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Firebyrd
Gallente
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:23:00 - [1]
 

All u IT people and everyone else, let me give u a detailed cause of lag..

Yes some is caused by the sever nodes crashing, and trying to keep up, but actually thats only a small percent of lag, most lag is generated not by CCP, but by everything and everyone inbetween CCP and ur computer...

doesnt matter if ur 56K dial-up, Broadband, T1, 1M...doesnt matter, cause u will never get the speeds they advertise, unless you live right next door..

In the USA we have a NEC(National Electric Code), that i have to follow, it cover electric, phone, cable, and data lines and their installation... i have to do 30 hrs per year of Continuing education to keep my liscense...

So let me tell you all a little secret.. o wait i all ready did, companies CAN NOT guarentee you the advertised speeds, in fact the further you live from the main server(routers) and so forth of your ISP the more the signal degrades, same with wi-fi, ccp cant find logs, guess where they got lost at... yep they degraded somewhere in the pipe..

I love this game but i also know that Lag is going to happen some bad some not so bad, but Hardware and Software upgrades on CCPs end and your computer end isnt always going to releave it...

that signal has to go thousands of miles to get to u across many climate changes, and old and worn out lines... even if u live in the UK near the servers, alot of places(most) have their lines going out of the servers for miles then it returns to the miles bake to the city to connect u, so yes u could live next door, and still not have a direct connection

remember every new software and hardware you buy, is already 6 months outdated

whats the purpose of this post, to show that not everything is CCPs or your personal comps fault

Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:26:00 - [2]
 

You took the time to type out this big post but you couldn't take the time to type "you" properly?

Miss CJB
Gallente
In White Suits
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:29:00 - [3]
 

i live in londen, and i still get lag,

believe it or not, there was a time, when there was no lag, right after they got the new server just after braking the 15k pcu

Insidi Us
Amarr
Lyptica
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:30:00 - [4]
 

Sorry, I can't take any "professional" seriously when they talk like a freshman in high school. If I wanted to make an informed post about a hot-button issue, using my educational and vocational expertise, I'd try to type out the full words, and use proper capitalization and punctuation.

Firebyrd
Gallente
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Miss CJB
i live in londen, and i still get lag,

believe it or not, there was a time, when there was no lag, right after they got the new server just after braking the 15k pcu


there was always lag, just not as noticable, and it was to point out that not all lag comes from CCP, and like i said many places their lines go for miles before it reaches ur connection, even if u lived within a mile of their server, u wont get the input speed of their output speed

Firebyrd
Gallente
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:35:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Firebyrd on 24/10/2006 13:36:45
thats the best u guys got... complain about grammar, come on i expected to be flamed worse then that... jeez

Come on i know you guys can Flame better.. My wife can do better combacks....Laughing

o yea this post wasnt really to flame anyone

Angxia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.24 13:38:00 - [7]
 

DOS > Ping CCPs IP > Packet Loss to and from = 0%

The lag is server side.

Grats on your NEC certs btw.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:20:00 - [8]
 

Funny, after a lag (15sec to activate modules) and doing an online test of my upload / download bandwidth I am getting upward for each 1200+kbps/1000kbps, but I guess it's not enough?

It's also funny that lag happens with 28K+ and up people on the server. Not to mention the nice message I get almost every time I try to log on weekends and happen to be in Motsu:

"You're #27 in queue"..

I like the game tho, hope Cali will solve some of the issues, if that is the case, remains to be seen.

DazWozUK
Caldari
Goodfellas holding corp
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:26:00 - [9]
 

In the case of EVE I believe the lag is due to the servers/nodes not able to keep up with the number of subscribers. When I first started playing eve lag didnít exist Id say itís only really started to be noticed in the past 12 months, and in these past 12 months itís got progressively worse.
If itís not the CCP servers then why is the lag worst on a Sunday night when the most number of players are online?

Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:41:00 - [10]
 

There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!

Firebyrd
Gallente
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Firebyrd on 24/10/2006 14:46:54
Edited by: Firebyrd on 24/10/2006 14:46:28
2 reasons that contribute to that,here is 2 analogies..

1. u have a 3" pipe, and a 1 " pipe, older lines r like that 1 " pipe, u cant stuff the same amount of water thru a 1 " that u can in a 3" pipe, today a lrger pipeline is whats needed.

