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blankseplocked Tech II BPOs; Why do some have a license to print ISK?
 
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Perani
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:54:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Darcie Wray
You inspired me to read the first post again, and while the OP did not say it in as few words as I did, the whole point of his thread was that CCP created an unfair system and CCP needs to change it. So the OPs post does, in effect, say what mine just did.


Hooray for brevity.

Alex Under
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.09 17:59:00 - [152]
 

I think I can safely say that for the most part most us of have T2 BPO envy. Yes the prices on certain items are grosely overpriced (Vaga for example), but CCP designed it this way. It's been this way for a year and a half now and people are still complaining. Do I agree with the lottery, maybe not, but it's what CCP decided how the T2 blueprints would be distributed. Some have made lots of money from either producing the items or by selling the blueprint to the highest bidder.

Hopefully when Revelations (Kali) comes out, the Invention skil might eliviate some of the frustration some people have with the T2 Production and pricing. I for one am looking forward to it. I'd love to be able to produce my own T2 Damage Control, there's no way I can justify paying 200 Million for one when it only takes 2 million to produce (rough estimate).

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:11:00 - [153]
 

"I was actually playing semantics but guess you missed that. The point I was making was that the isk they gain already exists. I guess you missed that too. Is the lottery unfair, yes. But then I never disputed that. Like I said, just semantics."


No every gets the point that anyone can make isk in this game, the point people are making is that some people due to a very bad design decision, make absurds amoutns of isk for thier efforts with little risk which is essentially like someone finding a buggy npc spawn and farming it 23/7. This is obviously a serious game issue and should have been fixed ages ago. I mean there are people who can afford to sit and blow up BS after BS for days, with it mattering, all because a very poorly implmented game mechanic, meanwhile the next guy has to mine for a day just to get a battle ship....

Brooke Prime
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:30:00 - [154]
 

This is just rediculous

The fact of the matter is the % of the population of EVE that is mega billionaires from tech 2 is what 1-2% maybe 5% at most. So what all you are saying is that because 5% of the population can afford inflated prices on tech 2 items it ruins the game for the other 95%. right, ok, im not quite seeing that.

The only time this has any effect is when one of the 95% come up against one of the 5% in PVP.

Any other time and its tech 2 vs tech 2 or tech 1 vs tech 1.

There is very little in this game that cannot be acomplished with tech 1. So WHY does everybody feel they have to have tech 2 to rat in / mine in. sure its easier/quicker, but is ratting less fun in a tech 1 BS than in a tech 2 HAC ?. NO, Is mining less fun , NO.

The only people who will really benefit from a drop in tech 2 prices are PVPers. But i use the word benefit loosly here as I dont see it making a blind bit off difference.


So lets look at that.

as far as my experiences are there are two types of PVP. The fleet blob and the small scale gank.

Fleet battles will not dramitacally alter if half the opositon fleet become Tech 2, becase half your fleet will aswell. There will be no net change in gameplay.And most fleet battles only happen when one side dramatically outnumbers the other and they strike before the other realises they are outgunned.

Small scale gank. Most PVP involves finding someone you woefully outmatch and killing him. be it a ratter who has aggro, or a miner, or just someone travelling who you happen on. Id put gate camping here to as you are essentially just waiting for someone you outgun to come to you instead of looking for them.

PVP only generally happens when one side outguns the other. Lowering the price of tech 2 wont make a blind bit of difference. Instead of getting ganked by a vaga while ratting in a BC/BS, you will get ganked by 2 vagas while ratting in your vaga.

I am one of the few who dosnt have to worry about ISK, but you know what, almost limitless resourses make this game less fun, NOT more fun. I basically log on, change some skills, all my freinds go ratting, I sit in station chatting cos i dont need to rat. I refuel the POS. After a couple hours of this, I go PVP for an hour, IN A PUNSHER. The only PVP i do is frig swarms, they are the most fun by a mile. And you know what. I could have done all this without a "money printing BPO". For every hour of fun there are 4 hours of boredom because while everyone else is having fun making ISK, I have absolutley nothing worth doing.

If the price of all tech 2 items dropped this game would lose a large portion of its player base as they become as bored and disinterested as I have at times. IF the playerbase falls, guess what, there is suddenly a glut of tech 2 items and prices fall to almost production costs as they did with tech 1.

This games needs a few elite redicoulously priced items as an acheivable goal for the masses to aim at.

When/if tech 3 comes along then fair enough tech 2 becomes the baseline and BPOS should become available on the market. Until then trying to make tech 2 baseline is both absurd and dangerous.

You can flame me all you like. Acuse me of being biased as I have a BPO. I realy dont give a ****. Having the BPO does nothing for my gameplay anymore. I run lvl 3 missions in BC with tech 1 fitting and PVP in a punisher. Having alot of money in my wallet while doing this makes no difference, I would be TOTALLY unafected if tech 2 BPOS become available on the market.

