open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked The Zealot in EVE today.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

Author Topic

Vathar
The Wings of Maak
Posted - 2006.08.26 14:14:00 - [31]
 

Honestly, this sounds to me like another example of forum pvp where all that matters are spreadsheets and dps ...

asked a bunch of people flying their zealots regularly for pvp, they are mostly happy with it and most pilots would rather have a small dronebay than a 5th turret ...

Omnitanks aren't nearly as popular as people write here, simply because they're more expensive than T1 cruisers, pretty useless on most assault resists, and appear mostly on battleships.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.08.26 14:21:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 26/08/2006 00:07:58
I would just like to add these to small bits of info curtesy of Meridius and Sarmaul.

The Truth about HAC DPS

Sad but true. Vaga just outclasses a Zealot, even in DPS over 15km. How bizarre is that.



That'd be T2 amo, actually. Remove THAT, and balance gets mostly fixed!

Try re-running the graphs without T2 amo. The Zealot is fine, T2 amo is what is broken. Barrage amo is ONLY reason why the Vaga has such a long effective range, FFS.

Frools
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.08.26 15:25:00 - [33]
 

http://www.frools.net/eve/hacdps--t1.jpg
not so different tbh

zealot with 5 turrets and zealot with 25m^3 drone bay:
http://www.frools.net/eve/zealot-mod.jpg

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.08.26 15:51:00 - [34]
 

I've long given up trying to explain anything to most people on these forums.

I do have to say though, that whining about ships and modules that are absolutely not in need of any kind of change seems to be Nyxus' forte.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.08.26 16:16:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
I've long given up trying to explain anything to most people on these forums.

I do have to say though, that whining about ships and modules that are absolutely not in need of any kind of change seems to be Nyxus' forte.


Do you fly one? I do, and while it's far from a bad ship, I think it need a little something, compared to most other HAS.

A zealot has some glaring weaknesses:
1/ It has only medium guns, so killing interceptors can be a real pain for it.
2/ Absolute lack of damage variability. It hurts in pvp, where EM tend to be more resisted than any other damage type, and it hurts even more in pve.

With those faults, you'd think that the Zealot dish out a lot of damage, to compensate for the specialisation of it's weapons. But no, it do less DPS than the average HAS.

/me vote for a 25m3 drone bay.

OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar
AnTi.
Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.08.26 16:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
I've long given up trying to explain anything to most people on these forums.

I do have to say though, that whining about ships and modules that are absolutely not in need of any kind of change seems to be Nyxus' forte.


Yeah, guess I should do the same :/

Btw to the person who said you'd be ****ed if a zealot couldnt kill a t1 cruiser, the fact that it's tech 1 is irrelivent. My Rupture 6k armor and 90% EM resist, and didn't last too long. Thats a better tank than most Deimos would have..

OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar
AnTi.
Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.08.26 16:52:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 26/08/2006 16:52:02
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan
oBut as far as the Zealot goes it has extremely good Functional DPS as well as at the very *least* a 4 slot armor tank with HAC resist + 3 damage mods, not to mention the essential 3 mids.



And where do you put cap-related mods? For the Zealot to sustain AB+weapons+tank for more than a minute, you need one cap relay. Add a fifth turret, and you need two for a functional setup.

So, 2 damage mods, 2 cap relays, that leave 1 slot for the repairer and 2 for hardening. Zealot tank still uber? give me a break, a Vagabbond with large extender + Invul field II will be just as good, if not better.


Um, well, you seem to have formulated a rather horrible setup assuming 5 turrets, how taht is relevent, i will never know.

If you cant figure out a good fitting for the Zealot, then that is your fault, has notihng to do with the ship, and also another thing that points to you knowing absolutely nothing about fittings is how you suggested a Vaga with an extender and invuln.... lol.

FOR ALL OF YOU: If you think the Zealot sucks, and a Vaga/Ishtar etc would kick the crap out of it any day wha wha then TRAIN FOR A VAGABOND AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THINGS YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT.

