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HydraJennie
Posted - 2006.07.31 01:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:31:28
I was thinking of how to counter ecm users because getting jammed really ruins the fight for me, it removes most of my chances of winning and its totally chance based, its like rolling a dice to see who wins.

So i considered adding some of those new upgraded sensor upgrading modules to both my mid and lo slots, but even with 3 of those fitted my chances of being jammed are still very high, thats when it hit me, by increasing my sensor strength all i am achieving is a better chance to not get jammed, nothing more, why dont i fit jammers myself instead, if i can lock my enemy and jam him before he jams me, that way i wont get jammed, and as a bonus my enemy is jammed instead.

Pros of fitting eccm ship sensor upgrading modules - slightly better chance to not be jammed.

Cons - none.

Pros of fitting jammers myself - better chance of not being jammed due to the fact that i may be able to jam my enemy before he jams me which is another plus because now hes jammed he cant even shoot me

Cons - none.

This is proof enough that jamming is messed up, when the defensive modules against jamming are not being used, instead the best defense against jamming is, JAMMING!

HydraJennie
Posted - 2006.07.31 01:34:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:35:04
I believe the effect of jamming, ie totally losing the ability to being able to lock is to overpowering, which is why fitting jammers is better than fitting antijamming modules, either they need to make it so fitting 2-3 of those modules will make you immune to jamming totally, or they need to nerf the effect of jamming, because jamming is what wins small scale fights.

Jamming is somewhat similar to what stun was in DAOC, it removes your ability to fight back and its totally chanced based, its not fun!

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2006.07.31 01:37:00 - [3]
 

As soon as it's not a 1on1 anymore and there are more ships jamming you your argument doesn't hold any water.

HydraJennie
Posted - 2006.07.31 01:39:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:43:09
Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:42:10

Originally by: Cohkka
As soon as it's not a 1on1 anymore and there are more ships jamming you your argument doesn't hold any water.



Yes it does, in a 5 v 5, if one side has lots of sensor upgrading modules and one side has all jammers, the side with all jammers will win, whereas if both sides have all jammers, anyone could win it, its all down to the luck of the jam!

The side with all sensor upgrading modules has no chance atall of jamming the other side, however, however they are still going to get jammed themselves at least a few times which will lose them the fight. If both sides had all jammers, then it would be anyones game. So basically, if they had fit jamming modules instead of antijamming modules, they would have a much better chance of winning because they not only gain the chance to avoid being jammed, but the gain the chance to jam the enemy aswell.

HydraJennie
Posted - 2006.07.31 01:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:48:38
Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:48:19
Heres another situation, group a has 5 ships, or you could even say 10, group b also has 5 or 10 ships.

group a has all antijamming modules fitted, whereas group b is loaded with jammers.

The fight starts, dispite their antijamming modules, quite a few of group a are being jammed, group b are not getting jammed atall because group a didnt fit jammers, some of the people from group a are finding themselves unable to lock for a lot of the fight whilst group b never have any problems with losing locks so they can keep their dps up, result = group b wins, the group with jammers wins.

group a grab some more ships and this time they fit jamming modules instead, now both groups are using jamming modules and start fighting again, both people in group a and group b get jammed but its anyones fight, its all down to the luck of the jams.

HydraJennie
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:00:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 02:03:13
So the overall result is, fit jammers if you want to win, or ccp could change the way that jamming works because it is way to overpowered in its current form.

Jamming the most overpowered of all the EW, why is this? Because jammers effect all modules that require targetting, which is pretty much most of the modules that play the biggest role in all fights, if you get jammed, in most situations you are going to lose, something with such an effect should in no way be chance based like it is now, EVE small scale skirmishes have literally turned into a game where you roll the dice, if you get a 4 or above, you win, you can increase dice rolls by fitting more jammers, one jammer = one dice roll.

As i explained above, you'd have to be mad to use modules that boost your sensor strength against jamming instead of just fitting jammers yourself, jammers do exactly what antijammers do and more, they increase your chance of not being jammed and they disable your opponent at the same time, if your opponent has jammers but you or someone else is jamming him, then he cant jam you. Better to have a chance to not be jammed and to jam your opponent than just have a chance to not be jammed.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:15:00 - [7]
 

You realy dont need to prove any point, everyone is pretty much in agreement its overpowered, no need to provide examples and arguements.