My veiws are not out of greed but out of worry that we could end up returning to the dark ages of tech 1 when everything sold for nearly production value.

And to all those people who complain about us trolls who stand up for the system and how we just come up with the same tired responses. LMFAOROFL.
I have seen alot of tired responses, but you also totally ignore all the resonable posts completely and then just restate yoursef

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:49:00 - [155]
 

Brook thanks for that post, you summed up my situation nicely. Aside from making t2 items, I really have not much else to do, I have pvp'd, did the alliance warfare thing, fleet battle thing, the solo pvp thing...etc... and all that is left for me is capital ship combat. However, my cap ships are not called on everyday, so most days I have nothing to do. So I created a newb char to start EvE again from scratch, make new friends, run a couple of missions, answer questions for the newer players or bail them out of a camped low sec system.

The Chauffeur
Gear Ratio
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:01:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Brooke Prime
This is just rediculous

The fact of the matter is the % of the population of EVE that is mega billionaires from tech 2 is what 1-2% maybe 5% at most. So what all you are saying is that because 5% of the population can afford inflated prices on tech 2 items it ruins the game for the other 95%. right, ok, im not quite seeing that.



can you prove this? i suspect the maths are somewhat different. assuming there are 30,000 regular, active players, your implication is that there are apprx. 800 - 1500 people in-game to whom ISK is meaningless. that seems very high. how does this compare to the number of T2 BPO holders with active accounts? are that many T2 BPOs seeded and active? i would think the number of people holding all T2 BPOs would be much smaller. that means the vast majority of players do have to deal with the market, and the issues outlined above.

to put it another way, suppose some T2 BPO holders don't produce, or copy, and instead make an extremely limited number of items, given only to a few close allies? in this example, there is no "market", so the question of fairness is irrelevant. i suspect this is the case for a number of items.

Originally by: Brooke Prime

If the price of all tech 2 items dropped this game would lose a large portion of its player base as they become as bored and disinterested as I have at times. IF the playerbase falls, guess what, there is suddenly a glut of tech 2 items and prices fall to almost production costs as they did with tech 1.



i agree that you can do anything you want generally speaking with T1 items. but that's not the point. if people want T2 items, they should be available. your assumption that people would quit the game if the T2 BPOs were seeded more frequently is unfounded. do you know of any producers who quit because of a price drop on their main selling product? further, if these people quit, and they aren't producing (or are only producing in limited quantities - e.g. the whole reason for this thread) then the supply of T2 items won't increase, and there won't be a glut. fewer non producers does not equal an increase in production. i suppose the BPOs would simply sit around on inactive accounts, be sold and resume production, or go to someone else who would hold them.

Originally by: Brooke Prime

This games needs a few elite redicoulously priced items as an acheivable goal for the masses to aim at.



you mean like faction loot on escrow? in a few years i might buy some.

Originally by: Brooke Prime

When/if tech 3 comes along then fair enough tech 2 becomes the baseline and BPOS should become available on the market. Until then trying to make tech 2 baseline is both absurd and dangerous.



i also agree that tech 2 should never become "baseline", or even all that common, but that doesn't mean it should be unattainable. perhaps CCP has some percentage ratio of T1 vs T2 items they'd like to see in general usage, like 80/20 or 90/10. i really don't know.

Originally by: Brooke Prime

You can flame me all you like. Acuse me of being biased as I have a BPO. Having the BPO does nothing for my gameplay anymore... I would be TOTALLY unafected if tech 2 BPOS become available on the market.



if you sell items, and the supply increases, in theory you will make less money, unless for some reason demand again outstrips the increased level of supply.

Originally by: Brooke Prime

My veiws are not out of greed but out of worry that we could end up returning to the dark ages of tech 1 when everything sold for nearly production value.



i don't think even the OP wants that. i don't personally care how the BPOs are seeded. i'm poor so i'm out of the running anyway. but if the items are not making their way from the BPO holders into the game, then it's a problem, and it needs to be solved as soon as possible. This isn't a personal attack, just something to think about.


Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:15:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 09/11/2006 19:17:08
Originally by: Brooke Prime

If the price of all tech 2 items dropped this game would lose a large portion of its player base as they become as bored and disinterested as I have at times. IF the playerbase falls, guess what, there is suddenly a glut of tech 2 items and prices fall to almost production costs as they did with tech 1.



Sorry, I don't agree with this statement at all. No one is talking about making T2 prices fall to T1 levels, just to something that is remotely achievable by the average player. And being forced to rely exclusively on T1 gear because T2 gear is continuously priced out of reach because of fixed, inadequate supply and ever-growing demand is much more likely to cause a large portion of the player base to become "bored and disinterested". It will also certainly lead to more ISK purchases via GTC, e-Bay, etc., as the unwashed masses resort to these methods as the only means to acquire the shiny T2 toys.

