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blankseplocked New way to get T2 BP's, is it ok?
 
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infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.09.28 19:23:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Noriath
If tech 2 BPOs are freely availible to everyone you just have to shift the parameters of their manufacturing in order to restrict supply and ensure healthy competition, like not allowing people to build them in freakin' empire space.

I mean it's about damn time there was a reak reason to move your economy out into 0.0 where it can be atacked instead of keeping it nice and safe snug as a bug in empire run by alt chars that nobody even knows the name of.

But noooo, let's just give huge power and wealth to a few people who won the lottery that don't have to do anything to protect their position...



Manufacturing in Eve is lame lame lame, and the entire idea of a realistic economy is completly ruined by artificial monopoly, anonymous manufacturing/marketing, and the general inability to directly atack competition as a result of it.

If you really want a monopoly in Eve you should have to acctually fight your competition to a point where nobody buys their goods anymore because they have to raise the price in order to compensate for their losses. In order to achieve that you should not be allowed to manufacture in noob corps and all goods should indicate what corp makes them. Then put in something that prevents people from just creating a new corp after every batch of production as well, like requiering Blueprints to permanently be "implanted" to the corp without you being able to remove them again so that corps make stuff, not anonymous alt characters.


This guy almost hit the nail on the head. Not sure about the last few lines about BPO's being hardwired to corps like that but everything else sounds good to me.

Yukon Cornelius
Caldari
Digital Fury Online
Posted - 2006.09.28 19:31:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Yukon Cornelius on 28/09/2006 19:32:30
Originally by: Noriath
I mean it's about damn time there was a reak reason to move your economy out into 0.0 where it can be atacked instead of keeping it nice and safe snug as a bug in empire run by alt chars that nobody even knows the name of.


During wartime the planes, guns, and ships are not manufactured on the battlefield. Likewise, Westinghouse and General Dynamics don't open plants in South Central Los Angeles or Hell's Kitchen, Bronx.

The idea of forcing manufacture to 0.0 space is an illusory dream that people will always find a way to circumvent.

The best way to ensure a healthy economy is eliminate artificial, systemic obstacles to ordinary activities. Such as purchasing a T2 blueprint, for instance.

CharlieMurphy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.09.28 20:13:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: CharlieMurphy on 28/09/2006 20:21:11
Quote:
i guess you think a supertanker balancing on a 400 foot pole in a hurricane is stable too?


speaking only about the cov ops II Linkage
the market chart posted is misleading and infact almost meaningless because the prices down the side dont seem to be displayed and so we dont know what the increments are
while the bigger picture over the whole year shows a steady climb you will notice that from about half way thru march to about half way thru september the moving average stays inside 2 increments, perhaps i should have said reasonably stable, altho i admit there is a general upwards trend

here is another screenshot showing the market over 3 months in a different region and its equally as meaningless because again the prices are missing on the left

you cant really make a statement based on the prices in 1 region anyway

Quote:
edit: In the same vein I think the most popular HAC prices look similar although they may be levelling off at the moment, albeit at a ridiculously high point


and no doubt when the upper limit of what people will pay for the cov ops II is reached you will see something similar
the price is not swinging randomly its climbing steadily and given enough time the market will find a balance

Karina Harington
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.09.29 12:13:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: CharlieMurphy
Edited by: CharlieMurphy on 28/09/2006 20:21:11
speaking only about the cov ops II Linkage
the market chart posted is misleading and infact almost meaningless because the prices down the side dont seem to be displayed and so we dont know what the increments are
while the bigger picture over the whole year shows a steady climb you will notice that from about half way thru march to about half way thru september the moving average stays inside 2 increments, perhaps i should have said reasonably stable, altho i admit there is a general upwards trend

The graph starts at zero and the current price for a covops cloak is 60m+, so it's pretty safe to say it's 10mil increments. In any case, so long as the graph starts at zero, the absolute value doesn't matter much, what does matter is that its price has gone up 50% in six months. That's some pretty hefty inflation.

Yukon Cornelius
Caldari
Digital Fury Online
Posted - 2006.09.29 13:29:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Karina Harington
In any case, so long as the graph starts at zero, the absolute value doesn't matter much, what does matter is that its price has gone up 50% in six months. That's some pretty hefty inflation.


Actually, although it's probably not the case in this instance, using percentages without disclosing absolute values is a common method of deception that propagandists use all the time.

For instance suppose there was some disease that is actually pretty rare, but some activist group wanted everyone to be all scared about it.

If two people had this disease one year, and three had it the next year, the activists would be shrieking about how the infection rate soared 50% and we're all facing a pandemic. The absolute numbers would be concealed, though, for obvious reasons.

