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Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.27 00:02:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Laboratus on 27/11/2006 00:02:36
Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: SN3263827
With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible.

People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other.


Blah. Warp to 0km is a nice little trick..."Look Mr Carebear, it's perfectly safe, us nasty pirates can't shoot you...come on in"

Of course, no one mentions what's going to happen on the OTHER side of the gate.



And in the middle of their warp, the bubble you'd been anchoring for the past minute or so activates, and they're sucked out of warp 50km from the gate!!! Brilliant!!


Um, bubbles only work if they are up before the warp starts. Thats why for example dictors can warp and launch a bubble...

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.29 19:01:00 - [212]
 

Just thought I'd resurrect this one...lots of people in the help chat saying "Why can't I target past 30km any more"? Also posts on the mission forum about how impossible it's going to be to run missions in low sec...

Sae Marr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
Posted - 2006.11.29 19:08:00 - [213]
 

Best change ever. Please don't change a thing Very Happy

Exogene
Posted - 2006.11.29 22:12:00 - [214]
 

Looks like most people here never heard of a sensor booster before...It is a long overdue change, gj CCP

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:16:00 - [215]
 

Stop with the smug "Sensor booster" answer already. My regulr fitout HAS a sensor booster...if I fit a second, I will pay a stacking penalty, so it will NOT counteract the nerf.

CCP, the penalty is overdone...and now that the changes are on Tranquility I think more people will start to comment on it.

Change it to 75% penalty, but ONLY for every WCS fitted AFTER the first.

That means two stabs would be as badlt nerfed as currently, three would be even worse, but fitting ONE would be an option. It was not ONE stab that was the problem, it was MULTIPLE stabs.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:20:00 - [216]
 

What part of "not on combat ships" don't you understand?

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:24:00 - [217]
 

*sigh*

"Not on combat ships"
"Fit to fight OR to run"

Keep trotting out your little cliches boys, and don't EVER stop for a second to wonder what might happen to the the actual GAME you play.

And why don't you have to "Fit to fight OR to scramble"?

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:26:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Mission running setup is not good for PVP.


You mean "Mission-running setup that can pwn all Level 4s" is not good for PvP.

Quote:
PVP setup is not good for mission running.


A PvP setup works swell for most level 4 missions. Rogue drones, for example, do similar types of damage as players, so a setup that can handle Infiltrated Outposts is also good for PvP. You're just used to being able to solo all of the level 4s. Now you need help for the more difficult ones. That's good.

Quote:
I just won't run missions in low sec any more.


Boo frickin' hoo.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:28:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Just thought I'd resurrect this one...lots of people in the help chat saying "Why can't I target past 30km any more"? Also posts on the mission forum about how impossible it's going to be to run missions in low sec...


I run them all the time in low sec, and have even been jumped by pirates in my mission deadaspace. I have yet to be popped by any of them, and I don't use WCS at all. Quit acting like a baby.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:31:00 - [220]
 

Hehe. Two or three posts into the resurrection of the thread, and we're already into the "Let's hurl insults at the OP" mode. Fire away. Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game...ok, so you need TWO points of tackling...now what was it you said again...oh yeah...Boo Fricking Hoo.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:33:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
*sigh*

"Not on combat ships"
"Fit to fight OR to run"

Keep trotting out your little cliches boys, and don't EVER stop for a second to wonder what might happen to the the actual GAME you play.

And why don't you have to "Fit to fight OR to scramble"?

Yeah, I thought long and hard about it. That game is today, and I'm happy.

"Fit to fight or scramble" is like saying "Breathe or live". Without one, the other is meaningless.

Fitting to fight or run is fine. If you don't want to fight, you don't. You run like a little girl (which is fine if you are going to lose). What is not fine is ships set up for combat be able to engage, and then leave at will with impugnity if things look even at little dodgy.