Originally by: Brook Prime

When/if tech 3 comes along then fair enough tech 2 becomes the baseline and BPOS should become available on the market. Until then trying to make tech 2 baseline is both absurd and dangerous.



Your argument is a straw man. No one in this thread is talking about making T2 the baseline--rather the emphasis seems to be on ensuring that supply be increased to correspond to the large increase in players since the BPOs were seeded, and to put in place some means to discourage anti-competitive behavior by the BPO holders. I think that failing to take effective action to create more supply of T2 items is a really bad idea, although I wouldn't go so far as to call it absurd or dangerous (it doesn't sound like invention will be a very effective means of doing this).

I don't really have anything against the T2 BPO holders: they made some shrewd decisions, put in some time, and were lucky enough to receive hugely disproportionate rewards. But I don't have much sympathy for them either--if you got a BPO in the lottery, you've already gotten whatever dues you're entitled to (actually far more)--if you bought it, you bought it subject to the risk that CCP would nerf T2 BPOs in some manner, and it is clearly time to do so.


Brooke Prime
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:37:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Brooke Prime on 09/11/2006 19:40:45
Before I go any furhter, I do not think the current system is perfect. But neither do i think it is as broken as people make out.

If ccp decided to hand out a couple more BPOS fine. i doubt this would appease many people at all tho. If they started giving out short run BPCS great. But I really dont think any of these measures will reduce the price of items and therefore we will be back here on the forums again.

Only larger scale BPO/BPCs hitting circulation will effect price and then prices will be too low. If CCP have a choice of prices to high and prices to low they will go with too high every time.

To The chauffer. Nice post.

I Know what you mean. I agree tech 2 should be obtainable to all. But I disagree completely that all tech 2 should be obtainable to all.

IMHO at the moment Tech 2 fills a gap between Tech 1 and faction loot. Eve is a goal orientated game. There is no endpoint, you cant finish it, therefore a series of goals is the only way to structure it. Faction loot sitts at the top of that tree as far as I can see and always will. I also beleive that as more and more people can afford tech 2 CCP will have to implement tech 3 to add another set of goals between Tech 2 and faction loot. When the gap between peoples goals gets so big the timespans needed to obtain it become a barrier to enjoying the game.

To Tanaris also nice post.

I know tech 2 will never cost as little as tech 1, Im talking about the sell value compared to production value. If supply is greater than demand then prices will keep falling until they are almost the same, alot of tech 2 items then will be what tech 1 x 2, hardly a massive gap. the problem is the more money you have, the easier it becomes to make it, therefore the price gaps at the top of the market have to get bigger in order to keep the time taken to bridge each gap take the same amount of time as the gap before it.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:05:00 - [159]
 

I went through the yellow post again as requested. I'm afraid I failed to find any new arguments or facts there.

I went through and shredded each paragraph (in a constructive way of course), but the forum has eaten my reply twice so far and I can't be bothered to do it again.

You don't seem to realize that most of the people that dispute what you have to say DO understand why you are upset. However, you seem to fail to understand that they don't agree with it. How you can tell people that actually do this type of production that they are wrong and you are correct is... well... nevermind, I'm trying to be constructive (even though there isn't much to work with in this discussion).

Most of your assertions and assumptions are incorrect, but since you won't listen to anyone but your supporters, I will leave your thread to join the large number of identical past threads to languish in obscurity.

We will see what invention holds. I doubt we will hear much from you after that.


Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:05:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
CCP introduced research and Tech II items about a year and a half ago. Given in extremely limited quantities for almost every type of item, Tech II ships boast some very nice statistical advantages over their tech I counterparts.

And now every single one of them has been claimed. At present time, it is impossible to get a Tech II BPO because every one of them is in the hands of a player.

And now, only a select group of people who started playing the game before anyone else, got lucky, or bought out the competiton, have the monopolies to control the entire supply of every tech II item in existance.

This system has been long broken and many people have made hundreds of billions of ISK off of their Tech II blueprints - especially the Hulk, which sells for half a billion ISK a piece. The question goes out to CCP then, why have you allowed this to continue unabated, and let these players make their billions of ISK whilst every other player in the game has to actually work for their ISK? There was no risk for the early starters for their reward, and now they have the cash to do whatever they please.

I find this whole situation highly unfair, and with the number of hoops that you have to jump through to make invention work, these monopolies will still be maintained, because all you'll get is a poor quality BPC for your hours of effort. Is the reward going to even match the effort put into invention versus missioning, production, or ratting? When you think about how you have to get invented blueprint items, the rewards will not make up for the efforts.

The opportunity to break the monopoly has been present from the beginning via simply seeding more BPOs with the R&D agents, especially the blueprints for HACs. Why not add a dozen more of each HAC blueprint to open them up to more than just the elite?

