books to level 5 after that i dit the advanced leurning books to 4 .

After the 8 weeks i went to do level 2 fighter missions with olmost no fighting skilbooks .

So that made me leurn the fighting skils a little.
The missions where showing me what kind of skils i needed to survive .

After that i moved on to level 3 missions .
Then i joint a nice corp and went to 0.0 and that was realy hard but also fun .

Only shooting a pos or camping a gate 4 hours is realy boring :) O yes and hopping from belt to belt and finding no rats is boring to :)
But defanding the space u live in and the station u dock in is fun and going on hunting parties is olso fun .

On the moment i do level 4 missions to get some isk to bild some new PVP ships .

It wil take u some time this is realy a long time based game .
I lost 4 bil isk in 0.9 space so dont feel so bad .

Good luck in finding your way .

Tissa
Minmatar
Mnemonic Enterprises
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:23:00 - [154]
 

What would help the forums a lot is when you get to the map part on the tutorial a big message flashes up on screen saying
Quote:
0.4 and lower. Here be be pirates! You will be killed if you come in here - the ore and rats just ain't worth it. AVOID.

The tutorial is good for explaining how to fly your ship but offers up absolutely no practical advice as how to not get it blown up. A "tips" eve mail from ccp to all new characters would help the game a hellava lot me thinks.

Gavin Kineli
Cross Roads
Ouroboros Cross Combine
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:31:00 - [155]
 

I think a lot of you are missing the point.

Most people replying here have played the game a while, and we know how it works. This guy has an 800k SP character. Does he know the ins and outs of the game? How to slip past gate campers? Probably not.

So rather than be critical and call him a whiner, help this guy out.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:34:00 - [156]
 

This really comes back to "the tutorial doesn't help enough".

I can't help but think that what we need is a "'verse tutorial", in which the narrator switches away from Aura's calming voice to that of a gruff middle-aged guy who cynically explains how it is in the EVE universe.

Maybe give the player agent like conversation options with them that allow them to ask the obvious questions and hear the even more cynical reply. Example:

"This here stargate looks just like any other, but don't let it fool you. That CONCORD warning that pops up understates what lies on the other side. CONCORD don't just not guarantee your protection, they pretty much abandon you. Sentry guns at the gates, at the stations and that's it and don't think they'll save you. Any pirate with half a brain can avoid the sentries long enough to give you a fun clone-ride home. Security ratings do not scale linearly - 1.0 to 0.5 and you're safe - mostly - 0.4 to 0.0 and your open game for anyone, anywhere and they don't care what you're flying. Only got that rookie junker? Great - they don't have to spend so much time blowing it up."

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:50:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Gavin Kineli
stuff

Originally by: James Duar
stuff

Isn't it funny though how some people learn and adapt, while others come to the forum and whine?

Santa Anna
Caldari
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:55:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Polinus
But if i dont find frigate flying fun? I am condeemed to several months of no fun gaming? If there were Cruiser class targets in 0.5 and above I would stay there. If at least I could reach missions where i could face cruiser.. .. but that would take a loong time


It takes less than a week in a destroyer to reach level 2 missions. Do missions for the best available agent, check every couple missions. You can do most level 2 missions with little or no trouble in a destroyer as well. If you can't get to level 2's using a cruiser (and you're actually trying) you're doing something wrong.

Quote:
And my 800k SP character is all on combat skills, cruiser V 4 gunnery 5 medium guns 4 maxed armor skills. So it should be possible to fly a cruiser reasonably.


Either you don't know what these skills are or you're lying.
I'm assuming you're saying you have your racial cruiser trained to 4, gunnery to 5, medium guns to 4, hull upgrades to 5, and repair systems to 5, with 800k skill points.