One stab and five have the same effect on PvP: you can leave when scrambled unless the opposition fits specifically to counter your stabbage (not to mention that midslots are generally far more scarce in PvP than lowslots).

If you want to run, do it before engaging. You should not be able to try your luck on the off-chance that you should win, and then run if it goes ****-up.

I also know you are king-whinetard about missioning, and as such, I'd like to share a secret with you. Ctrl-F11. This (shock horror) tells you when people are coming, so you never get scrambled in the first place!

Genius!

Olev
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:41:00 - [222]
 

hmmm..intresting..finally i can get a hold of those pesky pirates who use stabs, hell i've even seen a crow with stabz,pathetic? indeed..
lets see..fill up al low slots with stavz,chek..some crap in mids and i pu what ever guns i can fit in high..
sounds fun eh? well..now ppl have to use their heads..
and for us guys,meaning more than the smallest?;)

i love this change..when did i fit stabz on a ship last time..ohh! it whas when i moved my brand new machariel from Torrinos to VFK,but then i was travlel fited and not intrested in a fight,and when i got up there,combat setup and out and play:) so grow some balls and take chanses..
its fun..maybe u will even start to like it,
if u get ****ed,start pvp and see that its fun, i find mission as much fun as watching paint drie..but thats me...P

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:45:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/11/2006 23:45:49
Originally by: Grey Area
Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game...


No other modules has a stacking penalty like that. It may not be possible without significant development effort, effort that could be utilized on improving PvP combat.

There's your reason. Happy now?


Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:56:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/11/2006 23:45:49
Originally by: Grey Area
Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game...


No other modules has a stacking penalty like that. It may not be possible without significant development effort, effort that could be utilized on improving PvP combat.

There's your reason. Happy now?




There are plenty of "unique" penalties in the game...cloaks that affect lock even when offline, not being able to fit more than one MWD, not being able to activate a cloak if a second cloak is fitted...one more wouldn't hurt. So no, it's not a reason, it's an excuse not to have to look at it too long.

The thing that makes me laugh is that you can't see that the SINGLE warp core stab would get you MORE kills, not less...lots of people have been quite clear in this thread that it's not enough to save you...but it IS enough to give a (false?) sense of security. Being able to fit ONE would encourage the odd carebear to put his head over the pa****t...without it, we'll stay in empire.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.29 23:57:00 - [225]
 

Oh god, I love the "stabs get you more kills" argument.

Anyway, I'm out for now. I decided to go screw for virginity.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.30 00:01:00 - [226]
 

I'm out too. It is, after all, only my opinion that less carebears will venture into 0.4...only time will tell.

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.30 01:41:00 - [227]
 

This is a game about RISK and PVP. If you do not want these things, and do not like the way the game is headed, stop playing. You're basicly argueing against the foundations of EVE, which is why it's got where it is today. You will not win this battle I'm afraid.

So, either adapt and keep playing, or leave. There's no other if's and but's.

- Grez

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.30 01:54:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: Soporo on 30/11/2006 02:37:18

WT0 increased the PERCEPTION that Low Sec would be a tad safer.
Pirates shriek in dismay.

WCS nerf increased the PERCEPTION that Low Sec would be much worse for many missioners.
Cares/Missioners shriek in dismay.

Both have some points, both are subjective, therefore a COMPROMISE would seem in order.CCP mighta done just that.
You ask me, they did a better job of complementing these two changes than some I can mention, however I think the Op has a point particularly in light of the multiple Dev comments about populating Low Sec.

1 (ONE) WCS allowed/unnerfed on combat ships wouldnt hurt a damn thing, and you would see more faction fitted BS and missioners and other targets in Low Sec.

The missioner gives up a slot and gets a little peace of mind, and with a scram slotted you get the target.
Whats the big deal.

Hell they are/were talking about trying to figure out how to Dictor Low Sec without making it even more of a ghost town.
If they DO allow Low Sec dictors, even with harsh sec status penalties etc (pfft, alts) it would be the biggest backdoor/left field Pirate Nerf ever, worse than Gate Guns were. Just my opinion, but if you think reaaaal hard, you will see why...