2. in electric u have different gaged wire..and different types, copper conducts better then aluminum, and a #10(220)
conducts more then #14(110)

now most of europe is 220, but in USA we use 110 and 220 but mostly 110, so #14s get hotter faster and over heat faster, which means lose of electricity, and more usage = higher electric bill

even the old phone and cable lines cannot handle the amount of data that is transmitted these days....


on a side note, this is why alot of US cities r requiring new construction to use #12 wire to reduce the heat and electric loss from #14s, and they reduce overheating that can cause Fires

Kerushi
Naval Protection Corp
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:48:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!

don`t forget that it gets stuck while waiting for server info, wich lags
no gui just means ur pc doesn`t has to render anything that depends on server info to be displayed :)

Chalice Ghant
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Miss CJB
i live in londen, and i still get lag,

believe it or not, there was a time, when there was no lag, right after they got the new server just after braking the 15k pcu


Where the hell is this "londen" place of which you speak??.

London perchance?

Gah, you canīt even blame the keyboard for that one. The O and the E are at opposite ends.

And you live there?



darklegionca
Caldari
Dark Deliverance Holdings
Posted - 2006.10.24 14:51:00 - [14]
 

the black cia choppers will be @ your home soon this was a national top secret prg that now the terrorest know about now cuz of your big mouth. (yes im very bord this morning

Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Collegium Mechanicae
Posted - 2006.10.24 18:37:00 - [15]
 

wen u tlk leik a 10 yer uld pepel weel mak fun of u
evn wen u xpln tat u kno al abut evrytings

zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
Posted - 2006.10.24 18:38:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tek'a Rain
wen u tlk leik a 10 yer uld pepel weel mak fun of u
evn wen u xpln tat u kno al abut evrytings


qft :>

Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.24 18:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Firebyrd
All u IT people and everyone else, let me give u a detailed cause of lag..

Yes some is caused by the sever nodes crashing, and trying to keep up, but actually thats only a small percent of lag, most lag is generated not by CCP, but by everything and everyone inbetween CCP and ur computer...

doesnt matter if ur 56K dial-up, Broadband, T1, 1M...doesnt matter, cause u will never get the speeds they advertise, unless you live right next door..

In the USA we have a NEC(National Electric Code), that i have to follow, it cover electric, phone, cable, and data lines and their installation... i have to do 30 hrs per year of Continuing education to keep my liscense...

So let me tell you all a little secret.. o wait i all ready did, companies CAN NOT guarentee you the advertised speeds, in fact the further you live from the main server(routers) and so forth of your ISP the more the signal degrades, same with wi-fi, ccp cant find logs, guess where they got lost at... yep they degraded somewhere in the pipe..

I love this game but i also know that Lag is going to happen some bad some not so bad, but Hardware and Software upgrades on CCPs end and your computer end isnt always going to releave it...

that signal has to go thousands of miles to get to u across many climate changes, and old and worn out lines... even if u live in the UK near the servers, alot of places(most) have their lines going out of the servers for miles then it returns to the miles bake to the city to connect u, so yes u could live next door, and still not have a direct connection

remember every new software and hardware you buy, is already 6 months outdated

whats the purpose of this post, to show that not everything is CCPs or your personal comps fault
Don't take offense to this, but you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

MOST of the lag people experiance in EVE is due to the servers not being able to keep up with the players. PERIOD. Hardware and optimizing software is how you fix this. PERIOD.

The network between me and CCP is fine. My ping and tracert to the server ip range is less than 200ms. Usually alot less. Which means that my computer is sending and recieving information to and from CCP at a rate that is aproaching instant.

Network lag is accompanied by large PING times. 500ms and above. And usually includes drops and forced reconnects.


sakana
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.10.24 18:44:00 - [18]
 

i think the only point i agree with is that not all lag comes from the server, some of it can be to do with the client, which is exactly why CCP continues to update the eve client. but yea, i live in scotland (thats in the uk just in case any of you dont know...i met someone from london who asked me if scotland had shops the other day...anyway back OT) so i'm pretty close to the servers too, as well as living just round the corner from my telephone exchange, but yea i experience lag during fleet battles, or in Rens, just like anyone else. mostly, lag is server based.


Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.24 18:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Unplug your keyboard and smash it into your head to let everyone see how smooth the world runs without you. Rolling Eyes

Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:07:00 - [21]
 

That's funny. I don't seem to experience the kind of lag I get in eve when playing other games (RTCW, Half Life 2) on servers in London (I'm in the US BTW), sure there's a bit more latency then normal, but it runs fine. With EVE I get Łber lag, can't activate modules for seconds at a time, etc; this is clearly not a networking problem, but a computing problem =/

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:20:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Pilk on 24/10/2006 19:22:00
Originally by: Firebyrd
*snip*
that signal has to go thousands of miles to get to u across many climate changes, and old and worn out lines... even if u live in the UK near the servers, alot of places(most) have their lines going out of the servers for miles then it returns to the miles bake to the city to connect u, so yes u could live next door, and still not have a direct connection

Circumference of the Earth: approx. 40,000,000 m
Speed of light in a vacuum: 299,792,458 m/s
Maximum amount-of-wire-between-you-and-London delay: 66.7 milliseconds (double it if you want to feel better about funny cable routing) (this would require you to be off the coast of New Zealand, FWIW)

Now, if you want to talk about retransmit rates and router delays, fine. But don't start talking about PHYSICAL DISTANCE as the determining factor. It's far better to be in Washington, D.C. next to MAE-East than to be in Spain, despite the fact that the latter is physically closer to the servers.