Cruiser is a rank 5 skill, so level 4 would cost you about 225000 leaving you 575000 skill points.
Gunnery is a rank 1 skill so level 5 would cost you 256000 skill points, leaving you 319,000.
Medium guns is a rank 3 skill, which at level 4 set you back around 135,000 skill points, leaving 184,000 skill points. (also requires some other stuff but we'll leave that alone atm)
Hull upgrades is a rank 2 skill, which at level 5 costs 512,000 skill points leaving you with -328,000.
Repair systems is a rank 1 skill, which at level 5 would cost you 256,000 and set you back to -584,000.

Either you don't know which skills you need to have "maxed armor skills" or you're trolling. Even if you have these skills (and really had twice the skill points you claimed to have), you don't seem to have any ewar skills, any targetting skills, any fitting skills, any navigation skills, or any ancillary weapon/weapon upgrade skills. A (true) 100k skill point player could pretty easily destroy your cruiser in a starter frig away from sentry fire because you can't jam or nos them while that 100k player can scram and nos you.

Quote:
And what is teh difference on0.4 and 0.1? Why not make the 0.4 sentries much more powerfull?


Rats and ore in lower security systems is much juicier. The lower you go, the less common the (publicly accessible) stations become and the more poorly defended they are. You aren't really safe in a 1.0 system, though as a competent gank squad would have you in your pod before concord came to your aid.

There are also fewer player pirates in 0.1 systems because the players there can generally fight back and/or escape competently.

BTW, I very much doubt a coordinated fleet of HACs and faction BS are in system to grief you. In my experience, player pirates are pretty poorly organized and likely wouldn't deploy a force of several billion isk worth of ships in order to blow up your 38M isk worth of 0.4 rat loot. Perhaps more is going on than you know. Did you perhaps try discussing the situation with your captors?

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:10:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
stuff

Originally by: James Duar
stuff

Isn't it funny though how some people learn and adapt, while others come to the forum and whine?

I don't get it is this a veiled insult, and if so, at whom?

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:19:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 12:20:50
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
Most people replying here have played the game a while, and we know how it works. This guy has an 800k SP character. Does he know the ins and outs of the game? How to slip past gate campers? Probably not.

Of course he doesnt, which is why people usually tell new players to find a corporation with older members. And no, they im talking about some PVP corp with a 10 mill SP req. Theres plenty of empire corps who recruit and help new players with advice.

I faced the same problem when i started with eve, i started with a bunch of friends from a diffrent game and we started a corp together. The result? Well my loss was a uninsured battleship in low because we had no clue what instas or warp core stabs were. ugh

Did we whine on the forums about the game being too hard and pirates being griefers? No, we adapted.

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
stuff

Originally by: James Duar
stuff

Isn't it funny though how some people learn and adapt, while others come to the forum and whine?

I don't get it is this a veiled insult, and if so, at whom?

Its not really an insult, its an observation. Some people adapt to problem they face, other people try and get someone else to remove the problem for them.

Only one type of these players has what it takes to survive in eve, the other type usually ends up leaving eventually.

Valan
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:21:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Gavin Kineli
I think a lot of you are missing the point.

Most people replying here have played the game a while, and we know how it works. This guy has an 800k SP character. Does he know the ins and outs of the game? How to slip past gate campers? Probably not.

So rather than be critical and call him a whiner, help this guy out.


Yes but istead of saying I don't really know what I'm doing and I got podded. He's come along saying you're all wrong and the game is crap because I got podded.

Slight difference in attitude. I've seen new guys have similar issues. I've sent them an eve-mail giving advice and enough isk to replace their ship.

Santa Anna
Caldari
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:30:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
I think a lot of you are missing the point.

Most people replying here have played the game a while, and we know how it works. This guy has an 800k SP character. Does he know the ins and outs of the game? How to slip past gate campers? Probably not.

So rather than be critical and call him a whiner, help this guy out.


Yes but istead of saying I don't really know what I'm doing and I got podded. He's come along saying you're all wrong and the game is crap because I got podded.

Slight difference in attitude. I've seen new guys have similar issues. I've sent them an eve-mail giving advice and enough isk to replace their ship.


