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GrumpyCat
Republic University
Posted - 2006.10.06 22:13:00 - [31]
 

Tracking disrupters are overpowered. Remove them and their countermeasures(tracking computers,tracking enhancers).

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.10.06 22:30:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Frezik on 06/10/2006 22:30:55
Originally by: Black Scorpio

This post was aimed at the following statement of yours:

Originally by: Jim McGregor

As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things...



this is a personal attack at the person not helping with the topic my man..


Personal attack is if I call you an idiot. Saying you have a lack of understanding of the finer points of Eve, when there is demonstratable evidence for it, is not a personal attack.

Target disrupters cause turrents to miss more often. When they miss, they don't do any damage. Therefore, target disrupters reduce damage. QED.

Defenders need to be turned on when you have missiles in-bound. When you take into account pilot reaction time, lag, and time for the defender to lock on, you will be lucky to shoot down even one missile in short and medium range engagements. Missiles used at longer ranges (torpedos) have higher hit points, so one defender will not take them out. The next defender out of your launcher will not lock onto a torp that is already targetted by another defender. Even if defenders have an AoE (which I doubt), a good raven pilot could cycle the launches to have one torp fireing every 2-3 seconds, thus making only one defender hit one torp. Therefore, defenders will rarely shoot down a single missile. QED.

Additionally, defenders will only hit missiles inbound on you. They can't help your gang mates. Target Disrupters help everyone on your team.

Before the missile changes, I once completely shut down kestrals in a corp 2v2 frig contest using defenders. Those days are long gone.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2006.10.06 23:27:00 - [33]
 


I think most of us can agree defenders dont do the job.

I think most ppl would agree that for a msl counter to be balanced/fair etc... it should not only occupy a midslot like anti turret mods, but that it should also have a similar effect.

So I suggest we scrap defenders altogether and replace w/ a mid-slot 'flack gun'. Flack guns would not require ammo and would auto fire in teh direction of incoming missiles w/ a success rate equivelent to the drop in dps a turret destab does, blah blah wouldn't be useable except as msl defense blah blah....you get the idea.

Hows that?

Naylon
Posted - 2006.10.06 23:33:00 - [34]
 

Point defense could be an answer.

Change the current defenders skill to a point defense weapons skill. Point defence weapons are a utility slot item. Large, Medium, Small. Damage, ROF, fitting requirements etc could be worked out.

Point defence are guns similar to civ guns in that they don't use ammo. They can target and shoot missiles. 2 shots required to take a torp, 1 for all others. Oh, and they have tracking. Larger ones have worse tracking so they have problems hitting smaller missiles. Balancable with a bit of work (well hopefully), its not been suggested in this thread yet, not sure about elsewhere

Zooish
Posted - 2006.10.07 02:07:00 - [35]
 

I want defenders / point defence against the Turret Based weapons also, better to make it fair !!!

Saria Mysdrial
Amarr
ORE-TECH
CERBERUS INDUSTRIAL ALLIANCE
Posted - 2006.10.07 02:58:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zooish
I want defenders / point defence against the Turret Based weapons also, better to make it fair !!!


Those are called tracking disrupters. Please see above. Thank you.

Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.07 04:18:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Vathar
Now for a constructive comment to make defenders useful without too much change.

Keep them as a hislot module (utilityslot, not requiring a dedicated hardpoint) with low fitting cost and a set number of charges. Keeping the defender principle intact would leave the defender skill functional. when you're under fire from missiles and activate your defenders, a roll is made (according to you defender skill, your opponent's missile skills, the kind of missile fired at you, the distance ... maybe your own missile skills) to determine if the missile is shot down (This roll is instant, to take care of current crappy defenders behavior) whether it's shot down or not, a defender is used. If the roll is successful, the nearest incoming missile is destroyed (or takes damage if it's a torpedo, nothing changes here and multiple successive rolls might still be required to shoot down torps)
Since this module has a rof, it won't do anything until next defender is ready to be launched.

I've thought about other ways to deal with defenders, but this one doesn't change much from the current systems and should help things a bit.

