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kagrack
Gallente
The Highland Guardsmen
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:25:00 - [1]
 

while i was looking through the new rig blueprints i came accross one that -15% of your energy turrets cap and it got me thinking maybe there is a reason the abaddon is like it is maybe ccp made it like that so we can choose weather or not we'd prefer a full gank setup on it i.e. designed to fire for a very short time yet maximising damage using the new rigs or a more fleet able ship using rigs to lessen the cap usage of are lasers?

Reite
Art of War
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:26:00 - [2]
 

Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:29:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: kagrack
while i was looking through the new rig blueprints i came accross one that -15% of your energy turrets cap and it got me thinking maybe there is a reason the abaddon is like it is maybe ccp made it like that so we can choose weather or not we'd prefer a full gank setup on it i.e. designed to fire for a very short time yet maximising damage using the new rigs or a more fleet able ship using rigs to lessen the cap usage of are lasers?



See, this is why people with no or little experience with Amarr should be gagged on Amarr issues.

Dupac
Subite
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:32:00 - [4]
 

I wish people would stop saying "use rigs" on the abaddon, all the other ships get rigs too, it's not like the abaddon gets an advantage there.

Using rigs to make up for the obvious shortcomings of this ship just brings it into line with the other tier three ships, who still have their rig slots free.

Arimai
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:06:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dupac
I wish people would stop saying "use rigs" on the abaddon, all the other ships get rigs too, it's not like the abaddon gets an advantage there.

Using rigs to make up for the obvious shortcomings of this ship just brings it into line with the other tier three ships, who still have their rig slots free.



And most people do *not* consider the price of rigs.
Best rigs wont be cheap. I'm guesstimating a 25-30M price tag for each one.

chaos98
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Arimai
Originally by: Dupac
I wish people would stop saying "use rigs" on the abaddon, all the other ships get rigs too, it's not like the abaddon gets an advantage there.

Using rigs to make up for the obvious shortcomings of this ship just brings it into line with the other tier three ships, who still have their rig slots free.



And most people do *not* consider the price of rigs.
Best rigs wont be cheap. I'm guesstimating a 25-30M price tag for each one.


i tried to insure an abbadon yesterday, came up with 180 mil payout on platinum. When you consider that spending another 75 mil on rigs doesn't seem like much.

Dupac
Subite
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:24:00 - [7]
 

It seems like a lot hen I can buy and fit a geddon for the insurance costs alone, have similar damage and not run out of cap.

Sonorra Baki
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:38:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Sonorra Baki on 26/10/2006 10:49:11
Moved my post to another amarr thread:

Tash Murkon
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:47:00 - [9]
 

And the guy in charge for all that thinks it's still okay
get a ****ing clue, you know who you are

CptEagle
Gallente
Genius Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:54:00 - [10]
 

Changing the RoF bonus to a damage bonus will only decrease dps by a tiny bit, but it will decrease cap use a good bit.

Good idea?

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:56:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: CptEagle
Changing the RoF bonus to a damage bonus will only decrease dps by a tiny bit, but it will decrease cap use a good bit.

Good idea?

It would increase alpha strike by quite a bit.
I wouldn't mind that but I know a whole minmatar army who would. Razz

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:58:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: CptEagle
Changing the RoF bonus to a damage bonus will only decrease dps by a tiny bit, but it will decrease cap use a good bit.

Good idea?


I would prefer this kind of bonus.

Aquila Lightwielder
N.A.G.A Corporation
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Originally by: CptEagle
Changing the RoF bonus to a damage bonus will only decrease dps by a tiny bit, but it will decrease cap use a good bit.

Good idea?


I would prefer this kind of bonus.

Signed

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...


geddon have much less powergrid than abaddon so isnt that easy to fit turret rigs. you will need rcu in geddon but not in abaddon

DarK
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:08:00 - [15]
 

Perhaps they could also release the tech2 large cap battery and the XL battery & II(as used to be listed in db)

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sniser
geddon have much less powergrid than abaddon so isnt that easy to fit turret rigs. you will need rcu in geddon but not in abaddon

So either the abaddon just made the armageddon obsolete or the abaddon has no purpose over the geddon.
Great choice we have here. Neutral

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:10:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Turret rigs have the drawback of +10% powergrid requirement on all turrets.
Capacitor rigs have no drawbacks.

Aloysius Knight
Minmatar
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:11:00 - [18]
 

after just testing this ship, holy cap drine batman!

this thing badly needs that cap drain fixed

Reite
Art of War
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:49:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Turret rigs have the drawback of +10% powergrid requirement on all turrets.
Capacitor rigs have no drawbacks.