This guy is a 1337 dev with uber minesweeper skillz and doesn't need your help.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:39:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
stuff

Originally by: James Duar
stuff

Isn't it funny though how some people learn and adapt, while others come to the forum and whine?

I don't get it is this a veiled insult, and if so, at whom?

Its not really an insult, its an observation. Some people adapt to problem they face, other people try and get someone else to remove the problem for them.

Only one type of these players has what it takes to survive in eve, the other type usually ends up leaving eventually.

I get that, but I think my point remains valid - there is an appalling scarcity of information if you're a new player regarding a lot of game mechanics. It certainly won't stop people who want to complain from complaining, but it would help a lot of people. If we could at least stress how dangerous low-sec is (i.e. it does not linearly become more dangerous) then it'd just be a net positive - it was certainly something I didn't know, though I did the sensible thing and somehow through luck saved my pod and scurried back to Empire to ask more questions.

Maestro Ulv
Phaze-9
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:47:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Polinus
Developer


I felt sorry for you until that point.

Gotta wonder why you dont find flying frigates fun? IMO frigates are the best way to play EVE, the speed, rapid target change, transversal. The skills needed to fly one well will always make your next cruiser skills far far better plus you get experience fighting instead of "sit there, tank, fire"

If i was ever to get stuck with 38 mill in the bank and a 800k sp character, id pop outside and get podded just for the fast travel. Providing of course you bothered to update your clone.

WeirdNoise
Caldari
tagueuletoi
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:54:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Polinus
I think you all dont get the poitn. That is not a simple whine. Its a critiscism of how EVE dois not contemplate a reasonable time frame on the life of a character. When you are over 2 weeks old. no lvl 1 mission will give you any fun. And you are still too far form lvl 2 missions ( on the rythim I was going it would take 3 months to reach level 2 missions). So no chalange at one point... so you try to find something more fun to do. But there is no.. " a bit more difficult" place to have fun. There is nothing fun in 0.5 and above.. nothing.. until i can unloack level 2 agents.. and I dont want to pay just do do NOT FUN things!!


EVE must insert contents for this level of paying. Cause that is one of reaosn so many accounts are short lived.



One word : connections. The connections skill will bring you lvl 2 missions on a platter. Raise that to lvl2 and you gain about 0.70 standing if your current standing is below 1.
The formula is ModifiedStanding = BaseStanding + 4% of (10 - BaseStanding), if BaseStanding is more than zero.
That means that at a standing of 0.1 you get nearly 0.4 gain by the first level of connection skill, whereas at a standing of 5 you would get only 0.2 gain by that same lvl 1 of connections skill.

The skill is easy and fast to learn. Lvl 3 connections goes fast and gives you over 1 standing point. You're nearer from unlocking lvl 3's than you thought you were from lvl 2's.

As for your story, what you have experienced is not the rule in low sec. You've fallen on an especially hard place at a hard time. Wasting a week for a gate camp is nasty, I agree. I'd suggest leaving all your stuff behind, frankly. You say belt rats are uninteresting in empire, but they can be profitable, thanks to the odd drop of valuable items. At least more profitable than lvl 1 or even lvl 2 missions, and funnier too.

On an extreme solution you could escrow/sell your stuff which is blocked in the system. Not very smart but would avoid you being nude in empire. As long as you can get and equip a combat frig (not necessarily an expensive one) you can make a million quickly on 0.5 rats, trust me, check market prices on named stuff.
Then run those lvl2 missions... and if it's not fun go to low sec, but in as cheap a fitting as practicable...

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.17 13:12:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
stuff

Originally by: James Duar
stuff

Isn't it funny though how some people learn and adapt, while others come to the forum and whine?

I don't get it is this a veiled insult, and if so, at whom?

Its not really an insult, its an observation. Some people adapt to problem they face, other people try and get someone else to remove the problem for them.

Only one type of these players has what it takes to survive in eve, the other type usually ends up leaving eventually.