We can note that there's also a difference between defenders and TD, TD affect the enemy ship, thus protecting your friends, whil defenders will only protect the one using them, but should protect him from all missile users around him (up to the limits of the module) This further enhances the difference between turrets ans missiles.


problem with that is that the higher the ROF of the missile launcher, the less you will shoot down, while with turrets that doesnt matter, TD **** them equally.

Oh and yes, the fact that they only protect yourself is a huge downside.

eBail Jerbal
Posted - 2006.10.07 05:03:00 - [38]
 

there was a time whena an autotargeter would target missiles and you could shoot them

Vathar
The Wings of Maak
Posted - 2006.10.07 07:13:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Vathar
Now for a constructive comment to make defenders useful without too much change.

Keep them as a hislot module (utilityslot, not requiring a dedicated hardpoint) with low fitting cost and a set number of charges. Keeping the defender principle intact would leave the defender skill functional. when you're under fire from missiles and activate your defenders, a roll is made (according to you defender skill, your opponent's missile skills, the kind of missile fired at you, the distance ... maybe your own missile skills) to determine if the missile is shot down (This roll is instant, to take care of current crappy defenders behavior) whether it's shot down or not, a defender is used. If the roll is successful, the nearest incoming missile is destroyed (or takes damage if it's a torpedo, nothing changes here and multiple successive rolls might still be required to shoot down torps)
Since this module has a rof, it won't do anything until next defender is ready to be launched.

I've thought about other ways to deal with defenders, but this one doesn't change much from the current systems and should help things a bit.

We can note that there's also a difference between defenders and TD, TD affect the enemy ship, thus protecting your friends, whil defenders will only protect the one using them, but should protect him from all missile users around him (up to the limits of the module) This further enhances the difference between turrets ans missiles.


problem with that is that the higher the ROF of the missile launcher, the less you will shoot down, while with turrets that doesnt matter, TD **** them equally.

Oh and yes, the fact that they only protect yourself is a huge downside.


Yeah, things have to be worked out to balance everything, but the thing is that I don't want a TD for missile, but something different, this would further enhance the difference between missiles and turrets by making their counters work differently

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.07 08:15:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/10/2006 08:16:01

Originally by: Vathar

Yeah, things have to be worked out to balance everything, but the thing is that I don't want a TD for missile, but something different, this would further enhance the difference between missiles and turrets by making their counters work differently


Defender missiles are a bad idea to start with... because they require a launcher and they dont disrupt all the missiles coming out from the launchers like a tracking disruptor does for turrets.

A raven with a tracking disruptor doesnt need to give up any damage to use it (only tank), and it should be the same for missile disruptors. So I still think a medium slot module would be the best choice here. I dont see a reason why you would need to give up a high slot to defend against missiles.

Therin Dracul
Posted - 2006.10.07 09:41:00 - [41]
 

Quote:
You can still argue that missile boats have to have a lock on the target ship before they can launch missiles at you...


Except they DO NOT need a lock, they could just use FOF missiles.

XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.07 11:54:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:16:08

There is a perfect defense vs turrets. Normal med-slot tracking disruptors. They make their damage go down alot.. just try them. Works perfectly, and against all turrets.

Now if only multispectrals wouldnt totally overshadow their popularity... =)

And you shouldnt have to fly a Raven with defenders to defend against its missiles, just like you dont have to fly a Tempest to defend against turrets.



Dude, read the module description first before posting:

tracking disruptor --> Disrupts the turret range and tracking speed of the target ship.

NOT THE DAMAGE... how will a tracking distruptor help in a BS vs BS ship for example when both targets are so slow and fighting up close ? just don't see it working.. oh and do you really sacrifice 1-2 modules when you go out in your less than BC ship for tracking distruptors ? don't think so... even in a BS you rarely use the, just as the defender misiles.. maybe in a specialized ship as the scorpion which is perfect for this use, or the special op ships but hey...

nerfing misiles more.. ? ? ? check my post regarding T2 Anti-ship torpedoes and please, suggest something meaningful next time..