Blind Man
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:19:00 - [8]
 

multispecs.
are.
the.
problem.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:30:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Blind Man
multispecs.
are.
the.
problem.


total.
jam.
is.
the.
problem.

Multispecs are fashionable to pick on, sure, but if anything is a problem its the racials because a far higher strenght on them at presnt has to be balanced. If you bring them down to no more than 20% more than the multi, with 15% less vs otehr races and equivalent cap usage it works much better.

The main problem, though, is the nature of total jamming being overpowered in itself.

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:33:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Arkanor on 31/07/2006 02:35:28
Originally by: Blind Man
multispecs.
are.
the.
problem.


Are you sure? I jammed my friend's active ECCM merlin with 1 ladar jammer. Twice in a row.

Took a few cycles before it took effect though.

EDIT: What Maya said, pretty much, total shutdown sucks.

jamesw
Omniscient Order
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.07.31 02:34:00 - [11]
 

ive said it before and i'll say it again - multispecs should not jam, only break target locks


Nomen Nescio
Posted - 2006.07.31 03:33:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 31/07/2006 03:34:08
Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 31/07/2006 03:33:39
Boolean Jamming (yes or no) as it is not is the problem. It sucks.

Jamming should be applied on you high slot mods indpendently:


  • You have 5 hight slots with 4 guns and 1 nos fitted.

  • Enemy runs a jam on you

  • Each 5 hight slots are rolling dice independently

  • As a result you have 2 guns and the nos jammed (can't be activated) for the duration of the cycle

  • 2 other guns are still blazing

  • Very important: after rolling posivite dice (gun didnt jam), the gun should have immunity to the jam for the time of the cycle. Such that a lot of ecm together from dozen of ships wont jam them, otherwise ppl will have even more ecm.




PS

I would go even beyond that. I would roll die on ALL slots from low to high. And all mods in the game would have new stat "interference strength" which would be 50% of the value. Second half of the value would be ship sensor strength. And type of the ship sensors (race) would work as it does now.

Such that we would have for instance:


  • Muni ship, Ladar 20 points

  • Nanofiber structure, interference strength 100 (nothing to interfere :)

  • Low slot effective strength: (20 + 100) / 2 = 60 points

  • Each time enemy ecm hits the ship this low slot has N / 60 chance be knocked out for a cycle.

  • Or

  • Same ship but warp scrambler, interference strength 5

  • Effective strength 12.5

  • or

  • Armor rep.....



Can you get the picture? You can fight against ecm, will it matter? Yeah. Will it own? Probably you will know then you armor rep will be jammed together with 2 wcs :)

Point is... now EW sucks.

Kldraina
Posted - 2006.07.31 03:54:00 - [13]
 

With current ECCM strength, an ECCM + ECM vs 2x ECM gives a slight advantage to the one with ECCM + ECM, if using a T2 ECCM, or a slight disadvantage with a T1 ECCM. (assuming the ECM modules are all of equal strength)

With 2 ECCM + 1 ECM vs 3 ECM, the advantage goes to the ECCM ship (still only a small advantage). Doesn't matter whether it is T1 or T2 ECCM.

However, 2 ECM vs 2 ECCM generally gives the advantage to the ECM ship. Since having no ECM means the other ship will never be jammed.

Bloodst0ne
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.07.31 03:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
You realy dont need to prove any point, everyone is pretty much in agreement its overpowered, no need to provide examples and arguements.


QFT

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2006.07.31 04:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: HydraJennie
Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:31:28
I was thinking of how to counter ecm users because getting jammed really ruins the fight for me, it removes most of my chances of winning and its totally chance based, its like rolling a dice to see who wins.

So i considered adding some of those new upgraded sensor upgrading modules to both my mid and lo slots, but even with 3 of those fitted my chances of being jammed are still very high, thats when it hit me, by increasing my sensor strength all i am achieving is a better chance to not get jammed, nothing more, why dont i fit jammers myself instead, if i can lock my enemy and jam him before he jams me, that way i wont get jammed, and as a bonus my enemy is jammed instead.

Pros of fitting eccm ship sensor upgrading modules - slightly better chance to not be jammed.

Cons - none.

Pros of fitting jammers myself - better chance of not being jammed due to the fact that i may be able to jam my enemy before he jams me which is another plus because now hes jammed he cant even shoot me

Cons - none.

