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Valan
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:02:00 - [31]
 

Sorry not going with the arguement that we would quit if you end GTCs.

If you can afford a computer you can afford to pay.
If you can afford broadband you can afford to pay.
If you can afford internet cafe rates you can afford to pay.
If you have a mobile with extortionate rates you can afford to pay.
If you drink you can afford to pay.
If you smoke you can afford to pay.

GTCs were implemented to help people without normal methods of payment. I can imagine some kids use it to bypass the parent proxy but in that case you should be listening to your mom anyway.

ragewind
Caldari
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:05:00 - [32]
 

bonuses for selling GTC is just like most buisnes they give insentives for pepole selling there goods, this is normal practise so deal with it.

asll we have here is some player who has beocme a GTC seller that actually plays the game and instead of geting rick in RL they are useing it back in gang big deal

Sara Harvey
Gallente
Harvey INC
The Confederation
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:08:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Sara Harvey on 23/10/2006 17:09:39
Originally by: Valan
Sorry not going with the arguement that we would quit if you end GTCs.

If you can afford a computer you can afford to pay.
If you can afford broadband you can afford to pay.
If you can afford internet cafe rates you can afford to pay.
If you have a mobile with extortionate rates you can afford to pay.
If you drink you can afford to pay.
If you smoke you can afford to pay.

GTCs were implemented to help people without normal methods of payment. I can imagine some kids use it to bypass the parent proxy but in that case you should be listening to your mom anyway.



aford to pay mabee, WANT to pay no

Originally by: ragewind
bonuses for selling GTC is just like most buisnes they give insentives for pepole selling there goods, this is normal practise so deal with it.

asll we have here is some player who has beocme a GTC seller that actually plays the game and instead of geting rick in RL they are useing it back in gang big deal


EXACTLY, there would be no argument if they used there money gaind from GTC seling for paying the electric bill, or buying food from the market...

Caliwyrm O'Libr
Token Ring Assembly
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Valan
/emote Points and laughs at CCP.

An alliance with access to top end game content using out of game mechanisms. Please implement a station exchange so we can all play on the same level.


I can understand people's reservations to GTC -> ISK 'problems' to a small degree (it doesn't bother me personally) but I have to wonder about the possible hypocrisy in your post.

If you are against 'out of game mechanisms' then I certainly hope you don't use EveMON, QuickFit, etc as it would give you an advantage over those that don't. I'd wager that the benefit of trained skills far outweights the benefit of ISK..

As far as being able to 'all play on the same level'... Is there something preventing you and/or your alliance from doing the same thing?

It isn't like they're generating enough income with this to subsidize the creation of a dozen titans a month..

Big Al
The Aftermath
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:25:00 - [35]
 

If you are pathetic enough to do this in a game, you might prefer a more hardcore MMO like eq.

Heldane
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:43:00 - [36]
 

After reading it carefully several times I honestly can't really see anything unscrupulous or wrong about it. If CCP condones the sale of timecards and gives out this incentive themselves I really do not see the problem.

In other words, my suggestion would be to simply mind your own business and stop posting things you find on another alliances website.

Angxia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:46:00 - [37]
 

Real life money = Game Time Card

Game Time Card = ISK

Real life money = ISK

This GTC thing boils down to buying ISK indirectly rather than directly, but none the less, buying ISK.

Dr Einkeisel
Red Eye .Inc.
Rare Faction
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:48:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Dr Einkeisel on 23/10/2006 17:48:31
.

Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:53:00 - [39]
 

Thousands of people in this game (including myself) run two or more accounts funded entirely with ISK. If GTC for ISK sales were banned, those people would probably just liquidate and sell their characters (for ISK). CCP would suddenly lose thousands of subscribers, which costs them a lot of money in lost revenue.

CTF for ISK is one of the cleverest mechanisms this game has. It basically allows rich people to buy timecards for poor people.

There are three alliances I know of that do this, and I think its great that the alliance leaders are re-investing their referral money back into the game, would it be better if the CEO's involved kept the money? They may be making lots of ISK, but at the same time they are allowing dozens, perhaps hundreds of people to play the game who would not otherwise be able to.

At the end of the day, CCP wins. They get their referral money back, as well as third party referral money on top. Remember that money goes back into development of the game.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.23 17:56:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Fubear
Thousands of people in this game (including myself) run two or more accounts funded entirely with ISK. If GTC for ISK sales were banned, those people would probably just liquidate and sell their characters (for ISK). CCP would suddenly lose thousands of subscribers, which costs them a lot of money in lost revenue.

Limiting the amount of gtcs someone can buy could work, this of course would be difficult to setup with 3rd party people.