Misiles are Caldari trade mark, just as Drones for Gallente, should you create a slow down drone module then cause you really have no other defence agains them but a large bomb ? how often do you fit one? and what about small ships..

you see where this is going....

YARRRR!!


its called a webber you need to accept that there are a million ways to dodge bullets and none for missiles...
transversal... tracking disrupters... transversal again.

missiles = defender... doesnt work well imo

Morreia
The Celestial Element
Posted - 2006.10.07 12:56:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Morreia on 07/10/2006 12:58:48
Originally by: Black Scorpio

This post was aimed at the following statement of yours:

Originally by: Jim McGregor
[
As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things...



this is a personal attack at the person not helping with the topic my man..


and this isn't?

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Morreia
Look, I use missiles, I still however think its not fair how the only things you can effectivly do is fly a faster or smaller ship whereas turrets have EW designed to counter them.


That DOESN'T make any sense Morreia.. I won't even begin to think what you really want from the game..

all you can do is fly faster or smaller ship in game? and these other guys have these "cool" features as distruptors, wooo, LOL...

out of mind?YARRRR!!


All I'm saying is to reduce missile damage against your ship you either have to have smaller sig than missile explosion radius, go faster than explosion velocity or go faster than the missile.

Now with turrets you can go fast enough so they have trouble tracking you, have a smaller sig, or fit a EW module which means that they have an even harder time tracking you and hitting you because of range.

The thing is missiles have 3 effective ways to reduce damage whereas turrets have 4 (if you take it as going faster enough to reduce the chance and going fast enough to make it so they cn't hit you at all as different points which seeing as I did for missiles (going faster than explosion velocity and going faster than missile itself)). Because of this I think missiles need a med slot EWar mod to counter them. What I posted was just an idea of what this could be.

[EDIT] This could make for some interesting flying if the missile went aproximatly the same speed as your ship (slightly on the faster side) because then just orbiting wouldn't stop them hitting you but some skillful flying would. [/EDIT]

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2006.10.07 20:18:00 - [44]
 

I have a simple solution... leave defenders as they are, make two other kind of defenders, one that is larger tho it's launcher speed is lower to counter torps and another one that does less damage but more splash damage to damage several at once. this would also add in new launchers to atleast have one forth of the missile kind of launchers.. and for non missile ships, as almost all gal ships have no missile hardpoint, have a special non-type weapon, simular to a probe launcher to launch suiside drones into a missile volley. These drones will also have their own skills to focus on how much they can do, how fast they are aswell as having several kinda to fire. This way your not stuck with only one option but several. The options are, fast shooting tho mild damage anti-missle, a simi-fast tho light damage anti-missle or a slower but heavly damaging anti-missle. If this doesn't sound fair please tell me now and i will alter my thought. And befor you say I'm picking on missiles, turrets have tracking speed to hit a target a missle only has a range and speed(which is mostly more then twice the ships top speed) to strike not needing accuracy really.

Ghoest
Posted - 2006.10.07 21:39:00 - [45]
 

This post implies that some how missiles are over powered compared to guns for PVP - that is absurd.

cytomatrix
Caldari
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
Posted - 2006.10.07 22:15:00 - [46]
 

Like you need some defense against missiles. Lets face it guys missile dps sux. Even a my manticore can tank a caracal. lol. If you are gonna make a missile disruption module like tracking disruption module for guns, you better make missiles work exactly like guns. And should do good dmg with good skills like guns.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2006.10.07 22:26:00 - [47]
 

As overpowering as it would be... a good anti-missile module would be one that put a big cushy bubble around your own ship (like a shield that prevented fast stuff from getting through it... remember that one in Dune The Movie?) that dampens the explosion velocity (and maybe radius) of missiles fired at you. Unforunately, unless you figured out some way like it was a shield that 'took damage away' but recharged real fast and only worked against missile damage, it'd be crazy because whether one or 100 ships were firing missiles at you, all would be effected, as opposed to tracking disruptors which only effect one targeted ship at a time.

