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blankseplocked Fix the training time req for t2 Torps (Raven = ez route to t2 dmg)
 
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JabJabVVV
Burger Nip
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:07:00 - [31]
 

As far as I can see re-working the missile skill tree would require a complete re-working of every weapon system (ie splitting the lasers/hybrids/proj into seperate groups so that they did not share support skills). The fact that missile support skills only apply to very few weapon systems whereas gunnary support skills apply to many is something the OP has completely ignored.

Also ignored is the fact that the tech 1 guns share the same skills eg large blasters and rails both only require large hybrid turret where as tech 1 cruise missiles and torpedoes require separate skills, while this closes the skill tree gap somewhat I admit it does not eliminate the gap. However would it really be a good thing if they did just mirror the skill tree for each weapon class? The variety is one of the good things about this game so I say stop whining, go and try out your tech II small and medium guns while you train for tech II large and I'm sure you'll start to love cruisers and frigs, they're good fun, cheap and you'll soon see those extra skill points weren't wasted.

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:16:00 - [32]
 

imo it can be like turret training tree.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:39:00 - [33]
 

LOL! it would suck a bit if i had to train rockets to L5 to be able to use my T2 cruise launchers cuz i don't even have the rocketskill to L1 (so it would take me what? 9 days to get it back again by training rockets to L5?)

Oh and i have standard missiles to L5 and standard spec to L3, heavy to L5 and heavy spec to L4 and cruise to L5 and cruise spec to L3 so BRING THAT MISSILE TREE ON!!! Razz

Oh but if u do, can i have my CM's do instadamage when launched instead of travelling?

Kery Nysell
Caldari
Nysell Incorporated
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:55:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Alahar Sardokh
Originally by: Kery Nysell

And if you want your missiles to actually do some damage, you'll need Guided Missile Precision (useless for torps), Target Navigation Prediction and Warhead Upgrades.

If you want a decent rate of fire, you'll need Rapid Launch, and if you want to have some kind of range, Missile Bombardment and Missile Projections are needed too ...



I'd like to mention that the gunnery skill tree also has support skills (rapid firing, sharpshooter, surgical strike etc), and it's pretty silly not to train them.



Quite true, but you totally ignored that when you made your comparative post ... you also ignored that all the turret types benefit form the gunnery support skills, where the missile support skill don't apply to all the missile types ...


I wonder why I even bother, a lot of people have said much better than me : Missiles are not Turrets, why should they use the same skill tree ?

In the same vein, the shield tanking skills should be brought in line with the armor tanking ones, 2 rank 1 skills and 5 rank 2 skills for armor versus 1 rank 1 skill, 6 rank 2 skills, 1 rank 3 skill and 1 rank 4 skill for shield is so totally unfair and unbalanced ...

Oh wait, maybe they're just different game mechanics ...

CardboardSword42
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:56:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Alahar Sardokh
Originally by: Kery Nysell

And if you want your missiles to actually do some damage, you'll need Guided Missile Precision (useless for torps), Target Navigation Prediction and Warhead Upgrades.

If you want a decent rate of fire, you'll need Rapid Launch, and if you want to have some kind of range, Missile Bombardment and Missile Projections are needed too ...



I'd like to mention that the gunnery skill tree also has support skills (rapid firing, sharpshooter, surgical strike etc), and it's pretty silly not to train them.

Gunnery is rank 1 - Missile Launcher operation is also rank 1
Surgical Strike is rank 4 - Warhead upgrades is rank 5
Sharpshooter is rank 2 - Missile projection is rank 4
Rapid Firing is rank 2 - Rapid launch is also rank 2
Controlled Bursts is rank 2 (doesn't really have a missile equivalent) - Missile Bombardment is also rank 2 (doesn't really have a gunnery equivalent)

People have already mentioned that missiles have to train the short and long range skills seperately whereas turrets only have to train the gun type and then they get both the long and short range turrets. Does this mean turrets need a nerf? No they are different weapons systems and are balanced already, they don't have to be identical

Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:00:00 - [36]
 

High end t2 fitted torp ravens only do about 600dps to balance the advantages missiles have over guns.

