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blankseplocked Tech II BPOs; Why do some have a license to print ISK?
 
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Jon Boy
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
Posted - 2006.11.08 22:10:00 - [121]
 

Alright.
I've seen too much of this.
Just because you are so smart that you can explain HOW T2 BPOs go for so much, dosen't mean that it's not a problem. I've seen a surprising number of people thinking that because they understand it that makes it OK.

Cairhien
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.11.08 22:51:00 - [122]
 

As said before only a select group of bpo's make a lot of isk. I have an rcu II, had a conflagration M, and a lg armor repairer. The first two items are very hard to sell and I make very little for the effort required. The repairer is a little better. I can make more hunting rats in 0.0.

The vast majority of bpo's are not isk makers and some are almost worthless, just a few are very valuable and they should be rare.

Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights
Posted - 2006.11.08 23:00:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Lord Dynastron on 08/11/2006 23:12:50
Originally by: Serpensis
Originally by: zeKzn
Actually, the market is an oligopoly, and no player has anything like a monopoly.


For one, as that seems to be your favourite way of putting things; one player now owns all the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPOs. Not monopoly, huh?




No, not a monopoly! There are no monopolies in Eve as NO ONE PERSON has all the BPO's. You have Oligopolies,, some of them price fixing.

I estimate based on posts and chat watching he (Naal Morno) owns between one and three full sets of the various stages of Cloaking device BPOs. My research has shown me there are at least 20 BPOs for every T2 component. You think Naal has all 20!??!?
You can link me to post that says he has them all?

Lol,,, I sound like a Naal stalker.Laughing


---On Edit---

Interesting Linky on Cloaky

That prooves I think... No Monopoly!

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.08 23:03:00 - [124]
 

Yeah, Vagabond BPO is probably an isk printer while I have to imagine the Ares BPO is toilet paper.

Feng Schui
Minmatar
Cruor Evertum Dominicus
Posted - 2006.11.08 23:32:00 - [125]
 

Ok.... here we go:

I "win" a tech II bpo....

I start making the T2 item for ridiculous amounts of cash

I now have ridiculous amounts of cash...

Hrmm.. I still have ridiculous amounts of cash and it keeps coming...

Umm... what I am I going to do with all of this isk!


Ok, now how exactly does that effect the average joe schmoe? Ok, he pays more for that tech II ship (which he can earn in a day doing missions / mining / begging / or whatever)... who cares?

So 8 people in this game control 90% (lets say 90%... a gross over-estimate) of the isk that is out there.. how exactly does that affect me?

It doesn't.

(and no, I don't have any bpo's other than a couple of t1 small ammo bpo's... and all I buy are T2 gear / items -if i can use them)

Besides, if you look IN-DEPTH at the ISK trail, which I'm sure CCP has done... all of the isk earned by the T2 BPO holders eventually falls back into the hands of the everyday - joe - schmoe, through trading / buying gear / gear for alts / gear for corp / whatever.

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2006.11.08 23:51:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Pham Sirge
Hi all,

Every time please complain about the T2 bpos' Every bozo with a grasp of economics jumps up and down, ready for the big shocker:

We donít care if eve is a real life economy or not.

We just wanna fly the ships we have trained for (3 months or so) without having to spend an equal quantity of time grinding to afford it.

The current state means they are entirely uneconomical in pvp. The only people flying hac's into combat are corps who have an alignment with a bpo owner.

When I was down in ascn space we were offered cheaper(still above cost) hulks and hac's on the proviso we donít on sell them.

Now that we have left ASCN(about 2-3 months ago) Im back to shopping at empire prices and thatís just painful.

On a final note: T2 BPO owners seem to be a very vocal minority whenever their prices are questioned (Go go jenny spitfire)... and we always get those stupid 2 month old players "if you cant afford it donít buy it" when you grow up I'll consider your opinion.

HACS should not be a ship 0.0 pilots keep in their hanger to impress newbieís, Whatís the point of having them in game if the only people who use them are no-risk mission runners?