The point is, don't assume a raw graph has any intrinsic meaning. In the absence of actual values, the graph could be completely irelevant.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.29 13:34:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 29/09/2006 13:35:03
Originally by: Yukon Cornelius
Originally by: Karina Harington
In any case, so long as the graph starts at zero, the absolute value doesn't matter much, what does matter is that its price has gone up 50% in six months. That's some pretty hefty inflation.


Actually, although it's probably not the case in this instance, using percentages without disclosing absolute values is a common method of deception that propagandists use all the time.

For instance suppose there was some disease that is actually pretty rare, but some activist group wanted everyone to be all scared about it.

If two people had this disease one year, and three had it the next year, the activists would be shrieking about how the infection rate soared 50% and we're all facing a pandemic. The absolute numbers would be concealed, though, for obvious reasons.

The point is, don't assume a raw graph has any intrinsic meaning. In the absence of actual values, the graph could be completely irelevant.



On that graph, each line represents a difference of 10 million. A quick analysis shows that the bottom line is indeed zero.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:07:00 - [67]
 

Covops cloaks were 40 milish 5 months ago :\

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:15:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Covops cloaks were 40 milish 5 months ago :\

And I remember when they were 10-15m Neutral

Noriath
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:56:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Yukon Cornelius
Edited by: Yukon Cornelius on 28/09/2006 19:32:30
Originally by: Noriath
I mean it's about damn time there was a reak reason to move your economy out into 0.0 where it can be atacked instead of keeping it nice and safe snug as a bug in empire run by alt chars that nobody even knows the name of.


During wartime the planes, guns, and ships are not manufactured on the battlefield. Likewise, Westinghouse and General Dynamics don't open plants in South Central Los Angeles or Hell's Kitchen, Bronx.

The idea of forcing manufacture to 0.0 space is an illusory dream that people will always find a way to circumvent.

The best way to ensure a healthy economy is eliminate artificial, systemic obstacles to ordinary activities. Such as purchasing a T2 blueprint, for instance.


During wartime nothing is not on the battlefield, if your enemy uses it to make planes guns and ships you sure as hell will blow the living snot out of it, no matter where it is.
In Eve, you can't. An artificial system keeps you from atacking means of production that should be a valid target in a conflict. That has to stop, it dumbs down the entire game.

Tech 2 manufacturing should be forced into 0.0 because of that. It's the only way to allow you to atack peoples means of production without changing the entire way the game works regarding alt characters, second accounts, hiding in newbiecorps etc.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:13:00 - [70]
 

The most popular items will feel the effect of Inventions:

The main target will be the famous HACS... I'm predicting prices similar to the actual tier 1/2 bs for the most wanted ones ...

There are 100.000 acounts in Eve and now the Tec 2 items are in reach of everybody ... prices will drop and will drop fast... If the prices dont drop you can always make your own tec2 item and thats great... bye bye 185m hacs (thats what cost me the zealot Mad)

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:35:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: CharlieMurphy

speaking only about the cov ops II Linkage
the market chart posted is misleading and infact almost meaningless because the prices down the side dont seem to be displayed and so we dont know what the increments are
...


A chimpanzee could figure out those incrementsLaughing


Inairin
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:37:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Inairin on 29/09/2006 16:48:17
you can aquire price at a specific date by clicking on the "show table" button down left from the graph. that way you'll get a list with the whole price displayed,(both min, max and avrage + date).

around december/january(RMR release) was when the price started spiking, covert ops were 15-20 mil and IIs were 10-15mil before then, normal ones were piled in "please take a sample"-baskets at your local store.
ah, the old days.

looking at the latest devblog now it seems that cloaks are verified to be invulnerable to invention. i sure as hell hope that they've thought about this and included some other random not yet told of way to make them or they've efficiently killed off covert ops ops ships for most people, things will return to pre-RMR state when people fly stealthbombers without the stealth part, which is stupid.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:46:00 - [73]
 

I'm very interested how this is gonna work, specially cuz i got a lot of RP's accumulated, so now i atleast have a chance to make some use of them.

And with inneficient bpc's... well even if it would cost like twice the original bpo's production costs, it would still be worth 'inventing' sum items for sure.

if it means that certain T2 ships/items *cough cerberus and CO cloak cough* will go down in price then i'm happy Very Happy

Womble God
Gallente
Thw Womblers
Posted - 2006.09.29 17:06:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Womble God on 29/09/2006 17:07:26
Having read through alot of posts about the T2 market and the market in general I have noticed one very common theme. People keep comparing the market in EVE to a real world market and I find myself wondering why they bother?

How long have the majority of established, functioning real world markets been in existence? At a very rough guess I would say between 20 and 100 years. How long has EVE been up and running? 3 years?

How many people/companies/governments/countries are responsible for making real world markets what they are today? Hundreds of thousands, millions maybe?

And how many people are responsible for the market in EVE? The staff at CCP and a maximum of 180 thousand players.