Quote:
This is a game about RISK and PVP


EVE socalled PvP is defined everywhere else as PK'ing, and various size Ganking, industry-wise anyway.
Just a pet-peeve.

Karandor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.30 01:58:00 - [229]
 

My corp is anti-pirate and we LOVE this change. We've lost so many raven kills because of 4+ stabs it isn't funny.

Max Warg
Caldari
Chosen Path
Posted - 2006.11.30 04:42:00 - [230]
 

I personely belive this is a heavy handed nerf. In the whole scheam of things the scrambler VS stabs thing is good. But now that mounting even just one stab is to make your ship uessless except for crago running is stupid. Pray often out numbered by gankers should have allways been easy to over come the one or two stabs that most would run.

Stabs should remain a usefull and viable mod. A smaller penalty of like 20% would stack up very quickly for a pilot that runs more ethen one, 2 would be painfull to say the least, 4 even worse for a vialbe setup. It would be a strait 20% of the original total starting value for each installed mod.

A srambler then has what draw back as a mounted mod? Its easy to fit, requires almost no cap, requires you to be simply in range and has no down side then posibly just taking up a slot (just like the original arguments for and wcs nerf in the first place).

In general I dont wnat to see all mods have plus side and a minus side, what happens to the basic idea of mounting a thing to improve a base thing. In the case of wcs a nerf that would screw the abusers of the mod (those with full racks of them) is in order.But the curent situation is that wcs are useless.

Uesless in that once you mount one you might as well mount 6 because your at such a disadvantage anyway. If one or 2 could be considered as part of a viable combat complement things would be differnt.

The out side of gates is where some one that is not set for PVP will be ganked with no real option. If a pilot mounts one for a trip to a mission location then has to disable the mod just to even make an atenmped at running it somethings worng. Mission rats as well as belt rats do scramble (not in most cases) so at this point your going to have to get it right the first time each and every time or your done. The gankers have got a cake walk in comparison. This nerf means that a missin runner has a much less of a chance of compleating a mission with out a small team to ensure that if srambled the team can over come the mission rats before the scrambled pilot is destroyed. The same team idea when aplied to PVP is esential. The 20k scrambler will be come the mod of chice for gankers if not 2 of them to ensure a catch most of the time ( this will catch all but pure travel setups ). The idea that the one on one dual is always dictated by the ganker is going to be a a nerf to the base game play of eve (because mounting even one WCS is to make you combat innept).

For the record im in a Vagabond most of the time. Im a PVP pilot and rat for when i need ISK. I love the idea that when i finaly get out to that dam sniper way out there i now stand a chance of catching him, i run 1 20k scrambler. But if that sniper makes a serious effort not to be cought by mounting (2 or more)obsered amounts of wcs and there for gimping his snipe setup then he deservees to get away, i should employ some help or a new tatic.

In conclusion 50% targeting nerf per mod is way over done. I would like to see 1 or posibly 2 wcs setups be viable ship setups for most of EVE's needs. This would preserve the professions of the care bare as something you wount losse at more often then you can be sucesfull. Newer pilots in the EVE univers are hurt far worse by this then the veterens. As one of EVE's long time members I have plenty of advantages over newer pilots as it is.

Not to mention that under the curent ways of things one only needs to logg off quickly to escape, in wich case this entire discussion is then academic. [:eviEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

Moksa
Beyond Divinity Inc
Beyond Virginity
Posted - 2006.11.30 05:42:00 - [231]
 

well im not going to read past what the op posted but i agree with him, they should make stabs hauler only =p

Krows
Caldari
Resource Reallocators Incorporated
Posted - 2006.11.30 05:55:00 - [232]
 

I really don't get why we just can't fit one without any pentalty. Just one.