The only excuse CCP has for not doing so is that the BPO holders would up and quit the game. So lets say at worst 20 people actually end up quitting the game over this. Big deal. Everyone else would be substantially happier; its not fair having to spend half a billion ISK for a ship that costs 100 million to make, nor 300 million for a ship that costs 30 million to make.

CCP, you have no good excuse to maintain the BPO monopoly, and invention does not look like a good solution to opening it up to the rest of the harder working masses. Could you please make the T2 situation fair? Seed BPOs with the R&D agents again, or heck, put up some of the older ones on the market if you have good standings with the faction - which has the double bonus of serving as a big ISK sink. The monopoly holders have made their fortunes - why not even the gap between people who have played for years and the people still discovering the game?


you've obviously put a lot of effort into your post so I'm not going to flame you. But like it or not, CCP have said they are not going to change the tech 2 BPOs. In 5 years (I hope!!) tech 2 bpos will be worth ten times more. And that's good.

Anyone can buy any (almost, except for the unreleased BPOs) tech 2 item, it's just very expensive.

A few people have the BPOs yes. A tiny amount of people compared to the populace. But look at real life. Only a "few" own the equivalents. Bill Gates, George Bush, Steve Jobs, ... Henry Ford, Jesse Boots... It goes back a long time in human history - some people are just lucky. It happens. And yes you can get Windows from Bill Gates, but he'll charge you more than its worth. That's how they make money.

Just... get used to it. Your thread wont change anything.

Just do what I do - find a good corp, get into deep 0.0 and make money. Eventually you can afford one. I can buy a HAC a week doing simple ratting at weekends and 2 hours a night. Can they make 10x as much without undocking? Yes. But so can bill gates.

*shrugs*

Eilene Fernite
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:12:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Darcie Wray
snip


Feel free to respond to the other points I made as well. Or just say that you have a gripe with a system that works fine for the most part, but that you just can't stand the fact that some people are luckier or smarter than you.


Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.11.10 00:26:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Xaildaine on 10/11/2006 00:28:03
Originally by: The Chauffeur
Originally by: Brooke Prime

When/if tech 3 comes along then fair enough tech 2 becomes the baseline and BPOS should become available on the market. Until then trying to make tech 2 baseline is both absurd and dangerous.



i also agree that tech 2 should never become "baseline", or even all that common, but that doesn't mean it should be unattainable. perhaps CCP has some percentage ratio of T1 vs T2 items they'd like to see in general usage, like 80/20 or 90/10. i really don't know.


I cant find the Dev blog that says it atm but it has been stated by the Devs that all the ships and mods are balaanced at the T2 lvl not at t1


the fact is that to progress in building in this game beyond T1 ships and mods is out of the question for any player who joind after the lotto and dosnt want to GTC RL $ for isk.

Also lets not forget that the fact that ships are sold for %500 above build cost tells us that there are not enough isk sinks in the game.. If you could buy a 10 run T2 BPC from an NPC for a few billion then not only would you be dropping cash out of the game you would also have an achievable goal to aim for.



Rusty Shakleferd
Posted - 2006.11.10 00:49:00 - [163]
 

just look at cost of production and the actual sale price of items...

lots of people are getting screwed...

ShockedShockedShocked

example.... HACS.... WTF is 200 mill... I remember the day when it was 60

Perani
Posted - 2006.11.10 01:12:00 - [164]
 

I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2006.11.10 01:25:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw


lol! easy to say, not easy to do. I seen several say the same thing, and when they get a bpo they squeeze the most out of it. Or experience re-sellers get the profit they could have had, and rise the price anyways.


Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2006.11.10 01:41:00 - [166]
 

For what its worth, I used to whine and moan about the t2 bpo seeding system for so long, albeit not on the forums. It all stopped when I got the HAC bpo.

Dont worry guys, if I got lucky, so can you

Dragon Slave
Gallente
Tranquil Transactions
Posted - 2006.11.10 02:34:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Dragon Slave on 10/11/2006 02:35:38
You have to love the people who think the problem with the T2 BPO system is because of "monopolies" and "greedy BPO owners". I had a lovely discussion with an old friend the other day about Cap Recharger II's. Because these items were the first to skyrocket in prices, people like him firmly believes there is a cartel behind these items. How else can you explain why an item that just cost a couple of 100k to produce can be sold at 20m?! Ofcourse the evil people behind it went togheter and collectively set the price this high to rip off EVE!

Or, as a slight possibility, could this be due to the fact that this item got very low requirements but can be used in almost all setups to increase their effectivity, thus creating an amazingly huge demand for them, even from the time from when they were first seeded?