Areconus
Posted - 2006.10.07 22:39:00 - [48]
 

Ive got it!.....with tracking disruptors, it doesnt totally constitute a miss, just a lower chance.....now:

how about a module that effects the missile's explosion velocity or radius? there could be a medslot module that targets the missiles instantly, and causes their explosion velocities to decrease, or radius to increase. Or, if you want something more realistic-like, a module that acts as a hardener, and when missiles enter the bubble, the massive gravity generated by the module causes th explosion velocity to take a hit.

Hey, if you dont like these ideas, then come up with some of your own that affect sig and velocity, not actually destroying the missile....i mean theres no module that destroys artillery shells or laser beams

Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.10.07 23:12:00 - [49]
 

Defenders would actually be worth something if you could block missiles from a particular target.

Rakeris
Brethren Empire
Hitchhiker's Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.07 23:47:00 - [50]
 

One idea I always liked was:

Just leave defenders the same they are now, but make it so when you activate it activates it on the ship, like a TD would. So when the ship that a defender is activated on launches a missile the defender instantly launches a defender against it. That would get rid of the whole reaction time lag thing, so short ranges might not be near the problem...

And the word defender if course is referring to a launcher as well, depending on how it's used. :p

Anyway, just my two cent.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.10.08 00:10:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Sorja on 08/10/2006 00:11:04

Wonderful idea, can we have a module that redirects missiles lost in space (not connected, because, you know... missiles are that fast...) to the next locked target?

If so, we might consider your idea.
Hmm... even better, no module needed, lost missiles just reconnect to next target, there, you have balance with turrets.

Oh, and btw, it would be great having some missiles ships (Hawk anyone?) dealing close to half the damage of other same class ships?

Edit cuz I'm wasted.

Axitikus
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2006.10.08 00:38:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Morreia
Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:52:28
Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:51:44
Soz, pressed enter.

Anyways, this is just one of those random ideas i get.

Do you think a module that effectivly creates time bubbles around missiles leaving target ship thereby slowing them down and also slowing down the explosion velocity would be ok.

This would mean they would be shorter range and wouldnt do as much damage, or even no damage if they couldn't catch up with the ship slowing them down.

They would therefore act in a very similar way to TD's.

Please comment.

P.S. I still think we need a mod to decrease sig radius but thats a different matter.


Dont take this the wrong way but I wish I had a time bubble so I could go back and prevent you from making your OP


Morreia
The Celestial Element
Posted - 2006.10.08 08:49:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Axitikus
Originally by: Morreia
Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:52:28
Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:51:44
Soz, pressed enter.

Anyways, this is just one of those random ideas i get.

Do you think a module that effectivly creates time bubbles around missiles leaving target ship thereby slowing them down and also slowing down the explosion velocity would be ok.

This would mean they would be shorter range and wouldnt do as much damage, or even no damage if they couldn't catch up with the ship slowing them down.

They would therefore act in a very similar way to TD's.

Please comment.

P.S. I still think we need a mod to decrease sig radius but thats a different matter.


Dont take this the wrong way but I wish I had a time bubble so I could go back and prevent you from making your OP




Please try to refrain from making such a pointless post.

All i'm saying I think think its wrong when turrets can't hit me but no matter what I do missiles still can even if it isn't for as much damage as what a turret would do if I was sitting still with the sig the size of NY.

Obviously you guys don't agree and this is just going to degenerate into a thread of who has more reputation on the forums and who has an older char so could someone please lock it.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.08 08:55:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Morreia

Obviously you guys don't agree and this is just going to degenerate into a thread of who has more reputation on the forums and who has an older char so could someone please lock it.


Most people arent interested in game balance, they just want their ship to be as good as possible. Having a medium slot missile disruptor that makes missiles miss or do less damage would certainly threaten all the Raven users out there for example, which currently can spam their missiles for full damage. It doesnt bother them that turret users cant do the same. Of course its not a popular idea. Dont take it personal. :)

Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.10.09 04:37:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sorja
Edited by: Sorja on 08/10/2006 00:11:04

Wonderful idea, can we have a module that redirects missiles lost in space (not connected, because, you know... missiles are that fast...) to the next locked target?

If so, we might consider your idea.
Hmm... even better, no module needed, lost missiles just reconnect to next target, there, you have balance with turrets.

