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blankseplocked STUFF Profits for October: 5,420,475,685.42 ISK
 
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Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:46:00 - [31]
 

Well i thinks it good idea nice work, if i ever win the lotto i might just be tempteed to come your way.

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:02:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

And what is this about "lack of full disclosure"? You ask me a question, and I will answer it.


OK. How much did you pay your member corporations for:
1. Taranis
2. 100mn MWD 2
3. Sensor Booster 2
4. Standard Missile Launcher 2

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:25:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 16:25:33
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Dark Shikari

And what is this about "lack of full disclosure"? You ask me a question, and I will answer it.


OK. How much did you pay your member corporations for:
1. Taranis
2. 100mn MWD 2
3. Sensor Booster 2
4. Standard Missile Launcher 2

I don't know off-hand, as I'm not at home and thus don't have the spreadsheet with me. But I'm guessing, roughly (note, I am posting what I last paid the corporations for, not what I would pay them now--prices change on a day-to-day basis):

Taranis: 13.2m or so (Jita price used to be higher, but I'm now selling these nearly at a loss, and price hit 13 million today).

100mn MWD II: 4.6m or so (The price of these has been up and down lately... I've seen it as high as 6m and as low as 4.3m... so some profits and some losses. Quite volatile)

Sensor Booster II: 4.3m or so (When I bought these the Jita price was 4.6m, but its now fallen to 4.3m, so STUFF is making a bare breakeven)

Standard Missile Launcher II: 900k or so. (When I bought my last batch from H-TI, the going price was 1.05m or so... but it is now down to 875k and I am again making a loss.)

You actually picked quite a bad bunch of items for STUFF's profit Razz

Stoick Furious
Posted - 2006.11.03 18:22:00 - [34]
 

First of all I donít think that anyone in this thread has flamed you. You posted a promotional video and used colorful text and language etc. to essentially post an advertisement designed to solicit new customers to your business concept.

I, as a potential customer, raised the issue that what youíre essentially doing is creating sell orders and there is absolutely nothing stopping your customer corporations from doing the same without paying your fee. That statement and the ones Iíve made previously are not flames. They are the statements of truth based on your information.

Nobody here has stated that you are not making money or that you are running a bad business. You seem to be running a very brisk business and have made, by your own admission over 500 million in personal salary.

Now I wonít put words into your mouth but I donít believe that you think you are the best economic and market manipulator in the game. If you do, thatís fine maybe you should create a promotional video for it. If you -donít- believe that you are a far superior trader then even you will agree that corporations with a person as market savvy as you with the same amount of time would make more money selling their merchandise themselves. Presumably they wouldnít agree to a 500 million isk salary leaving more in their own pocket.

Secondly the term ďfull disclosureĒ refers to giving investors all of the information. Not just the information that they remember to ask for specifically. I donít mean this to mean you havenít been honest, I mean it in reference to this quote:

Originally by: Dark Shikari
You flame me for "lack of full disclosure" yet you still haven't asked me to disclose anything--your post is meaningless.


This doesnít make sense. If someone has to ask about information that is not openly available without specifically requesting it then there has not been full disclosure. The previous poster was right, there has not been full disclosure. You should be instead debating him as to whether or not itís necessary in this case.

The only person who seems to be flaming this thread is you. As a suggestion, maybe you should use a portion of your 500 million salary to sub-contract someone with a background in communications. You have to be able to deal with questions if youíre going to post advertisements on the forums. If you canít, then you probably shouldnít post advertisements.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 18:32:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 18:52:26
Originally by: Stoick Furious
I, as a potential customer

You are not a potential customer. You are an alt. "Potential customers" are large corporations with a significant fraction of a trillion ISK in blueprints (for major customers) or small corporations/individuals with a few good BPOs worth at least a few tens of billions (for minor customers). These potential customers seem to, at the moment, from my recent convos and evemails, to be quite happy with the business as it is. If you really are a potential customer, post with your main and demonstrate that fact.