,
Pham Sirge



Why do we care about any realism in the game then by your logic?

Not even going to read the OP. Welcome to the 1000th thread about the same old t2 BPO crap.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2006.11.09 00:08:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Neon Genesis
Why do we care about any realism in the game then by your logic?

Not even going to read the OP. Welcome to the 1000th thread about the same old t2 BPO crap.


Thanks for providing your almost completely uninformed input. Rolling Eyes

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.11.09 00:45:00 - [128]
 

For the record it is important to understand it really isnt the price of t2 items that people truly are mad about, because yes we can choose to buy or not, I choose not, the problem is that the few lucky a-holes who won the lottery have an indefinite ISK printing machine, that is what is broken. That is what needs to be adressed. If the prices are to be high due to supply demand whatever it is, fine, but under no circumstance should somoen be able to have an alt sitting in a station making 500+ million for cueing up some orders and gathering supplies in jita for an hour and do this INDEFINITELY.

It is a no brainer this is a total game mechanic exploit that should be adressed, immediately no different than finding a broken complex spawn imho. People are getting rish with no effort for doing nothing in literally 100% safety for as long as they want.


So please stop clouding the issues claiming silly stuff like supply /demand, t2 was supposed to be rare blah blah blah. Noone can compete with them, noone can get the chance to add a new bpo to the market it is 100% borked.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.09 00:51:00 - [129]
 

Link to Kali Tech 2 suggestion thread

Currently, the situation with T2 items on Tranquility is utterly ridiculous.
I am not even talking about overpriced 300 million HACs (arguably, these
ships *should* be expensive - otherwise nobody would even consider flying
T1 ships).

I am talking about drones.

A Hammerhead II, for example, costs anywhere from 2 to 3 million ISK depending
on the region. A Hobgoblin II costs 200 K or more. The markup on these drones
is WAAAAY OVER 1000%. To make matters worse, the prices are being fixed by
unscrupulous manufacturers. A month ago, Hobgoblin IIs used to cost 150K, but
at some point the price just went up to 200K (check the graphs yourself).
There was absolutely no legitimate reason for this price increase.

There are two VERY negative consequences to the situation as it is:

1. Some nice items (Hammerhead II being a prime example) have become completely USELESS
from a practical standpoint. Drones get destroyed and lost. Though I am not all that poor, I cannot
afford to lose 2-10 million ISK every time I am forced to warp out from the belt or complex.
You don't lose a 20 million AF or a 300 million HAC every day, but you can easily waste 10 million
worth of Hammerhead IIs in a very short time.

2. The people who reap the (utterly ridiculous) Tech 2 manufactring profits are able to do WHATEVER
THEY PLEASE WITH NO RISK TO THEM WHATSOEVER. This is just WRONG, and utterly RUINS the game
for everyone else. To give you an example... Our mid-sized alliance has recently been wardecced by an
alt of a Tech 2 manufacturer (or, rather, a corp consisting of two of his alts). One of the alts is a 30+ mill SP
character that he has bought on the forums for 14 billion ISK. Both alts show up in fully T2 and faction fitted
HACs and battleships, and blast our miners and traders in the empire.
Our fighter wing has destroyed multiple enemy ships. Every one of these, according to killmails, cost at least
500-700 million just to outfit. Gisti shield boosters, True Sansha cap rechargers, and the like.
This has absolutely no material effect on our enemy, and his alts come right back with the same expensive equipment.
The reason for this war? Your basic "target practice". I guess, you can afford a 5 billion target practice with unlimited
ISK supply.
I am not whining about the war itself. But this kind of situation should not even be possible in the game, period.
It is just wrong on so many levels.

Now, Invention may partially solve the problem with overpriced big-ticket items (like HACs).
It will really make sense to go through all the trouble, get the datacores and BPCc to build an expensive ship that
will last for a relatively long time.

