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The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:32:00 - [601]
 

To the guy saying that a Crusader isn't viable cause it only has two mids, l2p..

Crusader is today by far the better ceptor than the malediction, and that is because it can fit 4 dual light beams II, mount Aurora and orbit out of web range, nos range too if you buy a t2 disruptor. And it can keep all mods on if you use the lows for CPR's instead of tank. In any fleet fight, it's excellent for shooting hostile ceptors, dictors, and some t1 cruisers.

The only ceptor beating it is the Crow, dunno how the new Malediction with lights would do vs Crow tbh, but I want to find out.

I like the Sac too, were able to grab two before the prices skyrocketed. I gotta train missiles as well, I have 8k SP.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:34:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 15:16:59
To re-iterate, with percentages, these are the percentage numbers of direct combat T2 ships...

Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship):
Laser: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25%
Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36%
Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25%
Missile: 1/1/1/1/1 = 14%

Post-nerf:
Laser: 1/0/1/1/1 = 11%
Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36%
Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25%
Missile: 2/2/2/2/2 = 28%

Why T2 missile boats needs to be boosted by sacrificing laser boats when hybrids make up more than a third of the total is beyond me.....



Now let us normalize your numbers for races that use said weapon types as significant weapon system:

Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship):
Laser - Amarr = 25%
Hybrid - Caldari: 18%
Hybrid - Gallente: 18%
Projectile - Minmatar = 25%
Missile - Caldari = 7%
Missile - Amarr = 7%

Post-nerf:
Laser - Amarr = 11%
Hybrid - Caldari = 18%
Hybrid - Gallente = 18%
Projectile - Minmatar = 25%
Missile - Caldari = 14%
Missile - Amarr = 14%

(I only used your numbers and divided by races, if the exact numbers yield something significantly different please do them)

So really, looks relatively fine to me. Make some minmatar ships use lasers and it will be perfect. Very Happy

Valdimir Therin
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:35:00 - [603]
 

Quote:
the Khanid ships had a CHOICE between missiles/turrets


Not really, they didnt.

Sac on live for example:
4x turret slots despite having 6 high slots.

2x damage bonus for skills on lasers, as opposed to 3 on the zealot, and the difference in slots mean the sacrilege didn't even have a stronger tank.

So on the face of it, its entirely inferior. It is the second-rate choice that is only flown because it is until today markedly cheaper than the zealot.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:39:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
So you're claiming you're not using manipulation????

You forgot to include this part of my post (which came just after the part you quoted):...


Why are you claiming those numbers are correct when they are quite obviously aren't?

Quote:
Given the way balancing goes, the weapon system that has 4 out of 36 of the T2 combat boat doesn't have a good chance of having usable ships.
Hybrid/missile has 23 out of the 36 available ships, thus a much better chance....


There is no "chance" per weapon system for "good" and "bad" ships. You are creating fantasy scenarios now.

There are only 2 t2 ships total which have a drone bonus without the recons, for example. Ishkur and ishtar.
Funnily enough both are pretty good, even though they have the most limited selection of all t2 ships.

Quote:
And yes, I'm ignoring T1 ships completely since they have no relevance in balancing the T2 ships between weapon systems.....


Balance does not happen in only one area. Especially since you are not arguing about the performance balance between ships but of the distribution balance between missiles and turrets.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:39:00 - [605]
 

Originally by: Valdimir Therin
Not really, they didnt.

Sac on live for example:
4x turret slots despite having 6 high slots.

2x damage bonus for skills on lasers, as opposed to 3 on the zealot, and the difference in slots mean the sacrilege didn't even have a stronger tank.

So on the face of it, its entirely inferior. It is the second-rate choice that is only flown because it is until today markedly cheaper than the zealot.


Ofcourse we could pick apart every ship and see what happens, like i did with the interdictor(gonna be only one and it's a missile boat? Shocked), but we'd have a long night.

I'm trying to show people that this isn't all good. The problem with people is if tey think something is good, nothing can't be bad. Much like with those people who only see bad.

I allready said this is probably, in the long run, a good way to go and in the overall, yes, can see it being a good thing. but f*ck me does it change everything i planned and limit my choices options for the future.

