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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:43:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 13:41:25
Ideas so far:
Originally by: sgb
increase sensor strength by a fixed amount, or a percentage

Originally by: sgb
prevent low skill jammers from jamming any ship with a sensor strength significantly greater than that of the jammer

Originally by: Shardrael
drop jamming strength on the ecm modules, however compensate for this by giving dedicated ecm ships bonuses, rather than nerfing it across the board into uselessness

Originally by: BlackPrince
Use projected eccm. One dedicated bb using eccm can prevent jamming (ed - still not convinced this is the ultimate solution, but bears looking into.)

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Stacking penalty to ECM (same as sensor damps and target painters). Thus, no matter how many ships you have jamming another, you're not fully 100% sure to jam it. Also, this means that higher-powered jammers would have more of a benefit.

Originally by: Dark Shikari

Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies (ed - and friendlies?), NOT locking them. Jammers have 10 second cycle time. No relock reqired.

Originally by: TomB
ECCM
Make the ECCM a passive module just like the "Sensor Backup Array" but adding a new activation funcionality to it.

The module would overwrite any type of modification to the sensors of your ship for a short duration, giving it pretty neat range and resolution but only allowing you to attain a single target. The module would then have a long reactivation delay but the passive boost to your sensor strength would continue working. This would allow this module to counter both RSD and ECM for a short duration.

ECCM Activation:
Max Locked Targets: 1
Max Target Range: 100km
Scan Resolution: 500
Duration: 15seconds
Reactivation Delay: 30minutes

EW Reactivation Delay
Idea posted by a player (Sarmaul, then stolen by Shibby DoWa) to add a cooldown to EW based modules, worth looking at. It gives ships with multiple ECM systems an advantage over ships with only 1-2 ECM's (frigates).

ECM Target Jammer Duration: 30seconds
Reactivation Delay: 10secs


Originally by: Kalaan Oratay
Give all ECMs a 100 second cooldown accross the board. ECM ships gain the additional attribute:
15% bonus reduction to ECM cooldown per level.


Originally by: Ishana
ECM deactivates random modules instead of disrupting targeting (ed - editing ftw)

Originally by: Gronsak
Gronsak hate ecm. Gronsak nerf! Ug.

Originally by: Gronsak
introduce ECCM skills, +5% resistance to being damped. +5% resistance to being tracking desrupted. and +20% to ship sensors!

Originally by: Clavius XIV
Make the skill MODULE based. If you have this skill and have ECCM module fitted you get benefit, if not you don't get any benefit. Otherwise this becomes a "must have skill" for everyone.

Originally by: Nyxus
It's hardly worth fitting TDs on a TD bonus ship over ECM. Make TD's affect missile explosion radius. That way it works on all ships.

Originally by: Maya Rakell
Partial Jam: tweak the stats and have less of a difference between Frigate and BS sensor strenghts. Then adjust jammers so they will on *average* jam a couple of targeting channels on a BS. If you have 8 targets, and get jammed for 2 then you have a 25% chance of losing and being unable to regain for the EW cycle, and you max locks is now 6

Originally by: Nafri
Have ecm stack. This way those ships that are specialised will be used, and those ships that are not will not

Originally by: Lema
Give the jammer a cap penalty based on the sensor strength on the ship you are trying to jam. Ew specialist ships are unaffected

Originally by: Heikki

a) Have ECM modules give non-cumulative combat disadvantages; whether you have 1 or 7 ECM, you get like 50% reduction in all damage you do.
b) Reduce the strength of lone/few ECM modules. Like, if your ship has less than 4-5 modules, they would be considerable weaker than now.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 - [2]
 

yesterday I managed to jam a geddon with a t1 minmatar jammer and no skills to make it more effective

TheKiller8
Caldari
S.A.S
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 - [3]
 

Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?

wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
EW is too powerful. Discuss.

sgb

/signed

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?


you > me :(

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:55:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
EW is too powerful. Discuss.

sgb


Best ideas Ive heard are:

Sensor Backup modules changing your maxed locked targets to 1 regardless of EW

and

EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)

They'd work best.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)

They'd work best.


permajam actually Wink

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:57:00 - [8]
 

signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!

if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!

also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.05.04 11:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Testy Mctest
EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)

They'd work best.


permajam actually Wink


Err....yeh, that. I was going along the lines of perma-lockdown, but I was on the phone typing at the time :P

Thor Belfry
Caldari
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:02:00 - [10]
 

I don't think ECM is overpowered as such though when you can fit it on anything and it being useful on anything it's a problem so I'd say the ships are overpowered not ECM

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:02:00 - [11]
 

You have 6mio in gunnery, I have 6mio in electronics Razz



no honestly, all this talking about "omg, I jammed a geddon with a matari jammer" is rubbish.
Its a luck based system, so you can be lucky... or not.