I've done my fair share of hunting in low-sec and I'll be honest; pirates are quick to say carebears should work in groups to survive on their missions, why don't you pirates just use groups to counter ONE GODDAMN WARP CORE STABILIZER? I only ask for ONE, so I actually have a chance against the random pirate interceptor that's just ****ing around with me. Pirates sometimes cry worse than carebears.


murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.30 06:00:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Krows
I really don't get why we just can't fit one without any pentalty. Just one.

I've done my fair share of hunting in low-sec and I'll be honest; pirates are quick to say carebears should work in groups to survive on their missions, why don't you pirates just use groups to counter ONE GODDAMN WARP CORE STABILIZER? I only ask for ONE, so I actually have a chance against the random pirate interceptor that's just ****ing around with me. Pirates sometimes cry worse than carebears.




no. stop whining. kthx

Krows
Caldari
Resource Reallocators Incorporated
Posted - 2006.11.30 06:22:00 - [234]
 

Well aren't you a constructive one. I'm surprised how low quality these boards are considering the supposed "intelligence and patience" required to play this game.

Therefore, I must disagree with your childish antics and retort with a " go in the corner and fornicate yourself."

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:00:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Grez
You're basicly argueing against the foundations of EVE, which is why it's got where it is today.
EVE is INTENDED to be a PVP game. But the majority of subscribers are PVE. Traders + Mission Runners + Miners + Manufacturers + Researchers + Rat Hunters on one side, Pirates and Alliance Fighters (yes I DO make the distinction) on the other.

It doesn't surprise me that PVPers don't argue very well...their in game method of going in with all guns blazing seems to have transferred over to the forums is all.

And I DO wish people would stop whining on about the "kills they lost to 4+ WCS"...I'm not ASKING for a reintroduction of the OLD system...I'm asking for the ability to fit ONE solitary WCS. Rolling Eyes

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:10:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Krows
Well aren't you a constructive one. I'm surprised how low quality these boards are considering the supposed "intelligence and patience" required to play this game.

Therefore, I must disagree with your childish antics and retort with a " go in the corner and fornicate yourself."


Sorry, just too used to the Caldari morons flaming my blastership threads with the same.

Stabs should be non combat only. It's far too easy the way it is now to avoid combat/death 100% if you don't want to. You don't need any help from stabs.

Davlos
Deus Imperiosus Acies
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:32:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Davlos on 30/11/2006 10:34:43
My God... Shocked I can't believe that I actually bothered to read all 8 pages in detail.

As my exclamation mark avatar suggests, I'm a rather new player, and it doesn't take a doctorate in rocket science to figure how to survive in lowsec. I was missionrunning for two months, got god-awful bored with the inane NPC-ing and bugged off to 0.0

If you truly are that risk-averse and demand that everyone must pander to your playstyle, please sell your veteran account (as so proudly stated on your signature) to a 0.0 resident who probably needs it in earnest to make money for his PvP endeavours, use that money to get a WoW account (and lots of gold from sites like IGE.com!) and continue your PvE love. Because that's where I came from, and despite even having lived in PvP servers, it's mind-numbingly easy, and you want the easy way out.

From,

A very satisfied CCP customer and 4 month-old player.


P.S. Skillpoints are mere numbers. My Stabbers don't even have tech2 guns yet but, mmm, they kill.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:41:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Grey Area on 30/11/2006 11:42:17
Four months old and already a true PVPer...you got the "My playstyle is better than YOUR playstyle" attitude off to a tee already. Daddy must be so proud.

I play to relax after a hard day. You play for the excitement. Both styles are equally valid. Carebears seem to be more accepting of that than PVPers.