I never managed to convince my old friend, he had some "proof" or something about this mysterious Cap II cartel, but basicly I tried to hammer into his head that if *all* cap II BPO owners togheter set a price way higher then the demand is, wouldn't that create loads of cap II stashes, thousands of modules just sitting in the hangar thus creating a 100% loss of profit not gained per item? He said, no, because people needed the module they bought them for overprices anyways. Duh. Most basic rule of management defied in the face of your common conspiracy. Awesome!

Well, it certainly did not end there. It seemed as, in order to counter my arguments, he had to agree to the fact that there were huge stashes of unsold cap II's. With a broken example, he said that selling 100 cap II's at a too high price would cover the loss of the other 100 that were not sold, since you could sell 100 cap II's at 15m but 200 at only 5m. This was founded on brilliant market research I presume, or this would not be a good argument, would it? I guess it was not. In the end, getting all of your goods sold will always give you a better profit in the end, simple because only lowering your price a little would result in many modules sold. What you don not want to spend to fit on your inty or cruiser, but you buy for your BS would by lowering the price change into a module you can also use on your lower valued assets, thus creating a much larger demand.

This also applies to other T2 BPO's, the reason we see hulks for 500m a piece is because everyone wants them, but only 16 or so are produced every day. The T2 system is broken because of the fact that the population of EVE even becoming larger as well as more people reach the skill requirements for many T2 items. Introducing a supply-limited system to such a market was not very well thought of by CCP, which they probably already realized a long time ago. This has now turned T2 into a luxury ware, and personally I believe that Invention will solve the biggest problem here, the prices on items such as cap II's, HACs etc. will be greatly lowered since the supply of these items will increase by manifold once invention hits TQ. That is a fact, because afterall, there is a lot of ISK to be made in this area of the game. It is still rather unfair, a few people just got a big ISK injection from an ingame lottery, but atleast the market itself is not as corrupted as people wish to believe. It is perfectly fine, we just need a way to balance the T2 BPO's demand/supply a little, and that is exactly what CCP thought about when adding invention to Kali. It is a great tool of balancing the market, well thought through since the BPC's will be uneffective, thus making it pointless to invent low-profit T2 BPC's, only balancing the T2 market where it is needed. Inventors will only get BPC's that will give them coin for their work, so with this it should be end of the discussion I hope.

And to the people who think these problems would be resolved by having all BPO owners lower the prices, think about what would happen when there are no more modules on the market, and what "resellers" would do to fix it Laughing

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.10 02:45:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw

If I got a T2 BPO I'd sell the items for as much as I possibly could, with out idea of maximizing my profit. It is not the T2 BPO producers who are doing something wrong. It's CCP for creating the system. In almost all cases, we do not want any T2 prices to be lower. We want more people getting the reward, instead of a very few who have so much isk they cant spend it all.

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:07:00 - [169]
 

"The fact of the matter is the % of the population of EVE that is mega billionaires from tech 2 is what 1-2% maybe 5% at most....The only time this has any effect is when one of the 95% come up against one of the 5% in PVP."

This affects me every time I think about it. Whether I personally pvp against this 1% of the population who have nearly effortless and unlimited isk or not does not matter. What matter is that they exist. Am I jelous? Yes. In the same way I'm jelous at the drug dealer who has 4 mansions and drives a different extremely expensive car every day. I'm not saying you are evil like a drug dealer, but in a game like EVE if you want to be so rich and powerful, you should have to work for it, and work to maintain it.

"So WHY does everybody feel they have to have tech 2 to rat in / mine in. sure its easier/quicker, but is ratting less fun in a tech 1 BS than in a tech 2 HAC ?. NO, Is mining less fun, NO."

When you can buy any character you want and fly any ship you want and use everything, you begin to think like that.

"Lowering the price of tech 2 wont make a blind bit of difference."

The informed 'anti t2 bpo lottery' people are not calling for a massive lowering of t2 item price.

"I am one of the few who dosnt have to worry about ISK, but you know what, almost limitless resourses make this game less fun, NOT more fun. I basically log on, change some skills, all my freinds go ratting, I sit in station chatting cos i dont need to rat...For every hour of fun there are 4 hours of boredom because while everyone else is having fun making ISK, I have absolutley nothing worth doing."

[That is a PERFECT reason why no one should just be handed such a limitless and lucrative item as you received.

"...I go PVP for an hour, IN A PUNSHER. The only PVP i do is frig swarms, they are the most fun by a mile. And you know what. I could have done all this without a "money printing BPO"."

You know what? Its not our fault you dont spend your money. I would personally have a BLAST if I had unlimited isk. I would do 100 things for the fun of it, and then do 100 more when my list was done. If you can enjoy EVE without the BPO, why not give it to me? I'd make better use of it.

"If the price of all tech 2 items dropped this game would lose a large portion of its player base as they become as bored and disinterested as I have at times."

Again, we are not calling for a major price drop. Some T2 items might even need to be boosted. (but thats a totally diff issue)

"This games needs a few elite redicoulously priced items as an acheivable goal for the masses to aim at."