This is proof enough that jamming is messed up, when the defensive modules against jamming are not being used, instead the best defense against jamming is, JAMMING!


Fly a battleship.
ECM is less effective on them because they have a higher signal strength, therefore the ECCM actually does something.

To prove this out I fitted 4 initiated multispecs on my Dominix and tried to jam my buddy in a raven with one (1) eccm mod fitted. Half an hour later and he was still never jammed. Without the ECCM he was jammed 1 out of 2-3 cycles with 4 IM's. I can't speak to racial jammers because we didn't try it.

Fast forward to an encounter with a vaga. 2 initiated multispecs kept him jammed full time, the other two IM's kept the two intys with him jammed nearly full time.

A cruiser will be jammed easily by ecm, intys overwhelmed. a vaga has a 14 base ladar strength, the raven has 22 gravimetric. Which one will 80% help more?

ECCM does work, the only issue is you can't polish a turd. If your ship has weak signal strength adding a percentage to it doesn't help all that much.

If the vaga had fitted ECCM he'd have had a little more than what a base raven does. It would have helped but not nearly as well as it did the Raven.

It's like the effect to power grid of fitting a reactor control unit to a frig with 38 power grid. Exaggerated example, but hopefully you see what I mean.

If you are in a cruiser, fitting ECM is definitely the right thing to do if you want to counter ECM. ECCM won't help much. In a battleship, ECCM is quite effective. A battleship will almost always out ECM you if you are in a cruiser trying to ECM him 1v1, especially if the BS has more than one, you are using a multispec, and your cruiser has no jamming bonuses.

If the BS has got ECCM fitted, and you are using a multispec, forget about it.

-Kal

Gripen
Posted - 2006.07.31 04:36:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Gripen on 31/07/2006 04:38:39
Edited by: Gripen on 31/07/2006 04:37:15
Originally by: HydraJennie
Pros of fitting eccm ship sensor upgrading modules - slightly better chance to not be jammed.

Cons - none.

Pros of fitting jammers myself - better chance of not being jammed due to the fact that i may be able to jam my enemy before he jams me which is another plus because now hes jammed he cant even shoot me

Cons - none.


You've done your homework wrong.

Example #1 - Apoc vs Apoc
a) Both apocs fit single multispectral jammers.

25% probability that you jam enemy
50% probability that you both fail
25% probability that enemy jams you

75% is acceptable for you (you jam or no one jams)

b) Your apoc fitted with ECCM, second fits multispectral

85.3% probability that enemy jammer fails
14.7% probability that enemy jams you

Example #2 - Apoc vs Scorp with 6 multispectrals
a) You fit multispectral

12.7% probability that you jam enemy
6% probability that you both fail
81.3% probability that enemy jams you

18.7% is acceptable for you (you jam or no one jams)

b) You fit ECCM

31.3% probability that enemy jammers fails
68.7% probability that enemy jams you

Above calculations done for Signal Dispersion IV, Caldari BS IV, T2 Jammer, Conjuncive ECCM, and assumption that both ships have equal chances to acquire first lock.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.07.31 04:39:00 - [17]
 

I frankly think that ECM should be changed to affect only interface items.

Like Caldari ECM would make it look like you were taking damage when you werent, Gallente ECM would make your modules disappear and reappear at different locations on the screen (And disable hotkeys), Amarr ECM would start playing recordings of people speaking (Even if you have sound turned off) and voices chatting, Minmater ECM would make distances appear wrong on the Overview/main game screen.

Jenny Firespit
Posted - 2006.07.31 05:17:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jenny Firespit on 31/07/2006 05:22:31
Edited by: Jenny Firespit on 31/07/2006 05:19:41
Edited by: Jenny Firespit on 31/07/2006 05:18:39
Originally by: Kalixa Hihro
Originally by: HydraJennie
Edited by: HydraJennie on 31/07/2006 01:31:28
I was thinking of how to counter ecm users because getting jammed really ruins the fight for me, it removes most of my chances of winning and its totally chance based, its like rolling a dice to see who wins.

So i considered adding some of those new upgraded sensor upgrading modules to both my mid and lo slots, but even with 3 of those fitted my chances of being jammed are still very high, thats when it hit me, by increasing my sensor strength all i am achieving is a better chance to not get jammed, nothing more, why dont i fit jammers myself instead, if i can lock my enemy and jam him before he jams me, that way i wont get jammed, and as a bonus my enemy is jammed instead.

