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blankseplocked The Mystery of ME, PE and Perfect ME
 
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:00:00 - [31]
 

Nice post.

Still makes me laugh that there are carebears who don't get this stuff. WTB ME50 thorax bpo...LOL.

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:22:00 - [32]
 

STICKY Exclamation

Thank you so much, dude. Concise and to the point that a non-manufacturing player can understand.

B1FF
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:17:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Night Swordstrike


I still say too much ME isn't a good idea if you can put it into production.



I never disagreed with this point. In fact I agree with this point. I don't understand why you feel the need to make it again. I was mearly pointing out that you were using a flawed accounting model for your example.

Linada
LiveTech
Posted - 2006.06.17 13:17:00 - [34]
 

Nice guide, it illustrates it quite nicely. I vote sticky too :)


Hikari Destiny
Posted - 2006.06.17 18:48:00 - [35]
 

It's strange, I've put the formulas in an excel sheet and tried to find good ME for my BPO, and I found the Perfect ME was the amount of the material you wish to save divided by 10, not 5.

Are you sure of this * 0.1/0.5 (= /5)?

I don't have the skill at 5 so I can't realy test right now.

Anyway, thanks for all of this post!

Utoxin
Matari Munitions
Posted - 2006.06.18 05:02:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Hikari Destiny
It's strange, I've put the formulas in an excel sheet and tried to find good ME for my BPO, and I found the Perfect ME was the amount of the material you wish to save divided by 10, not 5.

Are you sure of this * 0.1/0.5 (= /5)?

I don't have the skill at 5 so I can't realy test right now.

Anyway, thanks for all of this post!


Here's a better explanation for you.

Let's use 100 as the mineral requirement for our test.

100 * 0.1 = 10

That's simple.

Now, let's look at 0.5.

0.5 = 1/2

How do you divide by a fraction? Multiply by the inverse of the fraction. So...

100 * 0.1 * 2 = x

10 * 2 = x

20 = x

20 = 100 / 5

Sarmea Moon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.06.18 13:31:00 - [37]
 

However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc.
For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players.

Kjellerup
Minmatar
The Qing Dynasty
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2006.06.18 15:24:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Kjellerup on 15/10/2006 11:50:04
Originally by: Sarmea Moon
However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc.
For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players.


Ehm ...

That would be the same. ME will not remove your incompetence waste due to low Production Efficiency skill. So the spreadsheet actually shows ME waste for all Production Efficiency levels. But let's just make an example anyway, and let's take something big like the Megathron, just to have some obscene mineral requirements.

I'm not gonna list all the minerals, and do all the calcultions again, as I've listed those formulas in the above posts, but I hope you'll beleive me when I list the following numbers for you:

Megathron ME10, Production Efficiency 0 - Build cost approx: 108,128,990.74 ISK
Megathron ME50, Production Efficiency 0 - Build cost approx: 107,364,963.24 ISK

ISK saved: 764,027.5
Percentage saved: 0.7%

Megathron ME10, Production Efficiency 5 - Build cost approx: 86,503,192.60 ISK
Megathron ME50, Production Efficiency 5 - Build cost approx: 85,891,970.59 ISK

ISK saved: 611,222.01
Percentage saved: 0.7%

If you look in the spreadsheet on ME, you'll see that the difference between ME 10 and ME 50 is indeed 0,7%.

Hopefully this also proves why you want to train that Production Efficiency skill, at least a few levels!

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2006.06.18 19:03:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Matthew on 18/06/2006 19:06:56
While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.

The first one is the cross-subsidisation effect. This is where the benefits of one ME level are used to subsidise the researching of another ME level. This happens implicitly every time you compare 2 ME levels that are not adjacent to each other. For example, using the OP's numbers for the kestrel, we can see that moving from ME0 to ME10 saves you 18225 isk per kestrel. However, far more of that saving is going to be due to going from ME0 to ME1 than from going from ME9 to ME10. By looking at 0-10 as a block, you are implicity saying that this extra saving from the lower ME levels is being used to subsidise research at the higher ME levels. If this is not what you want to do, then you have to only ever compare adjacent ME levels. And if cross-subisdisation is something that you want to do, you have to apply it consistently - bands such as ME0,1,2,3,10,50 are not consistent and will give distorted results. If you want to do cross-subsidisation, you should always compare from ME0 to your desired ME level, even if your BP has already been researched - otherwise you'd get the incorrect answer that a partially-researched BP is less researchable than a new one.