If an arma fits 1 +15% rof rig and 1 +15% dmg rig its guns will use 20% more pg for a total of 2970PG pr gun. 7 Guns will then use 20790PG. With a RCU2 an armageddon has a total of 23718PG.

This means the arma with those two rigs will do alot more dmg than a abbadon with 1 cap rig and 1 rof rig.

Ofcourse its a different matter on longrange guns, but unless the abbadon got a extra rig slot compared to everyone else its pretty unfair to have to fit a cap rig just to be able to shoot for more than a minute or two.

Yamaeda
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:58:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: CptEagle
Changing the RoF bonus to a damage bonus will only decrease dps by a tiny bit, but it will decrease cap use a good bit.

Good idea?

It would increase alpha strike by quite a bit.
I wouldn't mind that but I know a whole minmatar army who would. Razz


I've calculated on it, it'd put the Abaddon with tachs close, but not above, the minnies in alpha strike. It'll lower the dps with 7% compared to the RoF-bonus while saving 25% cap/minute.

It'd still have cap problems making it "gank or tank" as the designers want.

Above else it'll give it a clearer and different role from Arma and Apoc.

I really want such a change, it's the logical and sane thing to do.
/Y

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:58:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Turret rigs have the drawback of +10% powergrid requirement on all turrets.
Capacitor rigs have no drawbacks.


its 5% drawback with skills

Scordite
Posted - 2006.10.26 13:56:00 - [22]
 

-15% cap use of guns.

Not even considering the problems with other ships being able to fit rigs as well.. Do you seriously think -15% cap use of guns is enough to make the ship work?

Magunus
The Forsakened Few
Green Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 14:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Reite
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Turret rigs have the drawback of +10% powergrid requirement on all turrets.
Capacitor rigs have no drawbacks.


If an arma fits 1 +15% rof rig and 1 +15% dmg rig its guns will use 20% more pg for a total of 2970PG pr gun. 7 Guns will then use 20790PG. With a RCU2 an armageddon has a total of 23718PG.

This means the arma with those two rigs will do alot more dmg than a abbadon with 1 cap rig and 1 rof rig.

Ofcourse its a different matter on longrange guns, but unless the abbadon got a extra rig slot compared to everyone else its pretty unfair to have to fit a cap rig just to be able to shoot for more than a minute or two.


Yeah, but we only know how many rig slots the ships have, not how many calibration points. As an example, maybe the arma can only fit those two tech 1 rigs, or 3 rigs that aren't even that useful, while the abaddon could fit those two rigs in the tech 2 version, plus a third that increases cap or something. I'm betting that the higher tier battleships will be able to fit more and better rigs.


Reite
Art of War
Posted - 2006.10.26 15:26:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Magunus
Originally by: Reite
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Reite
Well where the abbadon use cap rigs the geddon can use dmg rigs and still be more usefull than the abbadon...

Turret rigs have the drawback of +10% powergrid requirement on all turrets.
Capacitor rigs have no drawbacks.


If an arma fits 1 +15% rof rig and 1 +15% dmg rig its guns will use 20% more pg for a total of 2970PG pr gun. 7 Guns will then use 20790PG. With a RCU2 an armageddon has a total of 23718PG.

This means the arma with those two rigs will do alot more dmg than a abbadon with 1 cap rig and 1 rof rig.

Ofcourse its a different matter on longrange guns, but unless the abbadon got a extra rig slot compared to everyone else its pretty unfair to have to fit a cap rig just to be able to shoot for more than a minute or two.


Yeah, but we only know how many rig slots the ships have, not how many calibration points. As an example, maybe the arma can only fit those two tech 1 rigs, or 3 rigs that aren't even that useful, while the abaddon could fit those two rigs in the tech 2 version, plus a third that increases cap or something. I'm betting that the higher tier battleships will be able to fit more and better rigs.




If thats the case then that is stupid too. Do amarr have to pay a extra 10-50mill(I have no idea how much they are gonna cost tbh) Just to be able to use the ship? And ships die so fast in fleetbattles that this, if it is any expensive at all, isnt worth it.

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 15:32:00 - [25]
 

I wouldn't mind keeping the ROF bonus, because that is what amarr are known for. Ships with RoF boni. Has a sort of originality to it Wink

Now, if you don't want to change that to fix the Abbadon, lasers themselves need to be completely reworked or the Abbadon's cap increased.. a lot.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.26 15:40:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Magunus


Yeah, but we only know how many rig slots the ships have, not how many calibration points. As an example, maybe the arma can only fit those two tech 1 rigs, or 3 rigs that aren't even that useful, while the abaddon could fit those two rigs in the tech 2 version, plus a third that increases cap or something. I'm betting that the higher tier battleships will be able to fit more and better rigs.