Invention will NOT solve the problem with overpriced small/destructible items like Hammerhead IIs, or ammo.
It will require me to go through the same amount of trouble as when "inventing" a HAC, yet the result will be
just a lowly Hammerhead II BPC.

My proposal:
1. Seed SIGNIFICANTLY more of the Tech 2 small item BPOs. The way things are now, Drone Specialization
skills are alsmost useless because of T2 manufacturers' greed!

2. Take measures against BPO consolidation and monopoilazation. If a person (or his alts, or his corp) come to possess
more than one BPO for any particular item, seed an additional BPO! This will (to a point) prevent people from stockpiling
the BPOs, and make the game more fun for others!

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.09 00:55:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui
Ok.... here we go:

I "win" a tech II bpo....

I start making the T2 item for ridiculous amounts of cash

I now have ridiculous amounts of cash...

Hrmm.. I still have ridiculous amounts of cash and it keeps coming...

Umm... what I am I going to do with all of this isk!


Ok, now how exactly does that effect the average joe schmoe? Ok, he pays more for that tech II ship (which he can earn in a day doing missions / mining / begging / or whatever)... who cares?

So 8 people in this game control 90% (lets say 90%... a gross over-estimate) of the isk that is out there.. how exactly does that affect me?

It doesn't.

(and no, I don't have any bpo's other than a couple of t1 small ammo bpo's... and all I buy are T2 gear / items -if i can use them)

Besides, if you look IN-DEPTH at the ISK trail, which I'm sure CCP has done... all of the isk earned by the T2 BPO holders eventually falls back into the hands of the everyday - joe - schmoe, through trading / buying gear / gear for alts / gear for corp / whatever.


^^^^^
See my post above.
The current broken system affects everyone, on multiple levels.
It makes "target practice" possible.
It makes risk-free billion-making possible.
And it is soooo broken and unfair.
People who have Tech 2 BPOs have not risked much when they have obtained the said BPOs.
Yet, they reap astronomical profits.
Not all the items bring astronomical profits, of course, but it is just no comparison to Tech 1 stuff.
Or any other activity in EVE.
Tech 2 has to be fixed.
Please post in Kali thread and make the devs aware!

Katja Frostbane
Amarr
The Valkyries
Posted - 2006.11.09 01:21:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: JForce
Whilst I don't like the current system, I've also yet to see a suggestion that's any better.



I posted awhile back about what would help out with the current system. Surprisingly, no response. The biggest complaint is that too few of the goods are out on the market, and too few people can produce them. My suggestion is rather simple.


Instead of an all or nothing approach, lets split the middle.

BPC's are given out at a much higher ratio than BPO's. The exact number - well who really knows how many BPO's are out there of each type. Perhaps 12-1 (BPC vs BPO) or 15-1 (or more). These runs could be from 1 run all the way up to 10 run. Lets go with a 12-1 ratio. So if we have say 10 BPO's of a ship, there would be 120 1 runs, 110 2 runs, 100 3 runs, 90 4 runs, etc slowly numbering down to 10 of the 10 run bpcs. All told you put a much larger amount out there - but when they are gone, they are gone. Who does this hurt? Well certainly the people with the BPO's. They no longer can make as much money. This would probably drop profits as much as 33% for ships. Hulks at 350m, is still 250m of profit.

Does this work in the long term? Hard to say. Initially stuff would be pretty cheap - and people would buy it up like mad. Which of course makes demand greater, so prices go up. When the numbers start to dwindle, then prices are naturally going to go up as well. Downside to this ? Can't see one.

scabbsssjr
Gallente
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2006.11.09 01:48:00 - [132]
 

Its nuts like 10x the build cost for a t2 ship, I know they are supposed to be elite, but still.

Helenae
Moon Rider Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.09 06:41:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Yeah, Vagabond BPO is probably an isk printer while I have to imagine the Ares BPO is toilet paper.