I don't cater to alts. I cater to customers. This is what my customers, at the moment, want.

If you had 200 billion ISK in blueprints, I might give your opinion a bit more weight. But I am not willing to risk the satisfaction of my current customers to make an alt agree with me.

Researching Princess
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:16:00 - [36]
 

Poor DS getting flamed by all the alts. BTW , I am an alt but my main is Ricdic. I think you guys should leave him alone. Point being that his actual clients are happy, and havent shown a drop of discontent in this thread.

DS has a service, and while it 'may' result in a lower profit at the end of the month, it also reduces workload and gives DS a chance to manipulate the market (which is definetly possible, and can be relatively easy with t2). So while a client may be only getting 90% in the initial months, he may ultimately begin recieving 140% after the market has been played with enough.

I don't know the inner-workings of the business, or even if the above is correct, but that is the way I interpret it. And if I am not mistaken, all bpo owners have a 'pooled' income. Meaning that if ie 50 ishtars don't sell well one month, but 50 eagles sell great (2 different owners), regardless both owners are still profiting off it, the only one being affected is DS, who would cut his losses, and work at improving that price again, not buying the ishtars in the next purchase, or negotiating a much lower deal to assure this item doesnt regularly under-perform.

Stoick Furious
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:16:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Stoick Furious on 03/11/2006 19:19:04
I'm not an alt. I don't know how one goes about proving they're not an alt but there doesn't appear to be any motivation for me to pretend to be so.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. In fact I don't recall stating an opinion that you or anyone else could agree or disagree with. I made suggestions, designed to help you better communicate your concept.

All I've done is ask questions and try and figure out the appeal of your business. If I were you and again this is just a suggestion, you should spend more time explaining why someone would pay you 500 million to sell their stuff and less time worrying about what I think of your business on an investment level.

You may not believe that little ol' me is worth answering because you don't believe I control the assets and capital that will help your business but this is a public forum and the people you're targeting see my posts as well and may be thinking the same way I am.

You've stated several times its because they make more money selling stuff through you. If that's the case you would clear up a lot of the controversy by proving that you have made whatever they likely would have made on the market themselves PLUS your 500 million isk salary.

If you can't defend business decisions then you should consider refraining from posting advertisements on the market forum. Nobody is suggesting yuor current customers aren't happy but this public post doesn't seem to be aimed at your private investors. It's an advertisement.

This seems to be a forum where people are interested in explanations, real data and projections not just promotional videos and animated gifs.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:21:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 19:22:42
Originally by: Stoick Furious

All I've done is ask questions and try and figure out the appeal of your business. If I were you and again this is just a suggestion, you should spend more time explaining why someone would pay you 500 million to sell their stuff and less time worrying about what I think of your business on an investment level.

...

This seems to be a forum where people are interested in explanations, real data and projections

I can't seem to find what questions you're trying to ask.

State your questions clearly and simply (example of a clear and simple question), and I will attempt to answer them. As long as you cover your queries with fancy rhetoric, I will not respond.

Stoick Furious
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:33:00 - [39]
 

My question, clearly stated is:

Do you have any data, evidence or proof that suggests that your business model, after taking into account your personal salary, provides more or even equal value to a corporation selling its own ships/modules/equipment?

In short, without the rhetoric, does your business have any benefit to corporations with steady selling merchandise, who sell themselves?

Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:58:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Stoick Furious
My question, clearly stated is:

Do you have any data, evidence or proof that suggests that your business model, after taking into account your personal salary, provides more or even equal value to a corporation selling its own ships/modules/equipment?

In short, without the rhetoric, does your business have any benefit to corporations with steady selling merchandise, who sell themselves?


Do you actually need DS to answer this question for you? Isn't the fact that the investors/partners/clients (any term is valid) of STUFF are happy with the service they're recieving? Do you think the heads of these corporations aren't smart enough to do their own marketeering? Do you think that Dark Shikari is pulling a fast one on them? All of them?