Speaking, mind you, as someone who has top network priority on a network two hops from MAE-East. :-D

Oh, and rabble rabble learn to capitalize rabble rabble and use punctuation and complete words rabble rabble.

--P

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 24/10/2006 19:40:52
Originally by: Firebyrd
Yes some is caused by the sever nodes crashing, and trying to keep up, but actually thats only a small percent of lag, most lag is generated not by CCP, but by everything and everyone inbetween CCP and ur computer...



Wrong: you're describing internet lag, which has nothing to do with EVE Database Lag which has already been acknowledged by the DEVS as a known issue and is being worked on and is why they are ordering new hardware.

Quote:

doesnt matter if ur 56K dial-up, Broadband, T1, 1M...doesnt matter, cause u will never get the speeds they advertise, unless you live right next door..



Incorrect: As long as there is no significant network latency (that's how long it takes your traffic to get from you to the site) you should get exactly the advertized speeds. I get well over 3.7mbps to speed test sites in europe and have about 90ms transit times to the EVE login server. Network speed is NOT an issue here. Please learn a little about how the internet works before spouting off about internet latency. I'm glad you have a rudimentary grasp of how the internet works but um... the lag we are complaining about has nothing to do with the internet and everything to do with the EVE Database.

Quote:

In the USA we have a NEC(National Electric Code), that i have to follow, it cover electric, phone, cable, and data lines and their installation... i have to do 30 hrs per year of Continuing education to keep my liscense...



And this means exactly ZIP in this case because we're talking about Database Seek and Access times affected by billions of transactions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the internet.

Quote:

So let me tell you all a little secret.. o wait i all ready did, companies CAN NOT guarentee you the advertised speeds, in fact the further you live from the main server(routers) and so forth of your ISP the more the signal degrades, same with wi-fi, ccp cant find logs, guess where they got lost at... yep they degraded somewhere in the pipe..



*sighs* yet more proof that you aren't paying attention to the posts here. Nobody is complaining about INTERNET LAG they are complaining about SERVER/Database Lag. Which CCP has already completely acknowledged is a problem. There are MULTIPLE dev blogs regarding the issue.

Quote:

I love this game but i also know that Lag is going to happen some bad some not so bad, but Hardware and Software upgrades on CCPs end and your computer end isnt always going to releave it...



True only for network lag

Quote:

that signal has to go thousands of miles to get to u across many climate changes, and old and worn out lines... even if u live in the UK near the servers, alot of places(most) have their lines going out of the servers for miles then it returns to the miles bake to the city to connect u, so yes u could live next door, and still not have a direct connection



You're talking about network lag again. That's not the issue people are complaining about.

Quote:

remember every new software and hardware you buy, is already 6 months outdated

whats the purpose of this post, to show that not everything is CCPs or your personal comps fault


Please learn a little more about how an MMORPG works before waxing poetic about lag. Internet/Network lag is a common occurance and just about everyone who plays eve is very well aware of what causes it. After all most of us connect from across vast distances to the game and already know how to check ping times to the servers, etc. The problem that people are complaining about in the forums is SERVER lag caused by excessive Database transactions and system overhead on overtaxed hardware. Which would be why CCP is installing newer faster HARDWARE. It would also be why they have been doing stress tests on the TEST SERVER to try to diagnose the biggest causes of the lag.

Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:47:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 24/10/2006 19:47:41
Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Unplug your keyboard and smash it into your head to let everyone see how smooth the world runs without you. Rolling Eyes


Your suggestion was assinine, and so was this retort.

The GUI is necessary, yes it ads load to the client... but well... duh.




Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:55:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 24/10/2006 19:47:41
Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Unplug your keyboard and smash it into your head to let everyone see how smooth the world runs without you. Rolling Eyes


Your suggestion was assinine, and so was this retort.

The GUI is necessary, yes it ads load to the client... but well... duh.





Are you implying that just because it is the GUI it should lag, because it is.. a GUI?