Thank you.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.08.26 16:56:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Frools
http://www.frools.net/eve/hacdps--t1.jpg
not so different tbh

zealot with 5 turrets and zealot with 25m^3 drone bay:
http://www.frools.net/eve/zealot-mod.jpg


LinkyfiedWink

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.08.26 17:48:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
I've long given up trying to explain anything to most people on these forums.

I do have to say though, that whining about ships and modules that are absolutely not in need of any kind of change seems to be Nyxus' forte.


Thats funny, considering those graphs were put together by Sarmaul and Meridius. Not me. Still hosted by them as well if you care to go look. But I don't mind people personally insulting me when they can't come up with a cogent, well reasoned counter argument.

Ad Hominum attacks just lend veracity to points that can't be disputed any other way.

Maya - while T2 ammo may be unbalanced (you know that I personally agree with you wholeheartedly that it is) it is in the game and therefore much be taken into account, especially since there has been NO indication by any dev anywhere that it will be adjusted. But that aside, as Frools graphs show, even T1 ammo shows the imbalance. The Turret Race's specialty one trick pony can't even do it's one trick well.

Nyxus

Bratak Matamulk
Posted - 2006.08.26 18:20:00 - [40]
 

Funniest thing about this post is the graph generated doesnt even include the eagle or muninn...that makes me laugh. The hacs that arent even considered to be hacs! One would initially say that they only serve a long range purpose...but both can be setup short range too.

I have no preference as i fly all four races anyway...just thought it comical.

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.26 18:31:00 - [41]
 

Zealot needs a fifths turret. After going from 6 heatsinks pre-RMR to 3...damage output makes me cry.
As for Orangeguything, I would sincerely hope a HAC could kill a Rupture...a good inty could do it.

Omen- Amazing looking ship, againt with the stackinng nerf. But honestly more cpu/grid and another turret slot.
I would use it over a nos anyday.

The rest of amarr ships? Well Ill leave those problems to be resolved by the 70 page thread.

Tubuku
Minmatar
Damage Unlimited Inc
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
Posted - 2006.08.26 18:41:00 - [42]
 

Perhaps I'm misreading this graph or missing a really signifigant point here but isn't the only range a Vaga would outdamage a Zealot, using scorch, inside faction web range and then only if they used a fitting not normally used and dumped their drones?


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.26 18:53:00 - [43]
 

A Zealot has no dronebay...

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.26 18:57:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Bratak Matamulk
Funniest thing about this post is the graph generated doesnt even include the eagle or muninn...that makes me laugh. The hacs that arent even considered to be hacs! One would initially say that they only serve a long range purpose...but both can be setup short range too.

I have no preference as i fly all four races anyway...just thought it comical.


And I just thought it was comical that you forgot to mention the Sacrilege Laughing

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:18:00 - [45]
 

Every single factions "higher tier" HAC is cheaper/less used/worse than the "lower tier" HAC. So the surprise is more why the deimos is added there - perhaps to shop how huge (too huge) the dps potential of the Ishtar is.

(Yes, yes, both need HAC 1, but you know what I mean Razz)

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:26:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: OrangeAfroMan

Um, well, you seem to have formulated a rather horrible setup assuming 5 turrets, how taht is relevent, i will never know.



And what exactly is wrong with the low slot fit I suggested? Flaming is easy, and I notice you didn't suggest anything. How would YOU setup a 5-turrets zealot, mister "I-know-all-about-fittings"?

Originally by: OrangeAfroMan

If you cant figure out a good fitting for the Zealot, then that is your fault, has notihng to do with the ship, and also another thing that points to you knowing absolutely nothing about fittings is how you suggested a Vaga with an extender and invuln.... lol.



Again, explain what is wrong with that on a vaggabond.

I used Zealots for more than 6 months for various purposes and only lost one. So my fits must not be that bad.

O Olho
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:44:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: O Olho on 26/08/2006 19:44:24
Boost the zealot please!