Faction stuff, and some of the t2 items. Just dont give the "elite redicoulously priced items" total profit to a select few players and everything is OK.

"Until then trying to make tech 2 baseline is both absurd and dangerous."

Not trying to do that. Read other posts.

"You can flame me all you like. Acuse me of being biased as I have a BPO."

Its not your fault. Its CCPs fault.

"Having the BPO does nothing for my gameplay anymore."

So give it to someone who would treasure it.

"I run lvl 3 missions in BC with tech 1 fitting and PVP in a punisher. Having alot of money in my wallet while doing this makes no difference, I would be TOTALLY unafected if tech 2 BPOS become available on the market."

So give it to me.

"My veiws are not out of greed but out of worry that we could end up returning to the dark ages of tech 1 when everything sold for nearly production value."

I beleive you. But in all honestly, you missed the major point of what is making people mad about the t2 bpo lottery. Many things in your post confirm that giving such huge reward to so few people is bad. not just for the people who are poor, but for the benifactors as well.

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:10:00 - [170]
 

Quote:
This also applies to other T2 BPO's, the reason we see hulks for 500m a piece is because everyone wants them, but only 16 or so are produced every day. The T2 system is broken because of the fact that the population of EVE even becoming larger as well as more people reach the skill requirements for many T2 items. Introducing a supply-limited system to such a market was not very well thought of by CCP, which they probably already realized a long time ago. This has now turned T2 into a luxury ware, and personally I believe that Invention will solve the biggest problem here, the prices on items such as cap II's, HACs etc. will be greatly lowered since the supply of these items will increase by manifold once invention hits TQ.


Currently Hulks cant be invented on Test server

Perani
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:11:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Darcie Wray
Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw

If I got a T2 BPO I'd sell the items for as much as I possibly could, with out idea of maximizing my profit. It is not the T2 BPO producers who are doing something wrong. It's CCP for creating the system. In almost all cases, we do not want any T2 prices to be lower. We want more people getting the reward, instead of a very few who have so much isk they cant spend it all.


    Ok, I think I was misunderstood; allow me to explain. The prices are so high because there is not enough supply, and hence not enough competition. I would simply charge a whole lot less because in my book, this situation is not fair. Maximizing profit sounds good, but spite is better.

zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:20:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw


They'll last forever, because resellers will snap them up so fast you wont have any idea whats going on, and you cant produce enough to flood the market.

Dragon Slave
Gallente
Tranquil Transactions
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:25:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Perani
Originally by: Darcie Wray
Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw

If I got a T2 BPO I'd sell the items for as much as I possibly could, with out idea of maximizing my profit. It is not the T2 BPO producers who are doing something wrong. It's CCP for creating the system. In almost all cases, we do not want any T2 prices to be lower. We want more people getting the reward, instead of a very few who have so much isk they cant spend it all.


    Ok, I think I was misunderstood; allow me to explain. The prices are so high because there is not enough supply, and hence not enough competition. I would simply charge a whole lot less because in my book, this situation is not fair. Maximizing profit sounds good, but spite is better.


Spite perhaps, but what would stop people from buying from you just so they could put it back up on market in order to make the profit you lost themselves? In the end, a lot of your BPO's potential income would just end up in other pockets, who have done much less to deserve the profit then you who actually build and supply the item. They just need to keep sell orders running in Jita. This is sadly what happens with a lot of the T2 items which are being produced at lower costs, people see people's effort to sell below supply/demand as a way for themselves to get a bit of the cake, thus you would do more people a favour by selling at the going prices, thus enabling the people who *really* want the item to get it for what they are prepared to pay, instead of them having to buy it from a second-hand dealer.

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:27:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: zeKzn
Originally by: Perani
I, herebly promise that if I were given a BPO, any BPO, I will never charge more than 100% of the costs it takes to make that item. Let's see how long those ridiculous prices last...

Competition ftw


They'll last forever, because resellers will snap them up so fast you wont have any idea whats going on, and you cant produce enough to flood the market.


We need T2 bpos/bpcs sold on the market as an isk sink for over ritch players (most likely t2 bpo owners already) and to balance the market for the buyer.
Also it would provide a good goal for new players/corps who build to shoot for.

Lotto is ******ed and not transparent.. im sure CCP are rubbing their ingame friends nuts with this system.. its getting old

Traxman
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:33:00 - [175]
 

Sorry that i dont have time to read thru all hte posts here
since im heading for work...

Licens to print isk.. sounds odd but did you consider
play for 12h per day avarage to try make isk by mining
npc missions complexe for 6 month to save up the isk
to BUY one instead of complaning of hte system ?

I did that above and still i havent got ANY T2 bpo
from the r&d system, i have saved all isk to BUY
them instead - instead of complaining that its
so bloody easy to get them - start instead of
thinking how to make isk - and save them and tehn
buy a T2 bpo...