I thought i didn't have to bother with missiles, but if i want to fly an interdictor...guess what? Very Happy

Frothgar
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:41:00 - [606]
 

Really loving the change.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:45:00 - [607]
 

Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 16:45:26
Did forget to say that the caldari money hogging bastards(love you guys) with missile/launcher bpo's must be celebrating in lonetrek Laughing

Lord Loom
Loom Service
Posted - 2007.07.29 16:48:00 - [608]
 

Originally by: Tebis
Ugh.. These changes are ruining some of laser users best tanking ships .. you say missiles are better due to the fact that you can dedicate more cap to tanking.. that might be true.. but what about those of us who are laser specialists.. I have 0 sp in missiles.. never liked missiles and do not care to train them.. but now a trusty tanking HAC (the sacrilege) is turned into a missile boat .. yes it still has an awesome tank.. but you need missiles to use it efficiently.. and no current laser problems are fixed.. just another slam to laser users.. why oh why do you hate us CCP

train missiles? adapt or die? and seriously, "oh noes diversity, hills, run, etc.!"?

some days training and your suckrilege turns into a better ship, what's so bad about this?

Tebis
BlackTalon Mining Corp
G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E
Posted - 2007.07.29 17:32:00 - [609]
 

I will not be training missiles.. I'll just not use a sac or malediction or damnation or vengeance.. I use lasers because I like them and do not have to carry around ammo.. I will stick to that.. but I still dislike this change as it limits the amount of ships I have the choice to fly really

Romulus Maximus
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.07.29 17:38:00 - [610]
 

Tbh...i dont care what happens to these ships, apart from the Damnation.
The rest has sucked and been inferior for ages. Not that i think these changes will change that.

I wont be training for missiles. I have very low sp in them, as i rarely use them. And thats not because i dotn want to adapt..id just rather train for Gallente for example, than waste my time on missiles for Amarr ships :o

Its a bit late in the day for these kind of radical changes imo, but i hope it improves the ships for those that have or want to have the relevent missile skills. Lord knows there way under used, somthing needs to be done. I however dotn think this is it.

They may be better than they are now. My only concern is the Damnation, a ship which takes months to fly anyway, is now going to need a lot of time to get missile skills up for it.

This isnt a whine either, just my opinion. I rarely fly any of them, so im not too fussed. Just the Damnation is fine as it is imo.



Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2007.07.29 17:40:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 17:42:48
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Kerfira
So you're claiming you're not using manipulation????

You forgot to include this part of my post (which came just after the part you quoted):...

Why are you claiming those numbers are correct when they are quite obviously aren't?

Ok, I'd like for you to show me how 4 ships out of 36 is not 11%
(Well, it is 11.11111....%, but apart from that they're correct)

Your abilities for math are reaching a new low Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Aramendel
Quote:
Given the way balancing goes, the weapon system that has 4 out of 36 of the T2 combat boat doesn't have a good chance of having usable ships.
Hybrid/missile has 23 out of the 36 available ships, thus a much better chance....

There is no "chance" per weapon system for "good" and "bad" ships. You are creating fantasy scenarios now.

Ehhh, no.....
When CCP balances ships, it IS pretty much chance based whether they'll be good or not. 4 out of 36 doesn't leave good odds... 23 out of 36 is MUCH better...
Originally by: Aramendel
Quote:
And yes, I'm ignoring T1 ships completely since they have no relevance in balancing the T2 ships between weapon systems.....

Balance does not happen in only one area. Especially since you are not arguing about the performance balance between ships but of the distribution balance between missiles and turrets.

Yes, I'm arguing that having only 11% of the T2 combat ships using lasers is im-balanced, since the other 3 weapon types will then have 89% of those ships...

Why is it that T2 combat ships are not allowed to be balanced IN THEIR OWN AREA????
Are laser users to be confined to T1 ships (and a very few T2), whereas the 'grown-ups' (missile/hybrid users) are allowed to use the majority of the T2 ones????

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.07.29 18:32:00 - [612]
 

While I'm not looking forward to training up my lax missile skills as a pure Amarr/laser player, I'm actually very excited about these changes. The whole idea of the Khanid ships was that they would be amarr/caldari hybrids, armor tanking missle boats, and now they finally will be.