For every story you may tell, I can tell you about how my 13 strength jammers missed to jamm a megathron for 3 cycles... although I was using 3 of them on him...

And before you want to have the old system back, back then I permajammed 4-5 BS easily Wink

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:05:00 - [12]
 

its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari

put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:06:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari

put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!


thats a lie

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:09:00 - [14]
 

ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.

Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks. Razz

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Forsch
ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.

Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks. Razz


Amarrs is just second worst Sensor strenght Razz

And no honestly, if you use ECM a lot, you will really notice its problems, and there are a lot

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Forsch
ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.

Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks. Razz


Amarrs is just second worst Sensor strenght Razz

And no honestly, if you use ECM a lot, you will really notice its problems, and there are a lot


pray tell

for when i use ECM on my targets im able to take on 3vs1 pretty easy. and i dont even fly ECM ships!

and you think its ok for ONE mid slot to have 75% chance in jamming a raven and MORE chance jamming other ships? and thats assumeing the fight lasts lock time + 21seconds. its closer to 85% if the fight lasts lock time and 41 seconds

ONE MID SLOT gives u 85% chance of shutting down the target for at lest one 20sec cycle = dead ship

Shardrael
Caldari
The Fimbriani
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:42:00 - [17]
 

personally if it has to be nerfed I would rather see maybe the sensor jamming strength on the ecm modules dropped and the ecm cruisers and other class of ships given more bonuses to compensate, would much rather have one type of ship able to use ecm well then nerf it across the board into uselessness

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!

if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!

also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps


75% ? how did you come to that number ? the second cycle is independent, so you have again 41% chance to jam. within 21 seconds you HAVE to ativate it twice as it has a 20second cycle time.

Nafri: I gave up on this kind of discussions. ppl want to either completely remove ecm or making it function in such a way that it is not worth over tracking disruptors/sensor damps. I think you'll save much nerve doing the same :-))

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:43:00 - [19]
 

Well I just thought i'd leave this thread for a few minutes, and 15 replies, 14 of which agree that EW is overpowered.

Personally I used to love fitting that one multispec on my ship, i even sacrificed my beloved mwd to fit multi, web and scram on my rupture, i got so many cruiser kills from that Smile

However, these days it seems that everybody and his uncle is doing this. And it is actually ruining pvp. Either your mates bring a load of ew, jam the hell out of everything, and you win, or the other side does.

So, what I am thinking, and testy's points above are also interesting, is just a general nerf of ECM to bring it in line with other EW mods. Any ideas, feel free to post here and maybe Tux will have a look when he's finished balancing autos, arties and blasters (in that order please Tux Wink)

Personally, I feel that either a reduction in jamming strength of say 25% across the board, an increase in sensor strength of ships across the board (similar to the hp increase a while back), or even a boost to the effectiveness of ECCM.

From what I've seen of ECM, it often either ends up never jamming something it should do or getting far too many jams on something that should be basically invulnerable to ECM (domi with 34 sensor strength vs 1 multi, for example).

Anyway, I don't want to make ECM useless, since i know many of you have specialised in this useful form of warfare. I'm just continually trying to make PvP more fun for everybody.

If we get a bunch of interesting ideas i may even update the first post to reflect them, so as to let all the lazy people read them without having to read an entire thread. If i'm that bored. I have essays, so it's highly likely atm.

sgb

jukriamrr
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:46:00 - [20]
 

It is obvious that sir sgb is a fan of the "brutor approach": "simply cram as much firepower onto a ship as possible, forge about ewar" Razz

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 12:53:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Forsch on 04/05/2006 12:54:41

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
ppl want to either completely remove ecm or making it function in such a way that it is not worth over tracking disruptors/sensor damps.