Nothing's wrong with the Raven.

If you can't beat them, you're doing it wrong, because i can beat joe average Raven on SiSi in a Tempest with Minmatar battleship level II.




Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:04:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/06/2006 13:09:39
Originally by: Yuki Li
If you can't beat them, you're doing it wrong, because i can beat joe average Raven on SiSi in a Tempest with Minmatar battleship level II.
With average raven skill (missile and ship skills at 3 at most) I could beat a raven specc'ed char on SISI in a 1 vs 1. I didn't even go into structure.

What's your tempest setup by the way ?

NB.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:13:00 - [38]
 

a missile skilltree like turrets would really screw over races who only uses missiles as 2nd weaponsystem (mainly minmatar and gallente)


its already bad enough that we gotta train torp 5 for minni dread naglfar, adding a whole skilltree to that would increase the sp intensity of minnies even more, and nobody can tell me that we arent alreay the most sp needy race of all

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:42:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: HippoKing on 25/06/2006 13:42:29
I would do it this way:

  • Introduce Assault Missiles


  • Announce VERY publically that in 3months, a patch will be released in which the prequestites for t2 missiles will be increased, and if you do not have them, you will be unable to use the launchers.


  • In that patch, once everyone has had fair warning and knows what is coming:

    • Change the skill trees for t2 cruise to:

      • Cruise Missile Specialisation I

        • Cruise Missiles V

        • Heavy Missile Specialisation IV

          • Heavy Missiles V

          • Standard Missile Specialisation IV

            • Standard Missiles V


    • Change the skill trees for t2 torps to:

      • Torpedo Specialisation I

        • Torpedoes V

        • Assault Missile Specialisation IV

          • Assault Missiles V

          • Rocket Specialisation IV

            • Rockets V


  • Laugh at the people who didn't pay attention and missed the changes



edit: that really was horrible list syntax Shocked

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:53:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/06/2006 13:55:56
You need to factor in engineering training times here.

Caldari pilots have more to train in engineering than armour tankers (taking mechanic into account also).

And as said before, the missile support skills take up more time than the gunnery support skills.

Raven pilots are never truly good until they're very specialised.

edit: Also aren't missiles supposed to be a support weapon? Minmatar need to train them too remember.

ramptrick
Caldari
Art of War
Posted - 2006.06.25 14:21:00 - [41]
 

your all a bunch of whinning mofo's, you can train anything you want if it be missles or turrets, stop arguing about stupid things that dont really matter!! enjoy the game.. hehehe aybe its the booze talking anf england kick off in about 40mins!!!! GOOOO england !!!LaughingLaughing

Yual
Minmatar
Reign of the Jabberwock
Posted - 2006.06.25 14:40:00 - [42]
 

I belive this topic contained the relevant #'s, and this line
Originally by: Yual
For Cruise AND Torp launchers and ammo it takes 2,604,000 SP's. For JUST Arties OR AC's plus ammo its 3,436,040. For BOTH Arty and AC its 4,312,080.

sums up the original posters complaint.

Now a good counter point was raised here about the fact that the small missile system took almost 2x the skill points of the small artillery. Tho to be fair he only considered arty vs rockets, arty + AC vs. rockets + std would have been even worse.

But, 250k sp is less than a month(5-16 days depending on stats/implants) of skilling, which is much less comparable to a difference of slightly more than 1.7 million sp.

To the OP: Look at the ammo skill requirements, unlike turrets, missile skill req's are higher on the T2 ammo than the T2 launchers.

inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.06.25 14:41:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
I would do it this way:
Not sure if the 'would' indicates real support for this idea, but that seems like a sensible plan.

I'm still in favour of breaking up the gunnery tree, although I am slightly biased; I'm still training half of it. Laughing

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2006.06.25 15:29:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: 000Hunter000
Oh but if u do, can i have my CM's do instadamage when launched instead of travelling?


Can I have my Rails do full AM damage at 200km (blasters up to 50km respectively)? Can I have my Rails/Blasters hit with every shot regardles of transversal?