I haven't been to 0.4 or lower for ages. This WCS nerf doesn't affect me. The people I think it WILL affect (other than the five-stab-ship users that the nerf was (justifiably) introduced to counter) are;

1. Mission runners in low sec (NOT 0.0...that is a different set of rules)
2. People who prey on mission runners in low sec

Whether or not you think the WCS was an "idiot module", it is certainly the case that mission runners who operated on the edge of empire space would fit one or two if they were crossing over into 0.4. The nerf is now so heavy that fitting even ONE is simply not viable. Watching the scanner while in a mission in a busy 0.4 system is NOT as simple as the PVPers would have you believe, and even if it were, the result of it is the same...the PVPers want you to bug out as soon as you see them...but they might not be scanning for YOU. Thus you could end up leaving the system when you weren't really at threat...less missions completed, less ISK earned and possible standing damage as well. The WCS was an extra safety net...if the pirates appeared, you MIGHT get a chance to warp out before enough scrambling points were aimed at you...meaning you could complete more missions. You MIGHT still get dead too....but at least you FELT as though you had a chance.

Now, with a combination of improved scanning (even without skills, pirates are finding mission runners in under 5 minutes...most level 4 missions take close to 30 minutes to complete, some more) and the effective removal of WCS, it's not a RISK of PVP when running a mission in low sec, it'a GUARANTEE.

The pirates who prey on mission runners PRIOR to revelations knew what they were doing. I had a grudging respect for them. I didn't like what they did, but it was their right to do it. Now, any noob with a scanner can do the same. Mission runners do not stand a chance of doing what they came to do...i.e. to complete the mission. You may think this is going to lead to a killfest for you, and for a couple of weeks I'm sure it will. but as soon as mission runners realise that completion rate of mission in low sec is going to be less than 10%, they will simply STOP COMING.

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:01:00 - [239]
 

Grey, you've gone from almost every post, replying with some form of insult "Daddy would be so proud". You're not going anywhere in this thread. This game IS about PVP, wiether you pretend it is or isn't, is none of my concern, or anyone elses. But we're telling you, you're argueing against the foundations of EVE itself, which is rather silly.

This nerf, whilst not for the benifit of everyone, is there to stop people fitting them so they can get away easily when someone comes to kill them, which is what you want. You may not want to fit 4 WCS', but you want to fit one, which is just as bad. It stops that person getting their well deserved kill.

You are NOT supposed to be able to sit in a mission, and be able to warp out the moment one enemy comes along. There ARE supposed to be risks involved, and you've now entered the world of the REAL EVE.

So, I say again. Adapt, or leave. That's all it boils down too. There's no if's, no but's, just adapt, or leave.

- Grez

Davlos
Deus Imperiosus Acies
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:11:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Davlos on 30/11/2006 12:14:20
True blue PvP'er? Um, no. Not me. *smiles widely* No sir-ee. I will have to confess here that I kinda spend more time in Mito constellation, that ******** of EVE, making money in lowsec missions to recoup my losses due to my massive number of ship losses, to the chagrin of my new employers.

Fitting Warp Core Stabs has never even occured to me once as a viable option until a previous corpmate commented to me about it after we put seven points of warp scrambling on a gatecamping Armageddon. But even then, the only time I've ever put WCS onto myself is to have ten of them in my cargo hold just for laughs, when my ship gets popped.

You either adapt to game changes or you die. I've been a carebear for up to a decade ever since I began RPG gaming on MUDs, but one can only carebear for so long, much less in one like this that revolves around PvP.

Your "concerns" nearly border on demands for consensual PvP, and if you desire to take your argument further, you may end up demanding CCP for instanced zones of this game because unconsensual PvP makes you itch and want to approach the Subordinate Courts.

It's not hard to survive missionrunning in lowsec. Adapt. Learn. Doing the aforementioned procedures in the previous posts are like second instincts to me now. It's not hard. If a four-month old newbie like me can do it, why can't you, a three year-old player do it?

And of course, daddy has been proud. He taught me to use the systems in my environment for my benefit, not to whine about it.

I'm happily reaping my benefits here.

If you really, really want a MMO to sit back and relax after a long day's work, EVE is not for you to burst blood vessels over.


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