Imagine what i do with my purifier BPO Rolling Eyes

Raw build price with no moon : 2.8m
Sell price in lonetrek : 2.9m

With factory cost and sale taxe, you can loose money if you dont do your maths correctly Laughing

Rick Dentill
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:32:00 - [134]
 

The thought occured to me that the concept of T2 producers having a "license to print isk" because of their bpo is really silly. regardless of whether a manufacturer has their own pos or buys their materials from the market, the only isk that magically appears is from npcing, mission rewards etc etc. Ergo the T2 producers are in fact getting their isk from the people who do have said license, being anyone and everyone so the argument is flawed.

slothe
Caldari
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas.
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:43:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: slothe on 09/11/2006 08:50:13
Originally by: Serpensis
Originally by: zeKzn
Actually, the market is an oligopoly, and no player has anything like a monopoly.


For one, as that seems to be your favourite way of putting things; one player now owns all the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPOs. Not monopoly, huh?

.


not true. i own 1 covert ops cloak bpo.

the only "problem" with t2 bpos is the fact there is limited supply, a fact that ccp always said there would be. the market works so that a price is found for the items to match the supply. limited items with high demand means high price.

simply prices are high to match the demand. its no more complicated than this.

lok at hacs for example. cerberus is a mission runners dream = high price. stababond = pvp dream = high price. muninn sucks = relatively low price.

whos to blame for the price difference ? - buyers not sellers.the pricesare so high as thats what people are prepared to pay for them.

get over it.

the only way its going tochange is if cp wishesthere to be a greater supply. why should there be? there meant to be limited items. it is as itshould be.

some are lucky some arent.

whinge about something else. lok at macrominers or complex farmers - their more of a problem.

the reality is with t2 bpos is that the system works as intended.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:51:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 09/11/2006 08:52:37
"The thought occured to me that the concept of T2 producers having a "license to print isk" because of their bpo is really silly. regardless of whether a manufacturer has their own pos or buys their materials from the market, the only isk that magically appears is from npcing, mission rewards etc etc. Ergo the T2 producers are in fact getting their isk from the people who do have said license, being anyone and everyone so the argument is flawed."


LMAO, what people will say to try to convince themselves this is okay.... comical. Okay here it goes you're arguement is 100% flawed and flat out silly. There is a difference between licence to print ISK and people gaining money from "out of no where" being npcing, missions, or mining, none of which is a licence to PRINT ISK. IE they have to work long and hard to make thier ISK. So infact the only ISK that magically appears for doing diddly squat is those with a solid t2 bpo, they do nothing and isk magically appears and LOTS of it. Amazing how badly you twist things to try to justify the current broked t2 bpo situation..... Yes grinding on NPC for hours while at risk is a licence to print isk HaHahahahah mkay! Next you gonna suggest mining veldpar for months is also a isk printing machine... wait you just said that...


Let's also point out on top of that everyone and ANYONE can go out and npc, mine , mission run, but not anyone and infact VERY VERY few priveldged can make t2 items... quite a large difference... and hence why it is a isk printing machine.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2006.11.09 09:35:00 - [137]
 

The issues are really simple:

Getting a broken T2 BPO through lottery represents 1. minimal risk and 2. minimal effort, while offering a 3. very high reward. That high, in fact, that in practice it is close to impossible to reach the same reward by other means.

The balance of the game in other facets is largely based on risk and reward. It applies to mining, ratting, PvPing and pretty much everything else except research.

You work hard, you earn more.
You risk more, you stand to gain more.
You do nothing, risk nothing and stand to gain more than you could ever dream of.

Does that sound fair to you?

"Life is not fair."

Sharp observation, but there is no ought from is. Just because it isn't fair does not mean it shouldn't be.

Like it has been said, not all T2 BPOs are cash mashines. A large portion of them represents a decent profit which is not harmful to balance. It is the few prints that offer insane profits that are.