Pros of fitting eccm ship sensor upgrading modules - slightly better chance to not be jammed.

Cons - none.

Pros of fitting jammers myself - better chance of not being jammed due to the fact that i may be able to jam my enemy before he jams me which is another plus because now hes jammed he cant even shoot me

Cons - none.

This is proof enough that jamming is messed up, when the defensive modules against jamming are not being used, instead the best defense against jamming is, JAMMING!


Fly a battleship.
ECM is less effective on them because they have a higher signal strength, therefore the ECCM actually does something.

To prove this out I fitted 4 initiated multispecs on my Dominix and tried to jam my buddy in a raven with one (1) eccm mod fitted. Half an hour later and he was still never jammed. Without the ECCM he was jammed 1 out of 2-3 cycles with 4 IM's. I can't speak to racial jammers because we didn't try it.

Fast forward to an encounter with a vaga. 2 initiated multispecs kept him jammed full time, the other two IM's kept the two intys with him jammed nearly full time.

A cruiser will be jammed easily by ecm, intys overwhelmed. a vaga has a 14 base ladar strength, the raven has 22 gravimetric. Which one will 80% help more?

ECCM does work, the only issue is you can't polish a turd. If your ship has weak signal strength adding a percentage to it doesn't help all that much.

If the vaga had fitted ECCM he'd have had a little more than what a base raven does. It would have helped but not nearly as well as it did the Raven.

It's like the effect to power grid of fitting a reactor control unit to a frig with 38 power grid. Exaggerated example, but hopefully you see what I mean.

If you are in a cruiser, fitting ECM is definitely the right thing to do if you want to counter ECM. ECCM won't help much. In a battleship, ECCM is quite effective. A battleship will almost always out ECM you if you are in a cruiser trying to ECM him 1v1, especially if the BS has more than one, you are using a multispec, and your cruiser has no jamming bonuses.

If the BS has got ECCM fitted, and you are using a multispec, forget about it.

-Kal


Hah yeah right, i had a recon ship, YES A RECON SHIP WITH MUCH HIGHER SENSOR THAN ANY BATTLSHIP with over 200 sensor strength and a scorp using multispecs jammed me a lot more than he should have (try one multispec in every 10 attempts was a jam. Your BS with 1 eccm would only have about 40-50 sensor strength, the chance of a multispec jamming that is rather high, the chance of 4-5 multispecs jamming that is very very high. Even with 4 mid slot ECCM i was getting jammed a lot.

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.07.31 05:23:00 - [19]
 

what with all the jennys?

now look at a recon, with higher sensor strenght then you likely to ever get on a bs (unless you have that absurd 200 sensor strength)... it will be jammed constantly. Embarassed

Jenny Firespit
Posted - 2006.07.31 05:44:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Weirda
what with all the jennys?

now look at a recon, with higher sensor strenght then you likely to ever get on a bs (unless you have that absurd 200 sensor strength)... it will be jammed constantly. Embarassed


Thats what i just said, 200+ sensor strength on my recon ship, yet a scorpion with multispecs still gets regular jams of on me.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2006.07.31 06:39:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 31/07/2006 06:39:53
My problem with ECM is that it's almost as important for groups to fit them as it is for ships to fit weapons or interceptors to fit MWD's...

Your buggered without them, and a bugger with them... and imho eccm is a waste of a mid.
Currently, there is only 1 race, with 2 ships that support them.. In actual fact, every race should have a ship with bonuses for ECM, not just the gay racial bonuses like target painting or tracking disruptors !? (no doubt useful, but not as vital as having ECM and easily countered)


I say, give ECM the focus that it needs, or Nerf it to kingdom come..Evil or Very Mad

Evelyn Lavi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.31 07:04:00 - [22]
 

Ah, jamming... reminds me of the old days of Star Wars Galaxies, where the only counter to something was usually more of the same.

Such as the jedi gankers. If you didn't like it, you were told to grind one yourself.

Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.31 08:39:00 - [23]
 

Howabout we just give turret based weapon systems a way around ecm? Kinda like missles have FOF? Why not just add a bonus to the already in-game passive targeters to act as a targeting subsystem for turrets. It would still be not as good as FOF because turret ships would have to sacrifice a slot for it... but still. It's a solid solution.