Spend your time to think how to raise isk instead
complaining about it! Start with playing 12h per day
as above said and then start complain.

I can tho tell you that i was not really pleased when
i saw a 4 month old char get a Nighthawk bpo for silly
RPs... when i had 5 and for 1.5 years without nothing..
but thats the rules of hte lottery.

Ok, time for work its friday and tonight it wont be
eve online - it will be banana and tiger instead in
Patong Very Happy

Kael Hunter
Caldari
Hunter Military Industries
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
Posted - 2006.11.10 04:10:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
CCP introduced research and Tech II items about a year and a half ago. Given in extremely limited quantities for almost every type of item, Tech II ships boast some very nice statistical advantages over their tech I counterparts.

And now every single one of them has been claimed. At present time, it is impossible to get a Tech II BPO because every one of them is in the hands of a player.

And now, only a select group of people who started playing the game before anyone else, got lucky, or bought out the competiton, have the monopolies to control the entire supply of every tech II item in existance.

This system has been long broken and many people have made hundreds of billions of ISK off of their Tech II blueprints - especially the Hulk, which sells for half a billion ISK a piece. The question goes out to CCP then, why have you allowed this to continue unabated, and let these players make their billions of ISK whilst every other player in the game has to actually work for their ISK? There was no risk for the early starters for their reward, and now they have the cash to do whatever they please.

I find this whole situation highly unfair, and with the number of hoops that you have to jump through to make invention work, these monopolies will still be maintained, because all you'll get is a poor quality BPC for your hours of effort. Is the reward going to even match the effort put into invention versus missioning, production, or ratting? When you think about how you have to get invented blueprint items, the rewards will not make up for the efforts.

The opportunity to break the monopoly has been present from the beginning via simply seeding more BPOs with the R&D agents, especially the blueprints for HACs. Why not add a dozen more of each HAC blueprint to open them up to more than just the elite?

The only excuse CCP has for not doing so is that the BPO holders would up and quit the game. So lets say at worst 20 people actually end up quitting the game over this. Big deal. Everyone else would be substantially happier; its not fair having to spend half a billion ISK for a ship that costs 100 million to make, nor 300 million for a ship that costs 30 million to make.

CCP, you have no good excuse to maintain the BPO monopoly, and invention does not look like a good solution to opening it up to the rest of the harder working masses. Could you please make the T2 situation fair? Seed BPOs with the R&D agents again, or heck, put up some of the older ones on the market if you have good standings with the faction - which has the double bonus of serving as a big ISK sink. The monopoly holders have made their fortunes - why not even the gap between people who have played for years and the people still discovering the game?


Would you like some cheese to go with your Wine sir? Rolling Eyes

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.11.10 04:23:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Xaildaine on 10/11/2006 04:24:29
Originally by: Kael Hunter

Would you like some cheese to go with your Wine sir? Rolling Eyes


Would you like a T2 bpo for your 5 reasearch alts sir?

Mike Turocut
Posted - 2006.11.10 04:27:00 - [178]
 

Well, this is ultimately an exercise in problem solving. There's a bit of an additional quandrary, though: what's the problem?

The Topic Originator's problem is multi-faceted: his first complaint is that Teir II equipment (the useful stuff, anyway) is too expensive; his second is that those who managed to grab those useful TII BPO's are getting profits way out of sync with the traditional risk versus reward system. So, having identified the problem, we now need to find a system to work within that can help us in addressing the problem. Naturally, we arrive at the basic capitalistic economics of EVE. From here we should be able to work out a solution that leaves as many people as possible satisfied, right?

Wrong. EVE isn't entirely capitalist, not by a long shot. It's a command economy and CCP holds all the cards. Command economies can emulate capitalistic ones to various degrees (as EVE does), but they will always be inherently inferior when it comes to overall economic growth.

Therefore, I propose a new problem: the TII BPO trusts represent a strict upper limit within the industrial line of work. People who wish to enter into manufacturing cannot compete on that level, period. Therefore, we need to find a way to loosen the noose in the manufacturing field and reintroduce proper competition so that true capitalism can take over once more. You see, capitalism is a perfect system, it's just that people come along and mess it up occasionally.

One solution that is rather obvious begs a sort of concession on CCP's part: do they want TII to remain the upper limit or do they want the dynamic economy necessary to properly distribute goods in the EVE Online world? If they are willing to work hard to support a dynamic economy, then TII becomes only one stomping ground on the way up the ladder. Capitalist economies need roomo for expansion, which CCP is providing with new regions and the like. However, they also need to provide material expansion. This means very careful manipulation of the availability of TII BPOs and the introduction of a Teir III.