"It doesn't affect me if someone else wipes their arse with ISK"

No, because we know that the industrial backbone of an organisations makes no differense whatsoever to their success and progress in the foodchain. Those ships, equipment, and assets they have over you are obviously no benefit to their endeavours or ability to fight or hire guns. Rolling Eyes

To me a lot of the opinions sound like this:

"I think it's OK that some people are given the world on a platinum plate because theoretically I could've been one of them"

Well it's not OK. It's absurd, and being used to the idea does not change the fact. The fact that assets are not distributed based on effort and wits undermines our motivation and ability to compete and excel.

Unfortunately, like the previous numerous and frequent threads on topic, this one is way too late and will lead to no change. From day one the rip in the fabric has only expanded. The damage done is irreversible.

"Oh no the sky is falling! Get over it."

I'm living with it. Most of us are. It does not derive the enjoyment ouf of my gaming experience, and the negative consequences are rarely visible. In fact my organisation is quite lucky with BPOs, which I'm also indirectly exploiting. Yet I'd gladly change the whole system.

That's my 38665 cents.

Eilene Fernite
Posted - 2006.11.09 11:51:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Darcie Wray
should not qualify someone to own a BPO that has a market value of 70 billion freaking isk.


There are only a few bpo's out there that are worth 70 billion. None of those were worth 70 billion when they were given out in the lottery.

Quote:
Luck on that scale should not be used as a game mechanic. It should not be purposfully programmed into a game that is as realistic and challenging as EVE. Luck happens on its own enough without having some code decide some unworthy person gets to be the supreme mega-billionaire of EVE.


Unworthy? Supreme mega-billionaire? I'm starting to spot a tendency to exagerate in your post.

Quote:
What you t2 bpo lottery lovers dont understand is that CCP made a mistake making it SO EASY for a SELECT FEW to gain so much POWER with MINIMAL EFFORT. That is what makes us MAD.


You are making the same mistake as many others made before you. The number of t2 bpo's that make huge profits, is very limited. These are some of the hac bpo's, the notorious cap recharger II bpo, the cloak bpo, and I'm sure I've missed a few.

If you were to make a graph with on the vertical the profits to be made off a bpo, and on the horizontal the number of bpo's that are able to make those profits, you'd get a curve that shows you that the majority of t2 bpo's aren't as profitable as you make them out to be.

If you don't believe me, you can get all the data out of the market screen, feel free to investigate this yourself before making unfounded claims.

Quote:
The reward is based on CONSTANT PLAYER EFFORT. The price alone is not what ****es people off about most t2 bpos. Its the fact that the players that own them did nothing to deserve them and do next to nothing to produce their isk.


Now, granted, the top few sellers might still look like a problem to you. What you fail to realize though, is that none of those were valued at the prices you mention, when they were first released. The people that hold them today, have for the most part aquired them not through luck, but through insight and hard work. Hard work to be able to afford to buy them off the lottery winners that were looking to make a quick buck, insight in order to buy the right ones. Which brings us back to your own statement, 'this is a game that emphasizes hard work and intelligence to reach goals'.

Ofcourse CCP has the power to change the mechanics concerning t2 bpo seeding. And I'm sure they would've made some big changes if they thought that the current mechanics were completely breaking the game. In stead, they opted to come with invention, which isn't really a big change, it's not going to have a huge effect on the whole t2 market. The conclusion you can draw from that is that CCP is generally happy with the t2 situation.

Quote:
Get it through your heads.


Yeah. I'm sure there will come a time when everyone agrees with your points. Probably around the same moment you stop being jealous of people that have used their abilities to make sure their financial future in Eve was secured.

Rick Dentill
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.11.09 13:50:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 09/11/2006 08:52:37
"The thought occured to me that the concept of T2 producers having a "license to print isk" because of their bpo is really silly. regardless of whether a manufacturer has their own pos or buys their materials from the market, the only isk that magically appears is from npcing, mission rewards etc etc. Ergo the T2 producers are in fact getting their isk from the people who do have said license, being anyone and everyone so the argument is flawed."