I pay for my accounts with GTC's as well but if getting rid of all the rich cheaters requires me to start paying normally again then thatd be fine with me Razz

Chief Knockahoma
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:02:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Chief Knockahoma on 23/10/2006 18:02:55
To follow up fubear, end the sale of GTCs, you'll stop players from having multiple accounts. $15 a month is one thing; $60 a month is another.

Vito Genovese
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:04:00 - [42]
 

I don't see what the big deal is, other than a, "if I can't have it you can't either" mentality. Except in this case, anyone could do it but they just like to complain a lot.

Bethany Price
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:08:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Bethany Price on 23/10/2006 18:13:59
Originally by: Angxia
Real life money = Game Time Card

Game Time Card = ISK

Real life money = ISK

This GTC thing boils down to buying ISK indirectly rather than directly, but none the less, buying ISK.


yes it does. But it also provides a service and it is not subject to the same downsides as what normal gamemoney selling does. What you have to realize here is that this does not do the harm other spacebux selling can do.

1) Money spent on gtc comes from another player so it does not create direct inflation.
2) gtc are an expendable resource. One you use them they are gone. Prevents inflation.
3) Furthermore this money is one way. You cannot legally sell ISK for money...you can only sell money for ISK. While this doesn't eliminate ISK farming or whatever, it does keep a control on Item price inflation and make ISK farming alot less attractive. I mean what the hell is a farmer going to do with their 70 gadrillion spacebux....buy 17 years worth of timecards?


So while yes it is a way to "buy" isk, there is still no way to sell ISK which is the important part. Its what keeps the economy relatively secure. This also provides a service to buyers who for whatever reason don't want to pay money for acct and sellers who RL time is worth more than what they can make in game. Both ppl leave happy in these transactions (except for scams...I agree something needs to be done w/ regards to security of these transactions)

What this comes down to is ppl are mad they didn't think of it first and that their stock has fallen because soon they won't be able to charge 10000% markups on their t2 BPO crap.

Moab Nos
Amarr
The Executives
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:17:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Armois Delgato
Edited by: Armois Delgato on 23/10/2006 15:11:18
Edited by: Armois Delgato on 23/10/2006 15:10:52
Timecard kickbacks such as this should be banned if they are currently legit. Allowing disreputable alliances to make billions upon billions of ISK per month simply for paying subscription monies to a third party vendor is tantamount to allowing people to buy and sell ISK for real life cash. As direct ISK-for-cash transactions are illegal so should 'kickbacks' such as these also be illegal. These shady transactions cheapen the game and bring real life 'value' to bits of data in CCP's databases- something I thought CCP wanted to avoid by virtue of their anti-Ebay policy.


How is this practice different from buying timecards with real money and selling them for ISK, which is allowed by CCP?
They're simply getting a referral fee per timecard bought, with which they can choose to do anything they want, including converting it into timecards again.

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:28:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 23/10/2006 18:29:00
Originally by: IizzaBatch

If ccp started selling isk themselves for a set price, you pay them x dollars for x amount of isk with your visa card any time you want some isk, would you still be ok with with it? Would you say "its ok because ccp are making money"?



In that case I'd leave the game, because at the moment there is at least some supply and demand mechanism that balances things and the total amount of isk doesn't change, if someone sells a gamecard for isk.
If CCP sold isk for dollars that would be different and before I'd join into a race, who spends more real money into eve that I could only lose anyway as a student, I'd rather play something else.
That's also the reason, why I'm rather relaxed. CCP needs to keep an eye on the situation and make sure that it doesn't get out of control. If they let it finally ruin the game, many people will quit and then the rest can play on it's own on a lag-free server and invest as much $$ as they like. Laughing

Angxia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:29:00 - [46]
 

Earning ISK in-game and selling it for a monetary value is circumventing CCP to make yourself real life money.

Earning ISK in-game and buying game time cards with it to which the money goes back to CCP is a win-win situation.

Right?

Except for everyone out there who doesn't want to pay more than a monthly subscription. No it doesn't affect my gameplay so much the sky is falling on my head because of it.

When I get wardecced by one of these alliances and both sides are sustaining heavy losses, we know who will come out on top. Confused

Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.23 18:33:00 - [47]
 

Here we go again. Listen people. If someone wants to spend their money and buy GTC's to get ISK with them I say all the power to you. Furthermore I ENCOURAGE it. I'm finding more and more newbs in nice ships with great loot. What does that mean for me? I get rich when I blow them to hell. So all in all, he is buying GTC's and giving the ISK proceeds to me.

And you know what? I kinda like that.

Semi Odorous
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:00:00 - [48]
 

To all the people saying that selling GTCs is converting money -> isk, it's not quite as simple as that. There's a market at work. Clearly there is a demand from people who want to buy playtime with the isk they have. If alliances sold hundreds of time codes and supply exceded demand, the isk price of GTCs would drop and it would be a less effective means of making isk. It's not at all like paying CCP for isk directly. If you don't want players to make isk selling GTCs, convince everyone to stop buying them and lower demand. (And good luck with that.)