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Tubuku
Perhaps I'm misreading this graph or missing a really signifigant point here but isn't the only range a Vaga would outdamage a Zealot, using scorch, inside faction web range and then only if they used a fitting not normally used and dumped their drones?




On scorch Zealot outdamages the Vagabond beyond 13.5km or so. This does not include Hail becauase of speed negative, but a Hail Vaga would far surpass the scorch Zealot. Yes, it includes the drone bays of all ships, since they can do damage as well as ecm, etc. 425's were originally chosen by Meri and Sarmaul to make the comparison as "apples to apples" as possible since all turrets listed are comparable. A vaga only uses 220s because it wants to fit oversized extenders.

Frools did use 220s in his comparison (thanks frools!) using T1 Ammo.

Zealot vs Vagabond: Options of 5 turret Zealot or Dronebay Zealot included

Here you can see that a Zealot as of today using T1 ammo can outdamage a Vagabond between 12km and 13.5km. Ya for the turret race.

Zealot needs some love tbh.

Nyxus

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:48:00 - [49]
 

If it was a choice between a 5th turret and a dronebay though..id pick the turret.

Frools
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.08.26 19:48:00 - [50]
 

yea i try to do realistic setups as much as possible in the graphs, so no neutron deimos or 425mm + heavy launcher vaga as no-one really flies them

it just so happens the zealots max damage fit is the common fit and it still not as good

personally i'd like to see the zealot get a 25m^3 drone bay rather than a 5th turret slot
gives you the option of doing extra damage but lets you go with ecm or webber drones or whatever you like, lot more flexible

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.08.26 20:18:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2006 20:22:17
Originally by: Frools
personally i'd like to see the zealot get a 25m^3 drone bay rather than a 5th turret slot
At some point, not so long ago, light drones were only worth using as anti-fof and npc decoys... and there were no t2 ammos either. Back then, the zealot outdamaged the vagabond at almost any range. Of course, things changed, and a 25m drone bay is now much more significant.

NB.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.26 20:38:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: korrey
If it was a choice between a 5th turret and a dronebay though..id pick the turret.

But where would you place that turret? I don't want to mess with my zealots dazzling beauty.

Frools
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.08.26 21:15:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2006 20:22:17
At some point, not so long ago, light drones were only worth using as anti-fof and npc decoys... and there were no t2 ammos either. Back then, the zealot outdamaged the vagabond at almost any range. Of course, things changed, and a 25m drone bay is now much more significant.

NB.

i know, thats why i'd like to see the zealot get 25m^3 drone bay Laughing

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.08.26 22:33:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Harry Voyager on 26/08/2006 22:37:42
5x Warrior II's with Combat drones lvl 5, Drone Spec 5, and Drone Interfacing 5, in a 900m/s orbit around a 125m target deal 80.27 dps

1x Heavy Pulse II, using Conflagration, on a Zealot, with perfect gunnery and perfect HAC skills, firing at a 125m target with a transverse of 10m/s, from a range of 5km to 10km deals a *maximum* dps of 67.75

You guys are so barking up the wrong tree.

Short version:

5x T2 Drones: 80dps
1x T2 HPulse: 68dps

Drones ftw

Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.08.26 22:38:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Tasty Burger on 26/08/2006 22:44:58
Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 26/08/2006 00:07:58
I would just like to add these to small bits of info curtesy of Meridius and Sarmaul.

The Truth about HAC DPS

Sad but true. Vaga just outclasses a Zealot, even in DPS over 15km. How bizarre is that.

Here is a Zealot with 5 turrets intead of 4.

Much better balance with 5 Turret Zealot.

Zealot should have 5 turrets, and so should the Omen. And enough grid/cpu to fit it. In the old world of 8 Heatsinks, 4 was fine. Today it is not.

Nyxus



So you're saying that the zealot should always be the second-most damaging HAC, able to choose between scorch and conflag at will? Sorry thats stupid.

The only thing the Zealot needs is a 15 or 20m3 drone bay to give it more flexibility. Not another turret.