Oh, while we're at it: Give Heavy drones 30km range, the Mega more agility and speed and let Gallente be the ECM race.

Basicly this is what YOU want to do with your missiles, and I can pull the same silly arguments for that out of my ass, too!

skull01
Caldari
Jedi High Council
Posted - 2006.06.25 15:40:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: skull01 on 25/06/2006 15:40:54
I always thought that they made the training for tech2 launchers like it is was due to the fact that other races also use missiles, i would hate to have to train, light and heavy spec just to use tech2 cruise launchers on a phoon. Anyway, just a thought.

Tovarishch
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.06.25 15:44:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Tovarishch on 25/06/2006 16:01:35

Give me access to several launcher types by chosing one line of specialization and I'll be happy to agree.

One line of turret specialization gives acceess to multiple turrets (which leads to flexibility in layouts). One line of missile specialization gives you..... (drum roll please) -

Access to one type of missile launcher.

PS. Also, as someone else mentioned, turret users had a very long time to train these skills up before the missile spec skills were even introduced into the game. If missile skills were introduced later with the same training tree it would take a very long time for torpedo and cruise missile specialists to catch up.

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.06.25 16:42:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz
a missile skilltree like turrets would really screw over races who only uses missiles as 2nd weaponsystem (mainly minmatar and gallente)


What u on about ? Minmatar yes but gallante do not have missiles as a secondary weapon just a slot or 2 on a ship doenst make it a secodnary weapon , Gallnate are hybrid and drones and no missile bonus what so everConfused

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.06.25 16:51:00 - [48]
 

/me twists his face in consternation.

On the one hand I had to work hard for my T2 Large Projectiles. On the other hand...Typhoon.

Perhaps Minmatar ships should come with attribute bonuses?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.06.25 18:07:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 25/06/2006 19:09:33
You might think it's nice to rush for those 'uber' t2 torps, but you'll find yourself severely lacking when you realize you've spent close to a month getting something that only affects *one* weapon type.

Then again I have torp/heavy/standard specced and rocket/cruise at 4, so if they add assaults and 'balance' missiles by making peopel spend months of extra training time to use both BS types, it's not going to affetc me much personally, despite the fact that the 'easy t2 damage' comes at the cost of severely reduced versatility.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.06.25 18:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: CardboardSword42

Gunnery is rank 1 - Missile Launcher operation is also rank 1
Surgical Strike is rank 4 - Warhead upgrades is rank 5
Sharpshooter is rank 2 - Missile projection is rank 4
Rapid Firing is rank 2 - Rapid launch is also rank 2
Controlled Bursts is rank 2 (doesn't really have a missile equivalent) - Missile Bombardment is also rank 2 (doesn't really have a gunnery equivalent)


Lets not forget that If you want to spec both frig missile types, you've got to train an rank 1 AND rank 2 skill, AND their specs.

For a turret, you train small whatever turret to V, and then both specs.


People, stop *****ing with the bull**** arguements. Missiles are ONE type of weapon, and if you're going to cry and ***** about how fast they train, then why don't you see how long it takes to spec say, all missiles (we'll say assaults will be rank 3), compared to all of one type of turret?

With support skills to IV, because no sane pilot settles for anything less.


I notice people never seem to ***** about drones being fast and easy to train, despite the fact they are.Wink

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2006.06.25 18:48:00 - [51]
 

Quote:
Gallnate are hybrid and drones and no missile bonus what so ever


Not to take away from the marginal component that missiles play to Gallente ships, but there are a small number which do have missile bonuses. Nemesis, Lachesis, maybe one or two others.

Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.06.25 18:57:00 - [52]
 

i guess SP=skill in eve Wink

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.25 19:02:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: HippoKing on 25/06/2006 19:21:18
cake 4tw

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.06.25 19:11:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Imhotep Khem
/me twists his face in consternation.

On the one hand I had to work hard for my T2 Large Projectiles. On the other hand...Typhoon.

Perhaps Minmatar ships should come with attribute bonuses?