Aha! Why SHOULD it be worth more than TDs/SDs?? If anything, it should be of equal use.
Right now, it's much much better. It cannot stay that way.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:00:00 - [22]
 

EW is fine.

Except for the bugged drones. But that's a bug, not a design flaw.

BlackPrince
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:02:00 - [23]
 

Or yall could try using projected eccm in cooperation with the active and passive modules to make yourselves (if done properly) almost immune to being jammed, or in lesser doses make it very difficult to be jammed. God forbid someone should show some creative thought about overcoming a problem instead of just screaming "NERF!".

EWAR is very easy to overcome on a fleet and smaller task force level if you think about it.


smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: BlackPrince
Or yall could try using projected eccm in cooperation with the active and passive modules to make yourselves (if done properly) almost immune to being jammed, or in lesser doses make it very difficult to be jammed. God forbid someone should show some creative thought about overcoming a problem instead of just screaming "NERF!".

EWAR is very easy to overcome on a fleet and smaller task force level if you think about it.




Originally by: Maya Rkell
EW is fine.

Except for the bugged drones. But that's a bug, not a design flaw.


Have I screamed nerf? No. Do I, and many others, think ECM is overpowered, both in very small fleets and in larger battles? Yes.

This is a thread I have started for intelligent debate on this topic (I'm bored of sarcastic one-liners), please treat it as such and state your side of the argument.

Maya - at the moment ECM seems to be able to lock down ships far too easily, this does not seem to be 'fine' to me. If you feel that this is fine, then please state your argument as to why.

sgb

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:08:00 - [25]
 

Here's an idea I had.

1. Stacking penalty to ECM (same as sensor damps and target painters). Thus, no matter how many ships you have jamming another, you're not fully 100% sure to jam it. Also, this means that higher-powered jammers would have more of a benefit.

2. Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies, NOT locking them.

3. Jammers have 10 second cycle time.

This means that you wouldn't have to wait 10 seconds to relock an enemy every time the jammer turns off and then fire--you could just fire the instant the jam stops.

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Gronsak
signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!

if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!

also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps


75% ? how did you come to that number ? the second cycle is independent, so you have again 41% chance to jam. within 21 seconds you HAVE to ativate it twice as it has a 20second cycle time.




if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.

basicly the same math applies to jamming. 41% chance of jamming in first cycle. second cycle is 65% [ie that you jam them once during those two ccyles]
third is 81.34% of jamming them once within 3 cycles or 41seconds!!!!!

the numbers on this post are correct, the others where a "little off" since i did those without a calculator

basicly one mid slot with racial jammer gives you 81.3% chance of jamming the target once within 41seconds and that basicly gives the fight to you!

and those numbers are on a raven with ECM on a non ECM ship, the numbers are much higher useing ideal conditions ie jamming a gedden in a scorp!

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:10:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

2. Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies, NOT locking them.



I like that, too. Makes them a bit less powerful but still lets them do what they do. Makes frigs with Jammers less ridiculous when they get lucky jamming a battleship. Avoids battleship pilot having to go make a cup of tea while he relocks.

Xaeon
Invicta.
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:14:00 - [28]
 

I think that EW strengths should be reduced overall, while EW boats should have bonuses enough to bring EW back to it's current state. It means that those ships designed for using EW will be more effective than they currently are (by comparison) and you won't have EW being carried as much on non-ew boats.

In that sense it should be v.similar to turrets on ships - on the right ship a MPL can be bloody powerful, stick it on the wrong ship and it's no longer so useful.

Jacinto Naysmith
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:30:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Jacinto Naysmith on 04/05/2006 13:31:47
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Gronsak
its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari

put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!


thats a lie


I use EW a lot but I only have mediocre skills, and Nafri is right. Theres no way I'd count on one racial jammer jamming a target unless they were a frigate. Against a battleship, try 2 or 3.

EW shoujld be effective equiped on any ship, not just specialized EW boats. When the only thing you can put in your midslots are "shield tanks or warp scramblers" its a hell of a lot more boring.

Kalaan Oratay
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:32:00 - [30]
 

Give all ECMs a 100 second cooldown accross the board.

ECM ships gain the additional attribute:
Electronic Warfare Skill Bonus: 15% bonus reduction to ECM cooldown per level.


My shortsightedness doesnt see any problems with this, does anyone else?



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