In other news, any information DS gives to you/us (or any non-investors) is to explain his service to potential clients.

Insisting that he tell you "how do you do this? how do you do that?" is right up there with asking a market trader "what do you make money buying and selling and where are your trade routes?" DS is perfectly within his rights to conceal any trade secrets to outsiders. In fact, as someone with a large amount of his wealth invested in one of STUFF's clients, I hope he keeps all of his secrets to himself.

Phoenix Pryde
Caldari
3-I Area 42
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:07:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Phoenix Pryde on 03/11/2006 20:06:48
omg, LOL.

Stoick, you miss the point entirely. For some producers its not just about maxing their income, but about minimizing their effort. They gladly accept a little cut in profit for not having to bother about sales. And DS cut in that isnt exactly big. Both parties profit, one saves time and effort, DS makes some pocket money with doing what he likes ... marketing and selling :P


If you only care about maximising your profits and you have the will and time to do your sales on your own then its quite likely you wont do worse then DS and probably make a little more for yourself even.

I dont think DS claimed anywhere he could sell for more then anybody else ... :P



Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:10:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 20:12:03
Originally by: Stoick Furious
My question, clearly stated is:

Do you have any data, evidence or proof that suggests that your business model, after taking into account your personal salary, provides more or even equal value to a corporation selling its own ships/modules/equipment?

In short, without the rhetoric, does your business have any benefit to corporations with steady selling merchandise, who sell themselves?

Well this is a hard question to answer, as there is no way of knowing what would have happened on the market had I not done what I did.

The calculation that would have to be made is whether over the course of the month the profits STUFF made that would not have been made doing raw selling exceed my salary. So I'll add up some anecdotal evidence and see what I get.

The total T2 sold during the month was probably between 35 and 45 billion.

I will give some examples of market manipulation:

Standard Missile II, 700k to 1.15m for 300 launchers, then more launchers as the price fell back.
Photon Scattering Field II, 5m to 6.5m for about 300 fields.
150mm Light Autocannon II, 300k to 600k for about 300 autocannons.
Light Neutron Blaster II, 700k to about 1.35m for about 300 blasters, then more blasters as the price slowly fell back.
Taranis, kept the price at 16m for quite a while even as the market fell to 15m, then 14m, then 13m.
Ares: got the price as high as 7m and kept it well above 5m.

If you do the math, the profit earned via these manipulation is somewhat greater than my salary, which implies that STUFF did in fact provide benefit to the corporations other than saving them an hour of work a day.

But honestly, the difference is pennies. Does it really matter whether I can make 1% less or 1% more than anyone else? The difference made, for example, by running a POS to produce, is far greater. The real reason why corporations use STUFF is to offload the trouble of selling, constant undercutting, and all the difficulties that go along with selling in a hub. The fact that they might get a bit more cash in return is a side effect that I doubt they consider important.

Shin Ra
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:11:00 - [43]
 

This is obviously a scam by BOB using their alts to built trust in a fake entity before releasing a 300 bil IPO and ripping everyone off.

This Dark Shikari dude looks like an alt too. ugh

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:37:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Shin Ra
This Dark Shikari dude looks like an alt too. ugh

Everyone knows I'm Blacklight's alt. And Seleene is my alt too. All detail can be found here.

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.04 13:12:00 - [45]
 

What was your total revenue for that month?
What was your profit margin basically?

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.04 13:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Rthor
What was your total revenue for that month?
What was your profit margin basically?

That would be hard to calculate... but I guess I could do it roughly by adding up all the wallet transfers to member corporations. I wish there was a wallet export.

Our profit margin is set by our formulas in our Excel sheet, but obviously it doesn't end up exactly as predicting due to price rise and fall. And of course there's market fees.

I'll see if I can get you some rough numbers.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.04 13:46:00 - [47]
 

Yeah I can't really count it... there's like 300 withdrawals to add up and I really don't feel like doing that.

But I can give a very rough value.