-Changing the laser bonuses to cap recharge bonuses, along with not having to use cap for lasers since we'll be shooting missles, means these things will tank quite nicely.

-Not having to waste a few module slots just to keep your cap recharge up for laser usage is also going to be interesting

-Being able to shoot something other that EM/Therm in an Amarr boat will also do wonders for us.

These changes have 'been coming' longer than many of you have been playing, so it's nice to see them actually happening.

Now if we could get those regular Amarr ship fixes sometime in the next 5 years I'll just be on cloud 9 ;)


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:01:00 - [613]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 19:02:37
Originally by: Kerfira
..Ok, I'd like for you to show me how 4 ships out of 36 is not 11%
(Well, it is 11.11111....%, but apart from that they're correct)


Reading comprehension is not your strength, is it? Let me repeat myself:

They are incorrect because they, as said, ignore the considerable numbers of turret/missile and turret/drone hybrids of gallente ships.

See the word "laser" there? Your hybrid numbers are wrong, always were yet you keep repeating them mantralike.


Quote:
Ehhh, no.....
When CCP balances ships, it IS pretty much chance based whether they'll be good or not. 4 out of 36 doesn't leave good odds... 23 out of 36 is MUCH better...


LaughingLaughingLaughing

As said, 2 out of your 36 ships are drone ships. Both are quite good. Guess they were just "lucky"?


Quote:
Yes, I'm arguing that having only 11% of the T2 combat ships using lasers is im-balanced, since the other 3 weapon types will then have 89% of those ships...

Why is it that T2 combat ships are not allowed to be balanced IN THEIR OWN AREA????


Because it is an artifical restriction? The game consists of all ships, t1 and t2.

Quote:
Are laser users to be confined to T1 ships (and a very few T2), whereas the 'grown-ups' (missile/hybrid users) are allowed to use the majority of the T2 ones????


So you came to the brilliant conclusion that someone who specced into two weapontypes can use more ships than someone who specced into one weapontype? No **** sherlock, you truly are an intellectual titan amongst men...

Wintermoon
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:10:00 - [614]
 

Edited by: Wintermoon on 29/07/2007 19:10:04
I am only reading this thread for the exchange between Aramendel and Kerfira.

It is like a Jerry Springer episode, but without the midgets slapping each other. Shocked



(love the changes by the way) YARRRR!!

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:26:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: Wintermoon
...but without the midgets slapping each other...


What do you think we've been doing since a page? YARRRR!!

throbbinnoggin
Gallente
Eminent Domain
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:32:00 - [616]
 

Edited by: throbbinnoggin on 29/07/2007 19:37:24
Originally by: Wintermoon
Edited by: Wintermoon on 29/07/2007 19:10:04
I am only reading this thread for the exchange between Aramendel and Kerfira.

It is like a Jerry Springer episode, including midgets slapping each other. Shocked



(love the changes by the way) YARRRR!!

Corrected Wink

Edit: I agree with these changes. They might actually give khanid ships a *gasp* identity beyond just that of bastardized junk.


Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:32:00 - [617]
 

Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds.

Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr
Inadeptus Mechanicus
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:37:00 - [618]
 

Originally by: Parallax Error
Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds.


agree. or maybe give the ships a flight flight time bonus. i have been playing around a bit with HAMs and i like them...but they need some change. like maybe a 10km range as base?

Siobhan Ni
Gallente
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:54:00 - [619]
 

Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random.

How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari.

Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:00:00 - [620]
 

Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
Originally by: Parallax Error
Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds.


agree. or maybe give the ships a flight flight time bonus. i have been playing around a bit with HAMs and i like them...but they need some change. like maybe a 10km range as base?


I agree completely. It'd be nice to see them get an extra few seconds of flight time. Until we get that change, I'll be planning to use the long-range tech2 variants on my sacrilege. I've seen them used to create success on ganky drakes, no reason why it shouldn't work on the sac.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:03:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: Siobhan Ni
Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random.

How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari.


They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it.

And its not like your laser skills, would have beeen put to use on the previously absolutly ****ty Khanid ships that was previous.