I would propose that they re-introduce the BPO lottery but make it much more difficult to win a TII BPO. Instead, make the more common result a TII BPC with various run limits. Do not close this lottery down, ever. Well, at least not until TII has an established, stable economy around it. From there, once TII has proliferated somewhat (but is still expensive to the point where "newer" or otherwise financially disadvantaged players still mostly use Teir I) you introduce a very tiny chance of winning TIII BPCs and a statistically almost impossible chance of winning a TIII BPO. You keep following this path into the indefinite future, slowly increasing the odds on each new teir as well as each previous teir. When Teir IV equipment and ships start showing up, you start putting TII things into the regular market.

This closely (as closely as a game could get) emulates the real world improvement cycle, where technologies and products are constantly tweeked and changed to improve themselves but become prohibitivily expensive in the process. However, as they become "yesterday's news" and enter more mass production (emulated by increasing chances of winning a BPC and BPO in the lottery) their price starts falling until they become entirely outdone by other products.

Think about it: computers with 200 GB of storage space and 2 GHz of processing speed would have been tens of thousands of dollars fifteen years ago, if not more. These days, I could build (or even purchase) a computer with those specs for less than a thousand dollars.

People need to let go of the idea of TII being anything special: it's just the next step. CCP just has to be willing to make the commitment to constantly add content in cycles like that.

Primaxin
Gallente
104th Ranger Mobile Combat Regiment
Posted - 2006.11.10 11:49:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Ralara

A few people have the BPOs yes. A tiny amount of people compared to the populace. But look at real life. Only a "few" own the equivalents. Bill Gates, George Bush, Steve Jobs, ... Henry Ford, Jesse Boots... It goes back a long time in human history - some people are just lucky. It happens. And yes you can get Windows from Bill Gates, but he'll charge you more than its worth. That's how they make money.


Let us remember what it is we are discussing here. This is an MMORPG. The "G" stands for "game". Now in real life, there are also games. When people compete in these games, they are usually structured so that luck has only a small amount of influence on the outcome, which is usually instead determined by the relative skill(s) and efforts of the different players/teams. It doesn't have to be that way. You could change the rules for basketball so that each team had a 5% chance of randomly having 200 points added to their total at any point during the game. This would make luck a much larger factor in the game; oddly enough, however, I haven't heard anyone suggesting or desiring such a rule change.

Now, when Bill Gates plays basketball, his money doesn't buy him extra points. In the same way, in this "game", if you want a level playing field which reflects the efforts and ingenuity and risk-tolerance of the players, then a game mechanic that weights luck so heavily is just completely out of place.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.11 12:11:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 11/11/2006 12:25:12
I'd just like to say thanks to Jacques and couple others in this thread for making more interesting than average points.

Tech 2 frustrates me, but only coz I dont have a BPO.

Something funny is that I've had HAC skills for a couple of months now and I'm about 10 days from Command Ship skills, but I've not had the ISK or the desire to pay that much ISK for a Deimos - I'll make do with my Thorax thank-you very much.

As for the system - CCP got it wrong by making R&D skills so passive - I'm sure they know that, but I think that is a moot point since the damage has been done, and cannot be reversed by simply turning BPOs to BPCs or just handing out more - that would be another unfair distribution - I mean if you've just saved 20 bil and bought your first tech 2 BPO which will take roughly 18 months to pay off then you'd be a bit annoyed if it became a BPC overnight.

Invention is an attempt at a solution since it 'should' reduce the cost of making the most popular modules, however how effectively this works is yet to be seen. I personally wont be trading in my 'hard earned' RPs for any data cores any time soon, but I look forward to paying huge amounts of ISK for those on the market. ugh

I personally think it is fine to have some uber-rich with the rest of us scraping by...It keeps the market dynamic...with even the top value gear changing hands quickly. Call it an exploit if you like, but it obviously isn't since CCP made it this way in the first place. I can accept their wealth knowing that it really doesn't stop the game being fun for me - it just makes it more rewarding to finally get that HAC etc etc I pity them with their huge sums of ISK and being locked into the mind set of nothing being hard-earned any more. hehe.

The thing I'm more bothered about though is there is still no real 'active' R&D in the game so RPs keep accumulating and for what?!?! Data cores only? Tech 3 BPOs? - I sincerely hope not. R&D is broken and needs fixing - we need more diverse playing styles that reward people for actively being scientists.

Until the future of R&D is sorted then this debate over Tech 2 will rage and rage without end, and both sides have completely valid arguments in my opinion...I'd just like to direct people's attention not to the BPO owners or the non-BPO owning masses - but divert attention back at CCP until they actually prioritize this 'broken system' higher up their 'to do' list and fix it for us all...There's even a top 10 'need fixing' thread run by Oveur in the Ideas section - how many have posted maons here and expect things to be done and not posted there?

I vote to make this a lets bash CCP thread!!! ugh

(Oh and check out my idea)


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