First of all your name is spelled wrong, its supposed to be MAGNUS. Unless you have a relalt crappy imagination.


Considering your post I think its the latter.

What if/what if argumetns doesnt belong in these threads ok?

Magunus
The Forsakened Few
Green Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 17:53:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Magunus


Yeah, but we only know how many rig slots the ships have, not how many calibration points. As an example, maybe the arma can only fit those two tech 1 rigs, or 3 rigs that aren't even that useful, while the abaddon could fit those two rigs in the tech 2 version, plus a third that increases cap or something. I'm betting that the higher tier battleships will be able to fit more and better rigs.





First of all your name is spelled wrong, its supposed to be MAGNUS. Unless you have a relalt crappy imagination.


Considering your post I think its the latter.

What if/what if argumetns doesnt belong in these threads ok?


A) It based off an old Roman spelling. Besides the point, of course ... um. Godar.

B) 'What if' most certainly belongs here. You appear to be saying 'I will set it up this way, and if it doesn't work, it's the devs fault'. In fact, many of the posts in this very thread are nothing BUT 'what if's. What if you set it up this way? What if you do that?

Based on your response, it appears that you're not interested in any type of logical and adult discussion of the matter, though. I'll keep that in mind and completely ignore any suggestions or comments you make from this point on.

Anjor
Minmatar
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:26:00 - [28]
 

/signed

for a damage bonus over RoF bonus to help with the cap issue. Would also make it a nice Tach Alpha fleet boat.

Also when comparing whats wrong with something, never use something like rigs to balance it, you should not require an outside source that leaves 1 ship to a disadvantage to balance it against another. MMO's have fallen apart due to misguided issues like this.

I would further add that if it doesn't have a cap laser use bonus to give it a massive cap, or a high recharge rate to help combat against nos/laser use. Especially in the role of being nos'd and nearly defenseless against such a well exploited tactic. Yes I call it an exploited tactic as it uses very little way in sp and player skill.


Magunus
The Forsakened Few
Green Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:20:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Anjor
<snip>
Also when comparing whats wrong with something, never use something like rigs to balance it, you should not require an outside source that leaves 1 ship to a disadvantage to balance it against another. MMO's have fallen apart due to misguided issues like this.
<snip>



Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with this. This game has used modules to balance the game since it's inception. CPU, PG, slot layout, cap, cap recharge, ship bonuses... they're all balancing agents, not to mention the modules and weapons that each ship is designed to use via bonuses.

Right now, amarr and minmatar appear to be at the bottom of the pile. How to fix this? Well, they can't very well up the CPU or PG, there are limits, there. They could increase cap and recharge on this ship, but what about giving the players the option of deciding for themselves? Give them a new resource, like CPU and PG. We could call it... calibration points!

Caldari and Gallente could have the bottom of the barrel when it comes to calibration points, the minmatar the most because of their crap DOT and apparent ability to make ships out of whatever happens to be laying around, and amarr the next highest. There you have it. Minmatar have the lowest DOT, but you'll never know what kind of rigs he has fitted until it's too late. Is he using velocity rigs and autocannons? Damage rigs and artillery? Amarr have better DOT, and could have almost as many options as the minmatar do as far as rigs are concerned. You could use cap rigs and last longer, or damage rigs and build a super geddon.

Rigs really do appear to me just another way to balance and boost races without screwing up the game as a whole. Just add 'CP' (calibration points) to the old tried and true 'PG' and 'CPU' list.

Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Magunus
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Magunus


Yeah, but we only know how many rig slots the ships have, not how many calibration points. As an example, maybe the arma can only fit those two tech 1 rigs, or 3 rigs that aren't even that useful, while the abaddon could fit those two rigs in the tech 2 version, plus a third that increases cap or something. I'm betting that the higher tier battleships will be able to fit more and better rigs.





First of all your name is spelled wrong, its supposed to be MAGNUS. Unless you have a relalt crappy imagination.


Considering your post I think its the latter.

What if/what if argumetns doesnt belong in these threads ok?


A) It based off an old Roman spelling. Besides the point, of course ... um. Godar.

B) 'What if' most certainly belongs here. You appear to be saying 'I will set it up this way, and if it doesn't work, it's the devs fault'. In fact, many of the posts in this very thread are nothing BUT 'what if's. What if you set it up this way? What if you do that?

Based on your response, it appears that you're not interested in any type of logical and adult discussion of the matter, though. I'll keep that in mind and completely ignore any suggestions or comments you make from this point on.


A) off topic, it's Magnus in latin


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