CB Cyrix
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.31 09:17:00 - [24]
 

Jamming is destroying eve.

We should be ablt to blind fire out guns atleast, after all, your on a huge battleship with a turret aiming at a hostile ship... just press fire and it will hit, so who cares if its manually tracking.

Give us a passive tracking high slot device that allows up to act like FOF on missiles. But for turrets!

Vathar
The Wings of Maak
Posted - 2006.07.31 09:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Nomen Nescio
PS

I would go even beyond that. I would roll die on ALL slots from low to high. And all mods in the game would have new stat "interference strength" which would be 50% of the value. Second half of the value would be ship sensor strength. And type of the ship sensors (race) would work as it does now.


Well, if jamming can affect modules that don't require a lock, you're looking into something potentially worse.

And jamming a cargo expander or basically any hull modification makes little sense to me ^^ And what happens when you jam said cargo exp if your hold is full?

Eximius Josari
New Atlantis Tek Corporation
Posted - 2006.07.31 09:51:00 - [26]
 

In all honesty, Sensor Dampening is what 'jamming' should be. Not this 'you are now helpless' stuff.

CB Cyrix
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.31 09:51:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Vathar
Originally by: Nomen Nescio
PS

I would go even beyond that. I would roll die on ALL slots from low to high. And all mods in the game would have new stat "interference strength" which would be 50% of the value. Second half of the value would be ship sensor strength. And type of the ship sensors (race) would work as it does now.


Well, if jamming can affect modules that don't require a lock, you're looking into something potentially worse.

And jamming a cargo expander or basically any hull modification makes little sense to me ^^ And what happens when you jam said cargo exp if your hold is full?


Are you following me lol

Heikki
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2006.07.31 10:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Jenny Firespit
with over 200 sensor strength and a scorp using multispecs jammed me a lot more than he should have
Who cares what happened to you on that summer night fifteen years ago when the moon was full? Or in other words, shouldn't trust yours or other's selective memory and postings.

It's so damn easy to test ECM probabilities properly; how about trying it a bit?

Just get two ships, write down the related strengths, agree on how many tests runs you do (100, 200 or so), and record the results (btw, the lower the individual chance, the more test runs you'll need).

Don't want to see the trouble? That's fine too, but then you just need to trust to the math (or to those who've tried some tests).

Small jamming test I did quite a while ago, with results supporting the given probabilities:
Originally by: Heikki
Blackbird, multi t2, 4x5.76 strength vs Mega of 21 -> 8/50 = 16% (ought to be 27%)
Blackbird, multi t2, 4x5.76 strength vs Mega of 46 -> 4/50 = 8% (ought to be 12.5%)


-Lasse
who thinks jamming is fine except it's too easy to fit 1-2 of those modules on any kind of ship

Jenny Firespit
Posted - 2006.07.31 10:59:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Heikki
Originally by: Jenny Firespit
with over 200 sensor strength and a scorp using multispecs jammed me a lot more than he should have
Who cares what happened to you on that summer night fifteen years ago when the moon was full? Or in other words, shouldn't trust yours or other's selective memory and postings.

It's so damn easy to test ECM probabilities properly; how about trying it a bit?

Just get two ships, write down the related strengths, agree on how many tests runs you do (100, 200 or so), and record the results (btw, the lower the individual chance, the more test runs you'll need).

Don't want to see the trouble? That's fine too, but then you just need to trust to the math (or to those who've tried some tests).

Small jamming test I did quite a while ago, with results supporting the given probabilities:
Originally by: Heikki
Blackbird, multi t2, 4x5.76 strength vs Mega of 21 -> 8/50 = 16% (ought to be 27%)
Blackbird, multi t2, 4x5.76 strength vs Mega of 46 -> 4/50 = 8% (ought to be 12.5%)


-Lasse
who thinks jamming is fine except it's too easy to fit 1-2 of those modules on any kind of ship


Now fit racials into the equation and suddenly your jamming strength is almost doubled, and what are you talking about anyway, testing is exactly what i did, and i found that my 200+ sensor was being jammed a lot by a scorp pilot with multispecs with level 5 signal dispersion, level 4 caldari bs.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.31 11:03:00 - [30]
 

Since its a random thing only statistics can give any proof at all



Do this over 1000 jamming cycles, and then use some statistic math on it and we can discuss


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