The second point is that a mathematically rigorous optimal ME level is possible to work out for a given situation. What you need to specify the situation are mineral values, the mineral requirements at each ME level for your BP, the costs of research (both lab rental costs and any oppourtunity costs incurred by locking the BP into the lab) and the number of runs at which you want to break even.

There are then two main optimality conditions you could choose from, the difference between them being cross-subsidisation. The short-term optimal does not use cross-subsidisation, and looks for the highest ME level at which the savings from researching that ME level are more than the cost of researching that ME level. Mathematically, you are looking for the highest ME that satisfies:

Breakeven_runs*(Saving(ME) - Saving(ME-1)) > Cost_Per_ME_Run

Where Breakeven_runs is the number of runs at which your research investment breaks even, Saving(ME) is the saving gained by that ME over ME0, and Cost_per_ME_Run is the lab rent + oppourtunity costs of performing 1 ME level of research.

This will give you better results in the short term, however someone using a cross-subsidisation optimal will overtake you in the long term.

The crude version of the cross-subsidisation optimal (which I do not advise actually using), rearranges the short term equation to become:

Breakeven_Runs*Saving(ME) > ME*Cost_Per_ME_Run

This uses the better-than-breakeven savings realised at low ME levels to subsidise later ME levels which would not break even on their own. While this puts you in a worse short term position, in the long term you will realise more overall savings.

The downside of this crude version is that it does not place any limit on how long it would take you to overtake the short-term optimal. For large BPs, especially battleships, the savings at early ME levels are very large compared to lab costs, which can result in that formula recommending ME500+, requiring thousands of runs before you break even compared to the short-term optimal. This is why I don't suggest using it.

What you want is a more cunning method of applying it - this is achieved by considering the short-term optimal savings as a cost in the long-term formula. Your breakeven_runs then specifies the number of runs at which you break even compared to the short term optimal, rather than comapred to the zero baseline. The formula then becomes:

Breakeven_runs*saving(Long_ME) > Long_ME*Cost_per_ME_Run + Breakeven_runs*saving(Short_ME)

With Short_ME calculated using the short-term formula. Note that for cheaper goods, Long_ME and Short_ME may be the same due to too little cross-subsidisation value.

Kjellerup
Minmatar
The Qing Dynasty
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2006.06.19 09:25:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Matthew
While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.


Nice postExclamation
You've got some interesting points and nice formulas to back it up. My post was directed at those people who goes "omgwtf ME200, I think i'll pay an extra 500 million for this BPO" or people just starting research and production that want to know the benefits of ME and PE. Clearly you are not one of those Smile

I'm not trying to make people do ME10 instead of ME50, those numbers are just picked for reference to make the post consistent.


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2006.06.19 11:56:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kjellerup
Originally by: Matthew
While this is a great thread, there are a couple more things to be pointed out.


Nice postExclamation
You've got some interesting points and nice formulas to back it up. My post was directed at those people who goes "omgwtf ME200, I think i'll pay an extra 500 million for this BPO" or people just starting research and production that want to know the benefits of ME and PE. Clearly you are not one of those Smile


Yeah, my post is more for those with too much time on their hands to play with the maths behind it, and in persuading excel to do those calcuations. Your post is great at getting the fundamentals of the system across, just thought I'd supplement it with a suggestions on where to go when you want to use more than the standard rules of thumb.

Of course, even with those equations, there's still a fair bit of skill involved in reading the market and planning ahead to get realistic breakeven values and long-term mineral prices.

Sarmea Moon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.06.19 13:55:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Kjellerup
Originally by: Sarmea Moon
However, what are the numbers if you DON'T have PE5? I think this is why people want to buy those me 50 BPCs. I personally don't research over 20 myself for anything, but I have PE5, Industry 5 etc.
For those who are using loot melted minerals to make a BS, what might be a good ME for them to use? We are talking about people who maybe have the mining 2 skill they started the game with:) I think posting the number, then cross-posting them into the newbie forum would be good. I don't think the mods would get too upset, as it affects new players, or new-to-manufacturing players.


Ehm ...