I dont know about you, but most games I play does not experience lag in the GUI. Rolling Eyes

Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:24:00 - [26]
 

Latency, bandwidth and reliability between most users connections and CCPs servers are adequate. Your entire post is entirely pointless unless you honestly believe people are complaining about <200 millisecond delays (1/5th of a second, you might need that one spelled out).

And uh yeah, congratulations on your Cert. Keep up the good work but for the love of god shut the **** up.

Aaronus
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:31:00 - [27]
 

I just came back after a few months off, been playing EVE since 2004. Believe it or not it seems the lag is getting worse despite YARRDHWARE. I think the client is getting to the point where it is showing its age. I mean I love the game but it still ticks me off to have to wait for market and ship fitting to load up. Im all for new players but at this rate it is starting to severely hurt gameplay in some cases. Nevermind the fact that the game hast been balanced for the population as far as roid respawns and so on.

Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:54:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 24/10/2006 19:47:41
Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Unplug your keyboard and smash it into your head to let everyone see how smooth the world runs without you. Rolling Eyes


Your suggestion was assinine, and so was this retort.

The GUI is necessary, yes it ads load to the client... but well... duh.





Are you implying that just because it is the GUI it should lag, because it is.. a GUI?

I dont know about you, but most games I play does not experience lag in the GUI. Rolling Eyes


No, I'm implying that of course turning off the gui improves your frame rate... because 90% of the information the game deals with is.. get this, in the gui.

I don't know about you, but I don't experiance "lag" in the GUI.

Unless you are talking about market, or other server side information. If that is what you are talking about, you have a fundamental missunderstanding of how information travels on a computer based network, and we don't have anything left to talk about because I'm not giving a networks and distributed clients 101 class today. (check back for next term)


Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.24 21:02:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 24/10/2006 19:47:41
Originally by: Mallick
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Mallick
There is two kinds of "lag" in EVE.

Number 1 is server lag. The servers can not do the necassary calculations or whatever fast enough for enough users, and that is why we get x seconds lag to do things.

Number 2 is client side graphic lag which totally renderer your client unuseable! And why is this the case? Cause the GUI f****** sucks! Try to turn it off with CTRL + TAB and no windows and see what I am talking about. Everything runs better without the stupid GUI infront!


And if you press CTRL +Q you can see how smooth your computer runs when it's not doing anything.

Rolling Eyes

Unplug your keyboard and smash it into your head to let everyone see how smooth the world runs without you. Rolling Eyes


Your suggestion was assinine, and so was this retort.

The GUI is necessary, yes it ads load to the client... but well... duh.





Are you implying that just because it is the GUI it should lag, because it is.. a GUI?

I dont know about you, but most games I play does not experience lag in the GUI. Rolling Eyes


No, I'm implying that of course turning off the gui improves your frame rate... because 90% of the information the game deals with is.. get this, in the gui.

I don't know about you, but I don't experiance "lag" in the GUI.

Unless you are talking about market, or other server side information. If that is what you are talking about, you have a fundamental missunderstanding of how information travels on a computer based network, and we don't have anything left to talk about because I'm not giving a networks and distributed clients 101 class today. (check back for next term)



Whatever boy, go back to momi and cry tbh. When disabling the GUI doubles your framerate something is wrong no? Even IF it contains information from the server, it has no excuse to lag like that.

And your point is mot, if you have ever played any other MMORPG you will find out quite fast that EVE is the only one that has this issue. Neither WoW, L2, AC2 nor GW has a lagging GUI!

And really, I am not gonna write a guide for Dummies just so you can understand simple things. Rolling Eyes

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.10.24 21:04:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar

Originally by: Firebyrd

doesnt matter if ur 56K dial-up, Broadband, T1, 1M...doesnt matter, cause u will never get the speeds they advertise, unless you live right next door..



Incorrect: As long as there is no significant network latency (that's how long it takes your traffic to get from you to the site) you should get exactly the advertized speeds. I get well over 3.7mbps to speed test sites in europe and have about 90ms transit times to the EVE login server. Network speed is NOT an issue here. Please learn a little about how the internet works before spouting off about internet latency. I'm glad you have a rudimentary grasp of how the internet works but um... the lag we are complaining about has nothing to do with the internet and everything to do with the EVE Database.



No, he's right here. Broadband providers overcommit their lines (e.g. having a 10Mbps pipe service 20 customers at an advertised rate of 1Mbps for each) on the assumption that not everyone will use it at the same time.

Under current buisness models, it would take an increase of 2-5x the monthly subscription price to get everyone their promised rate all the time.

This doens't apply to higher-end connections, such as T1s and the "business-class" DSL/cable lines.

But overall, network lag is a non-issue for Eve.


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