I get that, but I think my point remains valid - there is an appalling scarcity of information if you're a new player regarding a lot of game mechanics. It certainly won't stop people who want to complain from complaining, but it would help a lot of people. If we could at least stress how dangerous low-sec is (i.e. it does not linearly become more dangerous) then it'd just be a net positive - it was certainly something I didn't know, though I did the sensible thing and somehow through luck saved my pod and scurried back to Empire to ask more questions.
He was correct that it was simply an observation, though given my typical posting style it's not hard to imagine someone misconstruing it Wink.

The game could certainly be more forthcoming with information, but it is exposure to the harshness of the world that is the best lesson. Not to mention the fact that your mileage will vary. When I was originally on my 14 day trial months before I started playing properly, I earned my money by making runs into 0.0 and mining high-end ore and ferrying it back to empire in my Imicus. Never had a problem, and had a profitable 2 weeks out of it. I tried to do the same thing again when I restarted the game, but I just kept getting wtfpwned, by gatecamps in 0.0 and by pirates in 0.4. Then I was recruited into a corp, which operated in and around a different area of lowsec, and was on good terms with the pirates in that area, so I was able to move around that lowsec in complete safety.
There's a complete world out there. That's very difficult to explain to people who haven't seen it for themselves, and who don't 'get' Eve yet.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.17 13:21:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: James Duar
I get that, but I think my point remains valid - there is an appalling scarcity of information if you're a new player regarding a lot of game mechanics. It certainly won't stop people who want to complain from complaining, but it would help a lot of people.

Well i agree with you to a certain extend. Making the tutorial bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger isnt going to fix it though. Theres only so much people can learn from the tutorial, the rest they have to figure out themselves or learn from other players.

Originally by: James Duar
If we could at least stress how dangerous low-sec is (i.e. it does not linearly become more dangerous) then it'd just be a net positive - it was certainly something I didn't know, though I did the sensible thing and somehow through luck saved my pod and scurried back to Empire to ask more questions.

'Dangerous' is arbitrary, low sec is only as dangerous as you make it. On top of that only the travel route systems and busy low sec systems are dangerous as they attract pirates, those empty dead end systems are safer then 1.0 systems themselves.

When you try to jump into low sec you get a warning about it being dangerous, if people donít read it, ignore it or just plain old donít get it then the game cant be blamed for that.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.17 13:25:00 - [168]
 

I get that we can't just make the tutorial longer and longer and longer, but I think we could easily have a very concise "this is the universe" tutorial which would answer a bunch of FAQs very easily.

Valan
Posted - 2006.11.17 13:30:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Valan on 17/11/2006 13:30:55
You can offer all the help in the world but some people just don't get it. A work mate of mine played for a while but he was useless. We repeatedly told him what not to do and he would still get popped on a weekly basis making the same mistake.

Now you could say he was stupid but he's one of the smartest blokes I've met. There is just no helping some people, you have to be crap at something for some its EVE. You have to draw the tutorial line somewhere you cna't hold their hand all the way through.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.17 13:31:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Valan
You can offer all the help in the world but some people just don't get it. A work mate of mine played for a while but he was useless. We repeatedly told him what not to do and he would still get popped on a weekly basis making the same mistake.

Hehe reminds of a guy who used to be in my class. He was a nice guy but DAMN did he suck at eve Razz

Detavi Kade
Posted - 2006.11.17 14:56:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Valan
Edited by: Valan on 17/11/2006 13:30:55
You can offer all the help in the world but some people just don't get it. A work mate of mine played for a while but he was useless. We repeatedly told him what not to do and he would still get popped on a weekly basis making the same mistake.

Now you could say he was stupid but he's one of the smartest blokes I've met. There is just no helping some people, you have to be crap at something for some its EVE. You have to draw the tutorial line somewhere you cna't hold their hand all the way through.


Exactly. If you stop the tutorial at arbitrary point N, someone will complain that they got stuck at N+1 and the tutorial didn't cover that.

Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.17 15:23:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Ky'var Traven
quit trying to pretend that killing newbies is anything but griefing.

Ok, I read this word so often along with much discussion of what is or isnt 'griefing', and I'm at a loss to understand the point of that discussion.

An action in Eve is either:
a. Allowed by CCP
b. Not allowed by CCP

(Yes, I know the GMs can be ambiguous about some things, I'm ignoring that for the purposes of this discussion)

IMO, the word 'griefing' should be reserved for those things that belong in category B, and as such it matters not what the players' definition of it is

If we're trying to mould a definition around things in category A, what is the point? Trying to determine what is griefing and what isn't is only useful if 'griefing' itself is not allowed. Otherwise, you may as well just use 'being an arse'.

In light of this: please, those of you who argue about what constitutes 'griefing', what exactly are you trying to acheive by defining it?

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.17 23:47:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Ky'var Traven
Edited by: Ky''var Traven on 17/11/2006 05:48:53
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
You know, destroying another player in combat and cracking their pod is an exhiliarating experience. You should try it.


Obviously you see no difference between a target that can actually shoot back with some chance as opposed to one that has no chance of damaging you, so you're the kind of person who would hunt rabbits with an assault rifle I guess.


Actually. I attack any target I feel like.

Real-life comparisons are irrelevant. This is a game.

If some guy in a hauler can't fire back, I don't really care. He went into a dangerous area of space without scouting, where it clearly says that he can be attacked. If he went there hoping that anyone without equal fighting capability will just "let him slide" because "that would be unfair". Then that guy is simply stupid. And playing the wrong game (I suggest the other three-lettered acronym).

Quote:

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
I like EVE because I can do what the heck I want, and I love it when the mail comes from some whiner about how what I'm doing is "wrong".


Of course the fact that you hunted down a newbie in your nice shiny BS just so you could brag about how you educated them in the game by killing them repeatedly, engage in gratuitous self gratification much?



Sometimes the target is a newbie, sometimes it isn't. And what ship I'm in at the time changes. I still attack people who are "daring" enough to venture into space where non-consensual PvP occur all the time.

Quote:

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
EVE is a free game.


Actually, looking at the charges on my credit card it's not free, it is a sandbox game which is why I like it, but quit trying to pretend that killing newbies is anything but griefing.



FREE, as in "you can do what you want". Smartass.

Griefing is just a term that people who prefer WoW-handholding gameplay coined to try and make a case for themselves.

Quote:

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Quit laughing, smell the coffee.


How can I help but laugh when people come up with such pathetic excuses to try and justify acting like asshats?

Edit: Grr stupid forums, posted with the wrong character....


It's nothing personal.
If you want a game where you won't ever be attacked by a superior foe, don't play EVE.

Simple, huh?

Lunadi
Minmatar
Solar Trade
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:13:00 - [174]
 

To bring balance to the universe of gankers & carebears I propose the following solution.

Let CCP introduce random concord gatecamp in low sec / 0.0 shooting at everything that has sec standing below 0, as well as random concord belt runs with the same purpose. I would just love to see all those pirats whining on the forums ;-)


Patric Murphy
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.18 02:02:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Patric Murphy on 18/11/2006 16:01:48
I dont have time to read through 6 pages of replies right now, so sorry if this has been said already.

Your biggest problem right now is that you are !. talking about eve being too hard for new palyers, and 2. flying BC's with 800K skill points. If you dont want to struggle at every turn, make sure you traing the suporting skills you need rather than just getting into the biggest ship you can ASAP. The fact that you claim to fly BC's and had to make two warps to get across a system while your oppent obviously could make it in one (becouse he beat you to the other side) shows me that your support skills are severly under developed.

stop flying crusers, go back to frigs and learn the skills and tactics needed to survive.

Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.18 02:12:00 - [176]
 

Take it in stride too...

What is fun about this game is that death is actually a fairly big risk. I havent been playing long, but I have gotten killed a bunch of times. I laugh everytime because its fun


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