Is it any wonder the market for alot of things in EVE doesnt seem fair or right? Give the T2 BPO owners and CCP a break already. They are attempting to accomplish something that has taken the civilised world decades upon decades to get where it is and it still isnt right. People need to realise that this is a game.

Lady Loom
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.01 19:33:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Womble God
Edited by: Womble God on 29/09/2006 17:07:26
Having read through alot of posts about the T2 market and the market in general I have noticed one very common theme. People keep comparing the market in EVE to a real world market and I find myself wondering why they bother?

How long have the majority of established, functioning real world markets been in existence? At a very rough guess I would say between 20 and 100 years. How long has EVE been up and running? 3 years?

How many people/companies/governments/countries are responsible for making real world markets what they are today? Hundreds of thousands, millions maybe?

And how many people are responsible for the market in EVE? The staff at CCP and a maximum of 180 thousand players.

Is it any wonder the market for alot of things in EVE doesnt seem fair or right? Give the T2 BPO owners and CCP a break already. They are attempting to accomplish something that has taken the civilised world decades upon decades to get where it is and it still isnt right. People need to realise that this is a game.
if it's just a game why do you compare it to RL anyway? We're talking about a virtual world, where "god"/CCP can do wtf they want with "their" economy if they see fit - and it doesn't take 20 or 100 years to figure out what's wrong with the current system of T2 BPO distribution which just ASKS for monopolies and cartels. Neither does it take 20-100 years to fix it, and we're also not talking about an economic system of the same scope with umpteen thousands of different goods and companies making stuff for their customers to buy. So as you said, any comparison to RL economics is inherently flawed. It's a game and it's ultimatively CCP's job to keep the economy intact and balanced.

Which it is not, atm, the current system does one thing: it limits manufacturing to a select few - everyone starting anew either has to shell out ridiculous amounts of money to buy a T2 BPO given they find someone who sells one, or they're restricted to largely unprofitable T1 items. So manufacturing as a profession is NOT an option for any new player, unlike about everything from mining to PvE to PvP in EVE. And that's just sad. Now whether invention actually fixes this, I have my doubts, but let's see what people make of it...

BOldMan
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.05 21:31:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: BOldMan on 05/11/2006 21:31:21
Originally by: Dark Shikari

1. Cloaks: The high price of cloaks makes stealth bombers nearly useless, doubles the price of recons, and makes a covops more expensive to lose than a BS.

2. Large T2 guns (425mm IIs, 1400mm IIs, etc): It costs more to fit a megathron than it costs to buy a megathron. This changes game balance drastically, as it makes fleets far more expensive to fit and more costly to lose.

3. Ballistic Control System II. The high price makes the useless to fit on anything smaller than a BC, and perhaps a BS/HAC.



And that is not a problem from game perspective? Cloack T2 is already a robbery.

rodgerd
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.05 21:53:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: rodgerd on 05/11/2006 21:55:11
Originally by: Dark Shikari

2. Large T2 guns (425mm IIs, 1400mm IIs, etc): It costs more to fit a megathron than it costs to buy a megathron.


That hardly seems unreasonable, given that it's not uncommon for fitting costs to eclipse ship costs in many classes of ship.

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.05 22:02:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: rodgerd
Edited by: rodgerd on 05/11/2006 21:55:11
Originally by: Dark Shikari

2. Large T2 guns (425mm IIs, 1400mm IIs, etc): It costs more to fit a megathron than it costs to buy a megathron.


That hardly seems unreasonable, given that it's not uncommon for fitting costs to eclipse ship costs in many classes of ship.


My command ships generally are fitted with around 1/4-1/3 of the cost of the ship. HACs cost even less to fit out, but cost more...

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.05 22:09:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
Originally by: Dark Shikari

Invention is the perfect system to solve the T2 problem: people will naturally only spend their time to make BPCs for overpriced items, bringing down the prices.

Thus, as long as Cerberuses cost 220m, they'll make Cerberus BPCs. And when Cerbs cost 100m or 120m again, they'll go for the Vagabond. And so on.


Agreed!


Makes sense.

Zephirz
Cruoris Seraphim
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2006.11.05 22:20:00 - [80]
 

I actually doubt invention will change very much. I mean I assume not everyone is going to be able to harvest those bpcs at regular times. And there will be even less people able to produce from those bpcs... Who says that those people wont buyout all the bpcs and happily join the rippoff market?

Darksaber64x
Ecchi co.
Posted - 2006.11.06 00:01:00 - [81]
 

Heeeey... I remember this thread... from like 2 months ago... but anyway.

I agree that invention will only really be worth it for the overpriced items. The problem is, is that when we get down to it, a lot of newer players will whine that they can't get the resources for building T2 items/ships, and whine about the monopoly of the components... and we'll be in about the same situation as we're in now.


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