But that would make minmatar useful, and it'd make people play them.Wink

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.06.25 20:33:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Edited by: HippoKing on 25/06/2006 19:21:18
cake 4tw


cake and bree?Very Happy

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.25 20:43:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: HippoKing
cake 4tw


cake and bree?Very Happy


yeah. But I ate all the cAKe, so now I'm eating cookies. its just not the same Evil or Very Mad

Justcause
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.06.25 21:12:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Kery Nysell
Originally by: Alahar Sardokh
Absolutely signed.

Eg. there are 2 types of lasers, pulse and beam. And there are also two types of torpedoes (long range and high dmg).
Let's say i have no skills and i want to use t2 large pulse and beam lasers, and i'm not interested in using smaller guns, i go straight for battleships. I have to train the following skills:

Gunnery V
Small energy turret V
Medium energy turret V
Large energy turret V
small pulse laser spec IV
medium pulse laser spec IV
large pulse laser spec I
small beam laser spec IV
medium beam laser spec IV
large beam laser spec I
Sharpshooter V
Motion prediction V

Let's say i want to be able to use both types of torpedoes (javelin and rage):

missile launcher op V
standard missiles III
heavy missiles III
torpedoes V
torpedo specialization I

If i also want to use t2 cruises (both precision and the other) i will need to train (in addition):

cruise missiles V
cruise missile specialization I

huh?




And if you want your missiles to actually do some damage, you'll need Guided Missile Precision (useless for torps), Target Navigation Prediction and Warhead Upgrades.

If you want a decent rate of fire, you'll need Rapid Launch, and if you want to have some kind of range, Missile Bombardment and Missile Projections are needed too ...

Missiles and turrets are two totally different types of weaponry, with different game mechanics behind them, why should they have the same training trees ?




hahahaha now aint u the dumb **** them stats was only to use t2 blasters IF u want to use t2 RAILS u need ANOTHER skill maxed and u need to get small rail spez 4 and med rail spez 4 so still requires more time =)
and the only reason why i havent worked out how long it wud take to train is cause u can c the HUGE diffence between the turrent training and missile
and i repeat im not asking to nerf the raven im asking fix the skill tree

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.25 21:19:00 - [58]
 

Its sad that the single biggest hinderance to an otherwise sensible argument is the guy who suggested it (well, this time at least. Its been up before. Several times) Evil or Very Mad

Frakri Hogsto
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.06.25 21:23:00 - [59]
 

hey look, I can sing:

V lesu rodilasj jolochka!, i kto ejo rodil?, chetire pjanih ezika i zelenij krokodil!

Amarraion
Xze0n
Posted - 2006.06.25 21:24:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: CardboardSword42

Gunnery is rank 1 - Missile Launcher operation is also rank 1
Surgical Strike is rank 4 - Warhead upgrades is rank 5
Sharpshooter is rank 2 - Missile projection is rank 4
Rapid Firing is rank 2 - Rapid launch is also rank 2
Controlled Bursts is rank 2 (doesn't really have a missile equivalent) - Missile Bombardment is also rank 2 (doesn't really have a gunnery equivalent)


Lets not forget that If you want to spec both frig missile types, you've got to train an rank 1 AND rank 2 skill, AND their specs.

For a turret, you train small whatever turret to V, and then both specs.


People, stop *****ing with the bull**** arguements. Missiles are ONE type of weapon, and if you're going to cry and ***** about how fast they train, then why don't you see how long it takes to spec say, all missiles (we'll say assaults will be rank 3), compared to all of one type of turret?

With support skills to IV, because no sane pilot settles for anything less.


I notice people never seem to ***** about drones being fast and easy to train, despite the fact they are.Wink


yor sir are a twit, it took me just 20-30ish days to get all my missile support skills to lvl 4 on my carebear alt.
now i know wat i want to use and its t2 cruise missiles for my stealth bomber so i dont need to train light missile 5 or heavy 5 skip that crap dont need torps skip that soo in around 50ish days i got t2 cruise doing nice damage

you cant do that with turrents its not a thing where u can train small and medium to lvl 3 do gunnery 5 and hop right to L lvl 5 n jump to all the spez skills im shocked that alot of u cant see that


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