LMAO, what people will say to try to convince themselves this is okay.... comical. Okay here it goes you're arguement is 100% flawed and flat out silly. There is a difference between licence to print ISK and people gaining money from "out of no where" being npcing, missions, or mining, none of which is a licence to PRINT ISK. IE they have to work long and hard to make thier ISK. So infact the only ISK that magically appears for doing diddly squat is those with a solid t2 bpo, they do nothing and isk magically appears and LOTS of it. Amazing how badly you twist things to try to justify the current broked t2 bpo situation..... Yes grinding on NPC for hours while at risk is a licence to print isk HaHahahahah mkay! Next you gonna suggest mining veldpar for months is also a isk printing machine... wait you just said that...


Let's also point out on top of that everyone and ANYONE can go out and npc, mine , mission run, but not anyone and infact VERY VERY few priveldged can make t2 items... quite a large difference... and hence why it is a isk printing machine.


I was actually playing semantics but guess you missed that. The point I was making was that the isk they gain already exists. I guess you missed that too. Is the lottery unfair, yes. But then I never disputed that. Like I said, just semantics.

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:10:00 - [140]
 

Oh I can just feel the love in this room.

Just like there have been abrasive comments by supporters of the current system, its detractors too have resolved to making comments like calling t2 producers "a-holes" who sit on their asses all day and blaming us for everything that is wrong with EvE.

Just an FYI, a HAC costs abour 35-40 mil on average to produce. If I sold Muninns at 10X the cost it would be 350-400 mil, not the 100-120 I sell for. I also bought a Hobgoblin II bpo and dabbled with producing it. I released them for 80k a unit (they cost 45-50k to produce) and they did not sell well at all. I could not give them away. Now you a-holes are complaining that they are too expensive? I cut my losses and cashed out.

CCP created a system, we read about it, went mission running and played by the rules. It was CCP that made a HAC take 1.5 days to produce. We dont produce 10,000 a day, its 20 a month if we have a steady supply stream. And the BPOs are not owned by 8 people in the game!

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:52:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Rick Dentill
The thought occured to me that the concept of T2 producers having a "license to print isk" because of their bpo is really silly. regardless of whether a manufacturer has their own pos or buys their materials from the market, the only isk that magically appears is from npcing, mission rewards etc etc. Ergo the T2 producers are in fact getting their isk from the people who do have said license, being anyone and everyone so the argument is flawed.

Pretty much everyone except a noob to the subjust fully understands that the isk the T2 BPO owner gets is not created out of thin air but ultimately comes from players who worked to have the game reward them with isk.

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:58:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: slothe
Edited by: slothe on 09/11/2006 08:50:13
Originally by: Serpensis
Originally by: zeKzn
Actually, the market is an oligopoly, and no player has anything like a monopoly.


For one, as that seems to be your favourite way of putting things; one player now owns all the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPOs. Not monopoly, huh?

.


not true. i own 1 covert ops cloak bpo.

the only "problem" with t2 bpos is the fact there is limited supply, a fact that ccp always said there would be. the market works so that a price is found for the items to match the supply. limited items with high demand means high price.

simply prices are high to match the demand. its no more complicated than this.

lok at hacs for example. cerberus is a mission runners dream = high price. stababond = pvp dream = high price. muninn sucks = relatively low price.

whos to blame for the price difference ? - buyers not sellers.the pricesare so high as thats what people are prepared to pay for them.

get over it.

the only way its going tochange is if cp wishesthere to be a greater supply. why should there be? there meant to be limited items. it is as itshould be.

some are lucky some arent.

whinge about something else. lok at macrominers or complex farmers - their more of a problem.

the reality is with t2 bpos is that the system works as intended.

Please read the thread and come back when you have something which partains to the real issues to add. We understand supply and demand. The problem is too few people offer all the supply and thus yeild totally unfair rewards, while almost everyone else is paying though the nose to get a tiny peice of t2 fun. I agree that t2 should be expensive. I'm not asking for the total output of t2 items to be increase per day (but it migth help in some cases, since the player bae is growing). I'm asking for fewer people to hold all the fun. Do this by giving as many BPCs per week in the lotto as modules could be made using t2 bpos at full production.