As for the people complaining about the kickbacks, that's about as legit as it gets. CCP gives signup referal bonuses because they WANT to encourage you to bring in more players. GTC shops give affiliate bonuses because they WANT you to link their site and increase sales. It's like banner ads, and it's working as intended. Why would CCP want to change this?

Valan
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:06:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Sara Harvey
Edited by: Sara Harvey on 23/10/2006 17:09:39
Originally by: Valan
Sorry not going with the arguement that we would quit if you end GTCs.

If you can afford a computer you can afford to pay.
If you can afford broadband you can afford to pay.
If you can afford internet cafe rates you can afford to pay.
If you have a mobile with extortionate rates you can afford to pay.
If you drink you can afford to pay.
If you smoke you can afford to pay.

GTCs were implemented to help people without normal methods of payment. I can imagine some kids use it to bypass the parent proxy but in that case you should be listening to your mom anyway.



aford to pay mabee, WANT to pay no



Thank you finally so we have it. So GTCs allow people to play who don't want to support the game. Its a free ride for the casual bypasser with no real interest in the long term future of EVE so why should we take the need to have GTCs seriously? If the game is worth playing then its only a pittance to play it.

Valan
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:07:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Valan
/emote Points and laughs at CCP.

An alliance with access to top end game content using out of game mechanisms. Please implement a station exchange so we can all play on the same level.


I can understand people's reservations to GTC -> ISK 'problems' to a small degree (it doesn't bother me personally) but I have to wonder about the possible hypocrisy in your post.

If you are against 'out of game mechanisms' then I certainly hope you don't use EveMON, QuickFit, etc as it would give you an advantage over those that don't. I'd wager that the benefit of trained skills far outweights the benefit of ISK..

As far as being able to 'all play on the same level'... Is there something preventing you and/or your alliance from doing the same thing?

It isn't like they're generating enough income with this to subsidize the creation of a dozen titans a month..


I don't use any third party apps. Its a mystery to me why you would use them.

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:19:00 - [51]
 

Dear god, if you can't afford the monthly fee you shouldn't be playing the game period, you need to get something productive done in life.

Lets look at it from the other side.

I make rl enough to buy about a billion isk an hour, on the other hand I can make in game about 10 million isk an hour on average. Would it be fair for me to use that isk to fund a corp/alliance vrs real players?

Hell no, its a game, I don't want an 'I win' button based on outside game resources.

CCP has the tools to stop this sort of crap, (and macrominers) and while it will cost them in the short term, it will give the game the integrity it needs to keep people playing and interested in the long term.

loony thezoon
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:22:00 - [52]
 

If we continue to have GTC for ISK sales, then CCP get the cash.

If GTC for ISK is banned, then ebay takes over.

When GTC for ISK was introduced, it trashed the ebay market, prices dropped to nothing, and sales reduced drastically.

The only reason anyone would whine about this is if they wanted to sell ISK on ebay (see the people above).

Please investigate the accounts of those who complain about gtc for ISK, since they only want their ebay sales price to increase.

Freelanc3r
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:27:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Freelanc3r on 23/10/2006 19:30:06
You know what it boils down to, why the f*ck should I bother even playing the game to earn something when I could just buy that Carrier for a few quid. Its like playing a board game of monopoly and paying extra real money just so you can win, not only cheating but also very very sad.

The big difference between an MMO and say CS is that in an MMO you progress, you buy better ships and get better skills. With 400 you could instantly buy your way to EVE l33tness and have the same stuff other people who played the game have invested a lot of time and effort into.

This thread just goes to show how many people probably have bought GTC's judging by the amount of people that are defending them. It is disgusting that alliances are basically printing out money by exploiting this, its like a free ISK making machine GTC's and it might be within the rules but its utter *******s imo. I dont have any idea how anyone could defend it, unless their corp is already doing it.

Its not that it ruins the EVE economy
Its that it takes away any possible acheivment when you check the trade forums after and think.....hmm I coulda just spent 50 on it.

I really doubt thousands of people would unsub and to be honest if they do good riddance, so we lose a bunch of ISK/Buyers and sellers im certainly not going to lose sleep over it. This whole ISK/Money thing really leaves a sour taste in my mouth and it would be best if CCP got rid of it.

Not posted on an alt either, unlike most of you Rolling Eyes

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2006.10.23 19:28:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Fubear
Thousands of people in this game (including myself) run two or more accounts funded entirely with ISK. If GTC for ISK sales were banned, those people would probably just liquidate and sell their characters (for ISK). CCP would suddenly lose thousands of subscribers, which costs them a lot of money in lost revenue.