That would be the same. ME will not remove your incompetence waste due to low Industri skill. So the spreadsheet actually shows ME waste for all Industry levels. But let's just make an example anyway, and let's take something big like the Megathron, just to have some obscene mineral requirements.

I'm not gonna list all the minerals, and do all the calcultions again, as I've listed those formulas in the above posts, but I hope you'll beleive me when I list the following numbers for you:

Megathron ME10, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 108,128,990.74 ISK
Megathron ME50, Industri 0 - Build cost approx: 107,364,963.24 ISK

ISK saved: 764,027.5
Percentage saved: 0.7%

Megathron ME10, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 86,503,192.60 ISK
Megathron ME50, Industri 5 - Build cost approx: 85,891,970.59 ISK

ISK saved: 611,222.01
Percentage saved: 0.7%

If you look in the spreadsheet on ME, you'll see that the difference between ME 10 and ME 50 is indeed 0,7%.

Hopefully this also proves why you want to train that Industry skill, at least a few levels!


I understood this, I was just too lazy to do the math. A corpmate bought some BS BPCs that were me50 over some 500k cheaper me10's. Looks like he made the right choice. If they had cost MORE than 500k more, he'd have lost out:)

Satomila Kunis
Posted - 2006.06.23 19:27:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Satomila Kunis on 23/06/2006 19:27:24
edit: nvm, answered my question

D'Nar
Caldari
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.06.25 23:17:00 - [44]
 

Lovely post, quite deserving of some glue.

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2006.07.24 22:56:00 - [45]
 

Why is this not stickied? I just went through 8 pages to find this

Smada
ACME HARDWARE
Posted - 2006.07.25 21:51:00 - [46]
 

Ooooooieee Mr & Mrs Mod o/

Please apply some adhesive to this thread.

Clearest, easiest to read explanation of ME/PE research I've ever seen. Very Happy

Might prevent some advanced muppetry in the research field and free up a few slots. Shocked

Whilst also saving people from those "Doh!" moments when they realise they paid over the top for that shiny new ME50 BPC they just bought off escrow, when they could have had an ME 20 one for half the price. Wink

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:37:00 - [47]
 

It's like the mods dont want people to know how to work ME research efficiently

Ozmodan
Minmatar
Massively Mob
Posted - 2006.08.04 05:12:00 - [48]
 

Been looking all over for this information, even left a post on the board earlier asking what PE and ME were because the player guide just did not explain it.

If anything needs a sticky this post does.

Choralone
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2006.08.06 09:09:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Kjellerup
First let me point out that there's a little confusion as to incompetence waste. According to the skill [url="http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/SkillsAccessories/Skills/Industry/3388.asp"

Production Efficiency[/url] it reduces waste by 4% per skill level, but according to the formula in the Player Guide it reduces waste by 5% per skill level. In the following I will assume it's 25% minus 5% per skill level, but it doesn't really matter if it's so or 20% - 4% per skill level, as you definitely want this skill at lvl 5 when going into production.

On a note some people will probably come here saying it's 25% - 4% per lvl, meaning you will always have a 5% incompetence waste, even at PE lvl 5. This is not true, as it's been tested and the numbers ingame simply gives PE5 a 0% incompetence waste.

Your base incompetence waste is 25%. Therefore you can calculate a formula for incompentence waste as: 1.25 - 0.05 * PE lvl.




Actually, the 25% - 4% as documented is correct. The 4% reduction is based on the amount with maximum waste, not the perfect amount.

It goes like this:

1.25 - PE(.04)(1.25)

If PE is 5:

1.25 - 5(.04)(1.25)=
1.25 - .20(1.25) =
1.25 - .25 = 1.00

Kjellerup
Minmatar
The Qing Dynasty
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.06 10:27:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Kjellerup on 06/08/2006 10:30:51
Edited by: Kjellerup on 06/08/2006 10:27:11
Originally by: Choralone
Actually, the 25% - 4% as documented is correct. The 4% reduction is based on the amount with maximum waste, not the perfect amount.