Now the same supply exists but waaay more people share in it. Price remains roughly the same, goes down for the uber over expensive items, and now instead of 1% of the people having 80% of the wealth in the game (made up numbers) 20% of the people have 70% of the wealth, and no one person sits in a station for 3 real years in a row gaining 300m isk per day just for a few right clicks.

Primaxin
Gallente
104th Ranger Mobile Combat Regiment
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:00:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Primaxin on 09/11/2006 16:14:55
Hit enter key by accident; moderator please delete this.

Da Death
Minmatar
Relentless Enterprises
Ore Federation
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:01:00 - [144]
 

I dont see anything wrong with CCP's system. I am fine with my twelve T2 BPO's

Perani
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:13:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: slothe
simply prices are high to match the demand. its no more complicated than this.


__This has been rehashed so many times, but some people just don't consider this: Supply and and demand do not work to drive prices to equilibrium when there is a monopoly or collusion. I will say it again... or maybe I won't. *sigh* When the demand for a certain product is high, in the short term, prices go up because manufacturers can charge a premium and maximize profit. What this game is missing (and hopefully fixed with inventions) is the long term: in the long term, more entrepreneurs are going to enter the sector and produce the same product due to the perceived profit margin. This will increase supply and eventually drive the prices to equilibrium. It is more complicated than "this".

Originally by: slothe
whinge about something else. lok at macrominers or complex farmers - their more of a problem. reality is with t2 bpos is that the system works as intended.


__Why do some people macromine in the first place? Oh, I dunno... maybe because things are overpriced and some want to afford them, so there created a demand (there is probably always a demand, but this certainly makes it higher) for ISK, and macrominers came in to fill that void. On the other hand, click build at a station is quite automated itself, isn't it? Macro-builders?

Primaxin
Gallente
104th Ranger Mobile Combat Regiment
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:13:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: slothe
Edited by: slothe on 09/11/2006 08:50:13
Originally by: Serpensis
Originally by: zeKzn
Actually, the market is an oligopoly, and no player has anything like a monopoly.


For one, as that seems to be your favourite way of putting things; one player now owns all the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPOs. Not monopoly, huh?

.


not true. i own 1 covert ops cloak bpo.

the only "problem" with t2 bpos is the fact there is limited supply, a fact that ccp always said there would be. the market works so that a price is found for the items to match the supply. limited items with high demand means high price.

simply prices are high to match the demand. its no more complicated than this.

lok at hacs for example. cerberus is a mission runners dream = high price. stababond = pvp dream = high price. muninn sucks = relatively low price.

whos to blame for the price difference ? - buyers not sellers.the pricesare so high as thats what people are prepared to pay for them.

get over it.

the only way its going tochange is if cp wishesthere to be a greater supply. why should there be? there meant to be limited items. it is as itshould be.

some are lucky some arent.

whinge about something else. lok at macrominers or complex farmers - their more of a problem.

the reality is with t2 bpos is that the system works as intended.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh really?

Did it work as intended when HAC BPO's were first seeded, and a Cerberus cost, for example maybe 75M? Or is it working better now that a Cerberus costs 275M? Which price did CCP intend? It can't be both.

Whatever CCP intended originally, they have clearly not updated the number of BPO's to reflect the increase in player population, and the increase in average player skills. Demand keeps going up and there is zero change in supply, so of course prices rise for desirable T2 items. The price is set by the INTERPLAY of supply and demand, not either one individually. The fact that some T2 items are not very desirable is irrelevant to this conversation.

So why has CCP neglected to increase the supply of T2 items? Either they just kind of forgot about it or became pre-occupied with other issues (China, Kali, etc), or they felt that the original prices of the T2 items were too low and they're happy to see them go through the roof (I've seen no evidence from any dev quote to support this, but it's still possible). If the latter case, then it's very difficult to disagree with the person who earlier stated that luck on such a scale should not be a game mechanic. That kind of luck, where one lucky BPO draw sets you and your friends and corp up with tremendous advantages over everyone else, seems completely out of place in this game. It would be kind of like playing a sport against competitors who had the resources to hire the best professionals in the world to compete against you and your friends; how much fun would that be?