On average, I probably withdrew 1-1.5b a day over the past week or two, but before that it was less (due to fewer corporations). In addition, early in the month, corporations were buying shares with their products (at least those that didn't have cash on hand), and thus very little ISK was being transferred.

I'll bet for the first 2 weeks of the month that on average 400m was transferred a day, and during the second 2 weeks, 1.2b a day (obviously the transition wasn't instant, but its roughly accurate). Adding that to the 13.34b in shares would give about 35740m ISK.

Shiva Shakti
Gallente
Hi-Tech Industries
Posted - 2006.11.05 00:09:00 - [48]
 

Good work Dark

Thanks for the timely reporting...and its nice to see healthy dividends...its a good idea and one that has already had a positive effect on the eve Game stock exchange :)

Also frees up lots of our time to do other stuff

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.05 01:57:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Shiva Shakti
Good work Dark

Thanks for the timely reporting...and its nice to see healthy dividends...its a good idea and one that has already had a positive effect on the eve Game stock exchange :)

Also frees up lots of our time to do other stuff

By the way, since this thread, I have had two minor players and one minor corporation member join, for a total of 6 new blueprints. Razz

Madral
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.11.05 16:28:00 - [50]
 

I'd like to know:

how many items do you sell where there is more then one BPO in the hands of the consortium? (Only Modules and Ships, not ammo). How many of the given BPOs of one item do you control?


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.05 16:46:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Madral
how many items do you sell where there is more then one BPO in the hands of the consortium? (Only Modules and Ships, not ammo). How many of the given BPOs of one item do you control?

Only a couple.

Here are the ones we have two of (there are none we have three of). I might as well include the ammo:

Currently: Void M, Ares
With the new members planning to sign up: Dual Light Beam Laser II, Medium Pulse Laser II
With Driven's portfolio (also planning to sign up):
150mm Autocannon II, 720mm Artillery II, Tremor L, Tremor S, Barrage M, Barrage S, Quake M, Quake S, Hail M, Hail S, Light Neutron Blaster II, Spike L, Spike S, Javelin S, Void L, Void S, Null S, Scorch M, Scorch S, Aurora M, Aurora S, Gleam S,Bloodclaw Fury,Widowmaker Prec,Medium Cap Battery II,Remote Sensor Damper II,Miner II,Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Void M (note we will have 3 Void Ms with this)

Gavin Kineli
Cross Roads
Ouroboros Cross Combine
Posted - 2006.11.05 21:00:00 - [52]
 

All you people are missing the point. Let me explain what happened.

1) EMFI tells me that Dark Shikari would like to join AATP as chief of sales or whatever
2) I tell him no for a few reasons (trust WASN'T one of them), but we still wanted him involved with us
3) We decide that a 2nd party sales corp would be a better idea (selling more than just AATP)
4) STUFF is formed with Dark running it

But you see, we're not losing any money on this at all. As a member of AATP, he would've been paid salary. He gets paid salary here anyway. AATP/EMFI own a large stake in STUFF, and get that 10% profit back as dividends anyway (Into the AATP wallet).

So what is the problem?

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.05 21:54:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Gavin Kineli
All you people are missing the point. Let me explain what happened.

1) EMFI tells me that Dark Shikari would like to join AATP as chief of sales or whatever
2) I tell him no for a few reasons (trust WASN'T one of them), but we still wanted him involved with us
3) We decide that a 2nd party sales corp would be a better idea (selling more than just AATP)
4) STUFF is formed with Dark running it

But you see, we're not losing any money on this at all. As a member of AATP, he would've been paid salary. He gets paid salary here anyway. AATP/EMFI own a large stake in STUFF, and get that 10% profit back as dividends anyway (Into the AATP wallet).


Actually, all I told EMFI I wanted was an alt for auditing purposes, at least as far as I remember. But maybe I'm wrong.
Originally by: Gavin Kineli
So what is the problem?