It goes like this:

1.25 - PE(.04)(1.25)

If PE is 5:

1.25 - 5(.04)(1.25)=
1.25 - .20(1.25) =
1.25 - .25 = 1.00


Well, that makes perfect sense. It gives the same results as my post, namely a 5% effective reduction, your math makes the documentation correct though. Thanks for clearing that up. Smile

Sprak
Donner Party
B4D W01F
Posted - 2006.08.09 01:41:00 - [51]
 

Nice post. Very useful, and could use some glue

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.09 11:03:00 - [52]
 

great post Very Happy

Spamson
Maza Nostra
oooh Shiny
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:23:00 - [53]
 

Nice post Kj, deserves some glue and staples

Viddles
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.08.12 23:30:00 - [54]
 

Manufacturing time question... are the savings that come from Industry Skill Level and BPO Productivity Level multiplied by each other, or added to each other? Example case:

Let's say you have Industry Skill Level 4, that enables you to manufacture items in 84% of the time someone who hadn't trained it at all would take.

Let's say you have a BPO that has been researched to a Productivity Level of 4 - which as far as I can tell allows a run to be manufactured in 84% of the time of the equivalent BPO whose Productivity Level is zero.

Does the person with Industry 4 manufacture this item in 70.56% of the time the "untrained noob" takes? (multiplied) or... in 68% of the time the untrained noob takes? (added together)

Erast Akunin
Akunin Shipyards
Posted - 2006.08.13 05:31:00 - [55]
 

Let's keep this active, mod's will eventually stickeh this great thread. Very Happy

Xenos Barata
Caldari
The After LIfe
SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE
Posted - 2006.08.13 15:35:00 - [56]
 

Just getting into research and manufacturing. This is just the thing for me.

It sure helped clear up a lot that I couldn't find any where else!!

Many Thanks!!Very Happy

Duradam
Black List
Free Trade Zone.
Posted - 2006.08.13 20:57:00 - [57]
 

vote for sticky +1

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2006.08.13 22:59:00 - [58]
 

All those voting for a sticky, this thread won't be stickied on it's own. It might, however, be included in the Useful Links sticky, if the suggestions are posted there as they are intended to be.

Chondu Hataki
Posted - 2006.08.14 04:35:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Chondu Hataki on 14/08/2006 04:37:08
Great post, really helped me understand ME. Just some numbers in my game are bothering me.

I'll use a tristan BPO for this. At 0 ME, so the waste factor is 0.1

--------------- PERFECT / YOU(me)
PE0 Tritanium 23071 / 28839
PE1 Tritanium 23071 / 27686

I can't see where the 0.1 waste factor is calculated

At PE 0 my cost in tritanium was 28839, which was of course 1.25 times the perfect cost.
At PE 1 my cost is 27686 which is 1.20 times the perfect cost.

Now if i were to calculate in the BPO 0.1 waste the numbers would/should be higher.. what gets me is, in OURS(system) my Tritanium cost is less when i get a quote from a factory.

At PE 1, Tritanium cost is 27265, which is 98.5% of the said cost in the BPO. So where is this final number coming from? Does the station have greater than 100% manufacturing effiency? If so is it so great it pretty much cancels out the 10% wastage factor in my unresearched BPO? I think i am missing something so if someone could fill me in i'd be quite content :)

Thanks

GC13
Caldari
Species 5618
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2006.08.14 07:06:00 - [60]
 

Quote:
If you have ever used Show Info on a blueprint and your Production Efficiency skill was under five, you may have noticed that the mineral cost entered for "You" is slightly higher than what the factory quote says you need. This is because for purposes of generating the mineral requirement in the blueprint's Bill of Materials, it multiplies the waste caused by having a Production Efficiency skill below five in with the waste caused by a blueprint's Material Level being below perfect. For the factory, however, the wastes are calculated independently of one another, and then added. The proper formula for mineral cost is as follows:

Mineral cost = Base cost + (Base cost * (0.25 - (0.05 * Production Efficiency))) + (Base cost * Mineral wasteage factor)

(Note that "base cost" refers to the pre-waste cost listed in the Item Database at www.eve-online.com.)

The factories round down any decimal value in "Mineral Cost" that is less than 0.5 to zero. This is done for each run individually, so ten runs with a Zydrine waste of 0.1 per run will waste zero Zydrine, not one unit. Likewise, any decimal value 0.5 and above is rounded up to one. This means 6.5 wasted units of Mexallon become 7, and 9.374 wasted units of Isogen are turned into just 9.
That's what my guide has to say about this issue. I hope it answers all of your questions.


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