Oh, and btw, it would be great having some missiles ships (Hawk anyone?) dealing close to half the damage of other same class ships?

Edit cuz I'm wasted.


LoL, if every other missle hits I think you can afford to lose a single volley per target. Though, I wouldn't mind this myself to be honest. My Raven and 'Phoon would appreciate it. It should take a module though.

Back on topic, if defenders had a point in gang warfare I might not regret training the skill.

Buda Pest
Posted - 2006.10.09 10:51:00 - [56]
 

Someone mentioned drones....

I like that idea... fast, light drones specialized to take down incoming missles...

or how about a chafe module.... one that spits out a cloud or that creates a zone around the ship... every missle that comes into the cloud/zone has to "roll" or either be destroyed outright or explode before hitting the actual target. So some missles will "miss" and others will hit less accurately (only with the fringe of their explosion) and so do less damage...

momotaro
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2006.10.09 12:02:00 - [57]
 

how about keeping the defenders as they are, instead make a mid slot module that needs to be activated on a target and creates a field between u and your target that makes explosion velocity of the misile very small, they still hit you but with less impact. also the module has activation time and cap/fitting costs the same as a turret disruptor. i know it does not help your gang a lot but how about fitted on an interceptor, it would half the damage from anti-ship fast misiles, also the module has activation time equal to target disruptors.

the skill required would be "weapon disruption" and it would be like "with every level you increase the percentage in witch misile explosion speed is decreased" like with a t2 one it should decrease explosion velocity with 60%, but if u stay still it will not do much good.

think of it this way, as a takler i sometimes put a TD instead of a web, this will make u survive more, but i'm seriously pwnd by t2 misiles, i died lots of times from javelin misiles as misiles always hit.

as i said it will not destroy misiles, just make damage lower IF you dont stay still, with that DPS will be lower, just like TD does.

if u want to make it a gang bonus, it can be activated on a friendly ship that is in the range of the module. also why not make the module able to get "ammo" fitted, like cap batteries or such, with different charges consumtion for remote and local activation.

u can put as many modules as u want, normal penalties apply.


Eklypdia
CCCP INC
Posted - 2006.10.10 09:47:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: eBail Jerbal
there was a time whena an autotargeter would target missiles and you could shoot them


Sweet, that sounds awesome tbh. The ability to manually target missiles and try shoot them down with guns would make things quite interesting. I can imagine zooming around in an inty, chasing down torpedoes, trying to take them out before they hit my mates dreadnought :D


Originally by: Vathar
Yeah, things have to be worked out to balance everything, but the thing is that I don't want a TD for missile, but something different, this would further enhance the difference between missiles and turrets by making their counters work differently

I agree, i think it'd be more interesting to keep the types of weapons quiet different.

My favourite idea so far are the midslot antimissile ones, i can imagine a laser shooting out to destroy a nearby missile enemy missile once every couple seconds at the expense of capacitor. Nubs in T1 frigates acting as goalkeepers, trying to keep the missiles from making it past.

Smart Bomb
Caldari
Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
Posted - 2006.10.10 11:28:00 - [59]
 

Missles allready got nerfed and I had 10mill SP in missles so all you that posted in here specially the ones saying the meduim slot missle disrupter module, please die. thanksTwisted Evil

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:46:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Eklypdia
Originally by: eBail Jerbal
there was a time whena an autotargeter would target missiles and you could shoot them


Sweet, that sounds awesome tbh. The ability to manually target missiles and try shoot them down with guns would make things quite interesting. I can imagine zooming around in an inty, chasing down torpedoes, trying to take them out before they hit my mates dreadnought :D


I Like this idea, maybe a skill that would have a new targeter just for missiles, just just aimed at you but all foe missles, a skill will limit how many you can target, maybe a different skill to have a turret to auto fire on said targeted missles, if need be a deffencive turret. this would also be for defender drones aswell, larget the gun or drone the more damage but lower tracking it will have. They already have missile hp limits so that part of programming is done, maybe also give more types of defender missles or atleast t2 defenders with more damage.


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