FFS, they changed some previously useless ships into usefull ships. The freaking sacriledge did less laser DPS than the MALLER. The f'ing Maller, which does less DPS than all combat cruisers in the game except the stabber!

Yea, putting those laser skills to real good use.

So just shut the hell up about the laser issue, this is about changing ****ty missile/laser split weapon ships into decent missile ships.

Siobhan Ni
Gallente
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:05:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Siobhan Ni
Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random.

How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari.


They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it.

And its not like your laser skills, would have beeen put to use on the previously absolutly ****ty Khanid ships that was previous.

FFS, they changed some previously useless ships into usefull ships. The freaking sacriledge did less laser DPS than the MALLER. The f'ing Maller, which does less DPS than all combat cruisers in the game except the stabber!

Yea, putting those laser skills to real good use.

So just shut the hell up about the laser issue, this is about changing ****ty missile/laser split weapon ships into decent missile ships.



No how about just fixing lasers? "Laser suck so use missiles" is hardly a fix for the under lying problem.

Rossarian
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:10:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Siobhan Ni
Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random.

How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari.


So what would be your ilks suggestion for Khanid? Make them exact copies of their Amarr counterparts? Make them impossible to use shieldtanking laserboats? Keep them in their current crappy selves with their only redeeming factor being low price?

Really if all you care about is using lasers to good effect, this changes absolutely NOTHING for you as you were not using these ships before anyway. But at least they will now be useful for people who like variety.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:13:00 - [624]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 29/07/2007 20:17:28
You know, so many of you guys here suck. Think for a minute about how the priorities for weaponry were stacked before:

Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones
Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare
Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles
Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles.

And now:

Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones
Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare
(New) Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Missiles, Electronic Warfare
Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles

Does this not make perfect sense? Is this not a rather tasty "balance"?

Again, stop and think. A Caldari pilot wishing to not restrict his ship choices must train Railguns and Missiles. A Minmatar pilot must train Projectiles and Missiles. A Gallente pilot must train Railguns and Drones, whereas Amarr pilots trained... Lasers. Rolling Eyes

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:14:00 - [625]
 

Originally by: Siobhan Ni
No how about just fixing lasers? "Laser suck so use missiles" is hardly a fix for the under lying problem.


If you would have pulled your whiney head out of the dark place it seems to be stuck in, you just MIGHT have realized that this change has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the laser problem. It is a completely separate fix dating back from before lasers even developed their current issues.

This is NOT the promised Amarr oomph.

Mortuus
Minmatar
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:15:00 - [626]
 

Yes, lasers don't work...keep the prices down.


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:24:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Cedric Diggory
Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 29/07/2007 20:17:28
You know, so many of you guys here suck. Think for a minute about how the priorities for weaponry were stacked before:

Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones
Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare
Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles
Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles.

And now:

Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones
Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare
(New) Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Missiles, Electronic Warfare
Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles

Does this not make perfect sense? Is this not a rather tasty "balance"?

Again, stop and think. A Caldari pilot wishing to not restrict his ship choices must train Railguns and Missiles. A Minmatar pilot must train Projectiles and Missiles. A Gallente pilot must train Railguns and Drones, whereas Amarr pilots trained... Lasers. Rolling Eyes


Uhh, no. An amarr pilot not wishing to suck complete balls trained lasers and drones. Because without drones, amarr ships suck balls.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:27:00 - [628]
 

Quote:
Uhh, no. An amarr pilot not wishing to suck complete balls trained lasers and drones. Because without drones, amarr ships suck balls.


You mean like the Minmatar and Caldari pilots also trained drones so they too did not suck balls?

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:30:00 - [629]
 

Still one valid "whine" or complaint is regarding the interdictor.

With every other ship, there's an option to go with the non-khanid ship and not be bothered with missiles(albeit i don't like the change that much, i can see how it might be a good thing if you trained missiles).

Like i said earlier, now i NEED to train the 15-20 days worth(i think) missiles skills before i can fit it to any battle ready state.

Though, i'm also miffed that now, when this change comes, and IF i don't train missiles, by interceptor and assault ship skills grant me two t2 frigates with one med slot Crying or Very sad

BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay).

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:31:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Sheriff Jones

BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay).


arent lvl1 missile op + lvl1 rockets like 10-12 minutes? ;p


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