Nothing, really, just a few silly alts Razz

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.06 02:30:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Rthor on 06/11/2006 02:32:01
I think that you should figure out what your profit margin was and use that ratio to show how successful you were. As in, you bought something for 1 million and you sold it for 2 million then you made a million. Of course if you bought something from some member corporation for a price that is below average then you could claim that you are a great businessman but in reality your results could be artificially inflated in this way. It would not hurt that corporation to sell to your for low price since they get those profits back via shares. But it could be done to attract new corporations to the scheme by artifically boosting your results.

Also if you sold a **** load of stuff over a period of 1 month and you generated billions in profit but you did it by price cutting, which would be evidenced by low profit margin, then that also is not all that impressive even though you could present it, as you have had, a great success when you just focus on presenting profit and neglect showing revenue.

I bet you that decent resellers have 20%+ profit margins or much better and if your profit margin is 5 percent then no amount of financial engineering will get you any respect from people who are in your line of work. So you should know yourself, and I am sure that you know, what your profit margin is and this is what you should present and not omit/hide. From partial info that you have supplied it's not clear how you did.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.06 02:47:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Rthor
I bet you that decent resellers have 20%+ profit margins or much better and if your profit margin is 5 percent then no amount of financial engineering will get you any respect from people who are in your line of work. So you should know yourself, and I am sure that you know, what your profit margin is and this is what you should present and not omit/hide. From partial info that you have supplied it's not clear how you did.

By definition, resellers who make 20%+ are buying underpriced items.

We don't do that. We respect our customers and believe they should get paid reasonable prices.

Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
Posted - 2006.11.06 09:47:00 - [56]
 

How much would you pay for each Eris?

Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
Posted - 2006.11.06 11:03:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Shin Ra
This is obviously a scam by BOB using their alts to built trust in a fake entity before releasing a 300 bil IPO and ripping everyone off.

This Dark Shikari dude looks like an alt too. ugh


Who told?! Embarassed

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.06 12:31:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rthor
I bet you that decent resellers have 20%+ profit margins or much better and if your profit margin is 5 percent then no amount of financial engineering will get you any respect from people who are in your line of work. So you should know yourself, and I am sure that you know, what your profit margin is and this is what you should present and not omit/hide. From partial info that you have supplied it's not clear how you did.

By definition, resellers who make 20%+ are buying underpriced items.

We don't do that. We respect our customers and believe they should get paid reasonable prices.


You dont buy from your customers. Look it up. Your customers buy from you by definition.

Your inability to determine who is who in relationship to you in your scheme just shows again how unnecessarily convoluted it is.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.06 14:54:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 06/11/2006 14:57:01
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rthor
I bet you that decent resellers have 20%+ profit margins or much better and if your profit margin is 5 percent then no amount of financial engineering will get you any respect from people who are in your line of work. So you should know yourself, and I am sure that you know, what your profit margin is and this is what you should present and not omit/hide. From partial info that you have supplied it's not clear how you did.

By definition, resellers who make 20%+ are buying underpriced items.

We don't do that. We respect our customers and believe they should get paid reasonable prices.


You dont buy from your customers. Look it up. Your customers buy from you by definition.

Your inability to determine who is who in relationship to you in your scheme just shows again how unnecessarily convoluted it is.

STUFF offers a service: reselling for T2 corporations. Our customers are those who take part in that service.

You may not understand how a business works, but that doesn't give you the right to flame it out of your own ignorance.

You still are making absolutely no sense. Our scheme is simple: We buy from T2 production corporations and resell on market. If you cannot understand something that simplistic, you should give up and go back to mission running.

Our customers are the people who we work for, by definition. We do not work for the people who buy T2 items in Jita. We work for the people who sell T2 items. They are our customers. This is not hard to understand.

Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
Posted - 2006.11.06 15:33:00 - [60]
 

Quote:
We buy from T2 production corporations and resell on market.


Yes, I see... but.

Originally by: Steven Dynahir
How much would you pay for each Eris?



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