CTF for ISK is one of the cleverest mechanisms this game has. It basically allows rich people to buy timecards for poor people.

There are three alliances I know of that do this, and I think its great that the alliance leaders are re-investing their referral money back into the game, would it be better if the CEO's involved kept the money? They may be making lots of ISK, but at the same time they are allowing dozens, perhaps hundreds of people to play the game who would not otherwise be able to.

At the end of the day, CCP wins. They get their referral money back, as well as third party referral money on top. Remember that money goes back into development of the game.


So its ok at the end of the day and CCP wins...and the alliance that does not support their war effort with GTC sales dies out...and players leave a game they can no longer compete in?

So basicly your running two or more accounts, that someone else has paid for, and you are paying them with ISK they have not worked for, minedfor, or other wise earned in game, and you think this is ok?



Valan
Posted - 2006.10.23 20:13:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 20:13:18
There are three threads on this at the moment. This has the most replies and least amount of morons.

There are some who don't like GTCs (me). There are others that can play because of them (although we would be better of without some of them). CCP gets money.

I've been trying to think of an alternative but I can't. I think we all agree that the real evil is the laundering of RL cash through GTCs and ISK. The other evil is the scam artist on the forums and ebay.

I was thinking it may be a good idea to register all players who sell GTCs and maybe limit them. I'm not sure how much work it would be to use automated scripts to audit the registered players to see whether they're ebaying away.

Greater piece of mind for the buyer, better regulation and more ctrl to stop the ebayers.

There maybe flaws in the idea but I don't see any arguements against something like this in principle. Its only bad for ebayers and narrows the gap between the opposing mind sets.

Caliwyrm O'Libr
Token Ring Assembly
Posted - 2006.10.23 20:14:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot


So its ok at the end of the day and CCP wins...and the alliance that does not support their war effort with GTC sales dies out...and players leave a game they can no longer compete in?

So basicly your running two or more accounts, that someone else has paid for, and you are paying them with ISK they have not worked for, minedfor, or other wise earned in game, and you think this is ok?



It isn't like said alliance has any kind of monopoly on GTCs..Should one side start whining that the other brought in a capital ship in a fight and their side didn't?

I routinely pay for accounts of friends in diff MMORPGs that are in a RL money crunch and I'm not too proud to admit I've taken a handout in another MMORPG when times were tight. Is it really any of your business who's accounts I pay for? By your same reasoning I should stop giving away frigates to newbies to help them since "they have not worked for, minedfor, or other wise earned in game".. If one is ok but not the other where exactly do you draw the line and why?

Jita Hero
Posted - 2006.10.23 20:29:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Valan
Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 20:13:18
least amount of morons.



Liar.

Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
Posted - 2006.10.23 20:34:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
So its ok at the end of the day and CCP wins...and the alliance that does not support their war effort with GTC sales dies out...and players leave a game they can no longer compete in?

So basicly your running two or more accounts, that someone else has paid for, and you are paying them with ISK they have not worked for, minedfor, or other wise earned in game, and you think this is ok?


The ISK I pay for GTCs is money that I worked for, mined for, or otherwise earned in game. If I want to give it to someone who has not worked as hard as I do, but has something I need to continue playing, then I don't have a problem with that.

Having lots of ISK doesn't suddenly make you better at PvP, last I heard the wallet balance wasn't a big factor in determining the outcome of a fight.

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.23 21:01:00 - [59]
 

The simple fix for people like Sara who use GTCs is to allow buying Time in game with ISK to an NPC faction.

Make a new CONCORD division called Directorate of Records or something and allow people to "buy" a registration for their pod pilot's license using ISK or real life credit card information for x amount of time.

That way players can still pay for their accounts using ISK, but you won't have players making trillions of ISK off GTCs. It would also be a tremendous ISK sink.

A next step is to allow PayPal or other widely supported non credit card based method as a payment method for EVE Online. Do that and you do away with the need for GTCs all together.

Valan
Posted - 2006.10.23 21:08:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 21:11:12
Originally by: Jita Hero
Originally by: Valan
Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 20:13:18
least amount of morons.



Liar.


lol and another alt. If you don't have a pair don't post. I would rather be a moron than a gutless moron. An insult from some anominous player isn't really an insult. I'm assuming that you have taken the opposing stance to me and your repeated inability to post something constructive adds further weight to my arguement.


The problem with buying from NPCs is that CCP don't get any cash for somebody using their service. Which in any case is not a good business model.

If we register private sellers the GTC sale can be controlled. A player sells a GTC without being registered they get an instant perma ban. Sale goes wrong insta perma ban. Strange amounts of isk repeatedly disappearing from accounts perma ban.

Don't see anything wrong with this. Can't be a bad idea I'm being flamed by ebayers. Flaming to get the post locked hoping that players won't be registered so they can ebay at will.


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