Fortunately it appears CCP is aware that this is a problem. Unfortunately, it's not at all clear yet whether the planned "fix" will help much.

JJZ

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:19:00 - [147]
 

"There are only a few bpo's out there that are worth 70 billion. None of those were worth 70 billion when they were given out in the lottery."

Yeah, I know. I fully understand this. I never said "all t2 bpo owners. I dont care about the owner of the small explosive smart bomb or the small energy transfer array, and hundreds of others. Even if there was only one T2 BPO that gave its own billions of isk per month I'd still have posted in the same manner, taking out the pluralization of course.


"Unworthy? Supreme mega-billionaire? I'm starting to spot a tendency to exagerate in your post."

They ARE unworthy (luck does not a worthy person make). They ARE supreme mega-billionaries. Literally. (Note: I know not all or even most T2 BPO owners are billionaries.)

"You are making the same mistake as many others made before you. The number of t2 bpo's that make huge profits, is very limited. These are some of the hac bpo's, the notorious cap recharger II bpo, the cloak bpo, and I'm sure I've missed a few."

Yep I know.

"If you were to make a graph with on the vertical the profits to be made off a bpo, and on the horizontal the number of bpo's that are able to make those profits, you'd get a curve that shows you that the majority of t2 bpo's aren't as profitable as you make them out to be."

Yeah. I know already. BTW, If you were to make a graph with on vertical the reward to be made off a high-end bpo, and on the horizontal the work/risk it took to acquire said bpo, you'd get ****ING ****ED OFF WHEN YOU SAW HOW ****ING EASY IT WAS AND HOW ****ING RICH THE ******* IS WHO OWNS THE BPO.

"If you don't believe me, you can get all the data out of the market screen, feel free to investigate this yourself before making unfounded claims."

If you dont understand by now that you used a single argument (a wrong one btw, one I was already 100% aware of) to try to counter a solid argument from me, feel free to read this thread again and get it through your head.

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:24:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Jacque Custeau
Oh I can just feel the love in this room.

Just like there have been abrasive comments by supporters of the current system, its detractors too have resolved to making comments like calling t2 producers "a-holes" who sit on their asses all day and blaming us for everything that is wrong with EvE.

CCP created a system, we read about it, went mission running and played by the rules. It was CCP that made a HAC take 1.5 days to produce. We dont produce 10,000 a day, its 20 a month if we have a steady supply stream. And the BPOs are not owned by 8 people in the game!

Yeah. Most of us know its not the T2 producers faults. Its CCPs fault. We just get psised off at you when you dont realize this, and whne you give lame reasons why it is OK for you to be so rich for such minimal effort and risk.

(This applies to the ultra rich t2 bpo owners, not all t2 bpo owners (I have to make disclaimers like this so some silly guy wont come in here and act like everything I'vesaid in this thread is wrong because not all T2 bpo owners make uber isk, only some do (which, of course, I already know.)))

Perani
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:40:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Darcie Wray
Yeah. Most of us know its not the T2 producers faults. Its CCPs fault. We just get psised off at you when you dont realize this, and whne [sic] you give lame reasons why it is OK for you to be so rich for such minimal effort and risk.


Dude, this should have been on the front page, in the first post! Very Happy

Darcie Wray
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:47:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Perani
Originally by: Darcie Wray
Yeah. Most of us know its not the T2 producers faults. Its CCPs fault. We just get psised off at you when you dont realize this, and whne [sic] you give lame reasons why it is OK for you to be so rich for such minimal effort and risk.


Dude, this should have been on the front page, in the first post! Very Happy

You inspired me to read the first post again, and while the OP did not say it in as few words as I did, the whole point of his thread was that CCP created an unfair system and CCP needs to change it. So the OPs post does, in effect, say what mine just did.


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