On another note, if there was no barrage, the vaga would not be nearly as good because it doesn't do spectacular damage, can't tank extraordinarily well (yeah extenders blablabla). Its only real strength is its speed. If there was a wcs nerf it would lose its primary strength, which is its guerilla attributes, being able to strike fast and run away from reinforcements. I think the Vagabond is the ship right now that most fulfills its mission, that doesn't make it overpowered. If the vagabond loses barrage and/or wcs strength, it would need to be compensated in some other way to make up for its obvious weaknesses (HP, capacitor, maybe increased damage. Close range ships should do more damage than medium ranged ships like a zealot.)

KilROCK
Minmatar
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Deus Ex.
Posted - 2006.08.26 22:40:00 - [56]
 

You might want to be realistic skill wise, when comparing a amarrian pilot drone skills to his gunnery skills.

There's no way in hell they'll train that..
So i guess the DPS comes closer to the 5th turret.

Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Posted - 2006.08.26 22:42:00 - [57]
 

I don't think the Zealot should get the drone bay because it SHOULDN'T be more flexible...it should be the inflexible ship that simply excels at outdamaging and mostly outtanking other ships, at the expense of being pigeonholed into a very limited function. However, it's pretty much already paying that price without getting the benefit of outdamaging and tanking much of anything.

Frools
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.08.26 23:17:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager

5x T2 Drones: 80dps
1x T2 HPulse: 68dps

Drones ftw

what happens when you add the 'standard' 2-3 sinks on a zealot

Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Posted - 2006.08.26 23:40:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Frools
Originally by: Harry Voyager

5x T2 Drones: 80dps
1x T2 HPulse: 68dps

Drones ftw
what happens when you add the 'standard' 2-3 sinks on a zealot
I don't know the stacking penalties, but the FIRST heat sink brings it to 83.6 DPS.

Tubuku
Minmatar
Damage Unlimited Inc
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
Posted - 2006.08.27 00:00:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Tubuku
Stuff ...


On scorch Zealot outdamages the Vagabond beyond 13.5km or so. This does not include Hail becauase of speed negative, but a Hail Vaga would far surpass the scorch Zealot. Yes, it includes the drone bays of all ships, since they can do damage as well as ecm, etc. 425's were originally chosen by Meri and Sarmaul to make the comparison as "apples to apples" as possible since all turrets listed are comparable. A vaga only uses 220s because it wants to fit oversized extenders.

Frools did use 220s in his comparison (thanks frools!) using T1 Ammo.

Zealot vs Vagabond: Options of 5 turret Zealot or Dronebay Zealot included

Here you can see that a Zealot as of today using T1 ammo can outdamage a Vagabond between 12km and 13.5km. Ya for the turret race.

Zealot needs some love tbh.

Nyxus



This whole topic is all about theorycraft and spreadsheetitis and doesn't even bear a nodding resemblance to what really occurs in Eve. The only things that really make a Vaga viable are Barrage for the added falloff, stabs for GTFO time and intylike speed (yay faction mwd's and snake implants). Without any one of those, with the exception of snake implants, they'd be the red headed stepchild of HAC's. Is the general idea that a matar ship might actually be good in VERY specific conditions (solo or in a small gang) at a VERY high cost that offensive?

Yes, they use 220's so they can fit extenders and they do so because there's no other viable option for "tanking". Lock down a Vaga (the laughter goes here) and it's an easy kill as they have no "tank" other than speed and shield regen. No, most don't fit 3 dmg mods because they need nano's and stabs to do what they're designed to do. No, they don't drop drones because either they get in and out quickly or they're dead most of the time. Yes, a Hail Vaga would far surpass a scorch Zealot for the 10 seconds it was alive but how would it fair against a conflag Zealot?

BTW, if a Vaga is using EMP out of Med AC's they're not hitting you often or for very much damage at any range beyond 10k and if they're inside 12-13k they have a deathwish or far, far to much ISK on their hands.

Not aiming at you here Nyxus but you're the one that posted the graphs and frankly they look like BS to me.

Oh ya, Ya for the proj race. They're turrets as well. Twisted Evil


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only