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blankseplocked Quality product, or EVE? And idea for CCP.
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HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2003.09.19 10:51:00 - [1]

Quality product, or EVE?

For me, its a rather actual question. Face it CCP, you put no real efforts in quality assurance, and thats a BAD business policy.

Please CCP, think about starting some public testing. No, you shouldnt ask your paying customers to test for you, as only those blessed with 24 hrs free time a day (or with a seemingly endless love towards this game) will do it.

The only way you can get any reasonable testing done - unless u hire a large testing team - is to give people a chance to play on chaos FOR FREE (like you did in beta).

Sure, you could limit the actual number of testers to a given ammount, but not all of them would be online all the time anyway. Consider it as a great way to advertise your game. If its so great, and i think it is, those testers may very well consider joining the live game as well.

This way, you would have the chance to get a big deal of the bugs out, before they make it into Tranq. Chaos would have a stable (even if smaller) playerbase, so paying customers would probably visit it more often, as they wouldnt feel alone there.

Other option would be to give players some motivation to test. Like a reduction in their monthly subscription, if they spend a specified ammount of time testing. An interresting idea would be to take 50% of the subscription, and divide that 50% based on how many hours the player spent on chaos compared to tranq.

For example, someone who spends half his time on chaos, would only have to pay 50% of that 50%. Someone else, who only spent abt 1/10 of his time there would get 5% reduction, etc. Up to 100% time spent, where the user would only have to pay 50% of the actual subscription.

Would still feel rather stupid for actually paying to work for you. I would recommend the first option: Open (free) testing.

Bottomline for CCP and those who tell others to test on Chaos intead of complaining about bugs:

DO not except paying customers to do free work for you. We do a favor already by posting bug reports. We do a favor by paying for a game, thats barely release quality. I think its just fair to except some compensation for those who actually help you making this game better.

Nah, it was a rather long rant... time to finish. Hope im not the only one who think the solutions outlined above could make the game better.

Posted - 2003.09.19 11:16:00 - [2]


Posted - 2003.09.19 11:17:00 - [3]

but wouldn t this scare potential customers of?

i d add an extra, perhaps free icecream?

HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2003.09.19 11:24:00 - [4]

Edited by: csebal on 19/09/2003 11:25:14
See, the game was not that different during the beta, except that we had even more bugs there, and i was unlucky enough to only join during the later stages (i would have liked to be there when it started).

Still i think, those who participated the beta are the ones who are not considering to leave the game. We all knew what we'll get when we bought it, so there was no big suprise there.

Im only suprised to see, that CCP is seemingly counting on his paying customers to continue to test the game for free, which is ridiculous in my eyes.

Not to wonder they never came to the idea of setting slaves free trough agents ;)

Tyrion Nydaerin
The Yakuza
Posted - 2003.09.19 11:26:00 - [5]

The icecream is a must.

Posted - 2003.09.19 11:33:00 - [6]

Bah, your aiming at the harder of the two nuts to crack my friends...

I suggest CCP start releasing SMALLER patches, and do it more frequently.

this way every week a new bug will be introduced and an old one killed.

As it is we sometimes have to wait months for a bug created in the last patch to be solved.

Now maybe it's just me, but that is a LONG time for some of these bugs to get squashed.

I'm also pretty used to new stuff not working right the first time it's released into EVE.

Thats not a good thing to have customers used to.

everyone was going on and on about how cool it was to have implants finaly making it into the game. I said simply: Bah I'm not even going to bother to try to get them because I bet you dollars to donoughts they will be borked due to some obvious and pathetic bug/exploit and be taken back or otherwise removed... til it's fixed.

since testing is too hard improve, at the VERY LEAST improve response time by releasing smaller patches on TQ.

sure some people say: but chaos is supposed to be testing everything all the time. so if it's on chaos longer it will be better...

Well If that was the case, then please explain to me why this patch bombed so hard core on TQ in terms of bugs?

And yes I DO test on Chaos when I have the interest and time. So don't you DARE call me a hypocrit unless your just being funny Very Happy

Anyway I'd like to finish up this post on a positive note, despite these complaints, EVE is still a great game, and I still find it worth the $13 a month. I applaud the Devs for thier vision, and the potential they have breathed into this game.

I guess the reason I get so critical is because I know CCP has a great game on thier hands just waiting to mature. If EVE lasts into 1-2 years from now, I bet we won't even recognize it compaired to how it is now, beyond the wonderful graphics I mean. I'm sure we'll all be glad we're playing it as well.

If an expansion comes out, I swear I will cry, especialy if it includes the ability to get out of your ship hehehe.

Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2003.09.19 11:52:00 - [7]

Csebel good idea , i think its easy and reasonable to do.

I could test and report bugs in beta and it was ok,but no way i will now be wasting my time testing on chaos when im paying for this.

Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2003.09.19 11:53:00 - [8]

The icecream is a must.


HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2003.09.19 12:47:00 - [9]

Edited by: csebal on 19/09/2003 12:48:16
Edited by: csebal on 19/09/2003 12:47:20
The icecream is a must.

I definitely agree with that statement. Choclate if i may ask ;)

btw: demangel
I was not discussing the way patching should be done, i just voiced my concern about CCP building on players testing the game, as this will eventually lead to the casual gamer leaving, which afterall will force eve to be abandoned (leaving us, eve fans without a game to play).

Chaos is practically useless now - based on the ammount of bugs coming trough -, as there are not enough people there to test. Im sure one night on TQ can bring out more bugs than a week on Chaos.

My idea was aimed to have a stable player base on chaos, who would do nothing but playin with the stuff there. This should be free however, as its nothign else than testing work done for the company. To be honest, they are the ones who should pay for it, but i would be happy, if they would simply let people - who are willing - to playtest there for free - regardless whether or not they do have a live eve acc.

And yes, i would also love to see EVE having its first (and second, third, etc) expansion released sometime in the future. Exactly thats why im concerned about these issues. Go check the online graphs on It has a falling tendency over the past months, which is not a good sign.

Please CCP, do something to keep players in the game (quick glue? anyone?)

Posted - 2003.09.19 12:55:00 - [10]

First Expansion: The Invasion of the BUGs

Exilis inc.
Posted - 2003.09.19 12:57:00 - [11]

This would suck for CCP.

First, Chaos doesn't have the hardware for this. So they would have to buy something new. That would cost money.

Secondly, all the bugs and frequent changes would scare people away.

Posted - 2003.09.19 14:05:00 - [12]

It seems from what I have read in other posts and from what I have heard personally on the Help channel prior to the patch, that many of the bugs that went live were known and reported. So it is not necessarily a matter of these bugs slipping through due to lack of testing. Seriously, how could some of the bugs that went live in the patch been a surprise to CCP? Within 10 minutes of post patch play, hundreds of folks were screaming about them.

Many of these bugs were so obvious and so wide spread that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that CCP knew about them and for whatever reason couldn't be bothered to fix them. It was full speed ahead to get that patch out come hell or high water.

HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2003.09.19 15:41:00 - [13]

Edited by: csebal on 19/09/2003 15:41:30
While playing the beta, i recall of having patches every other day or so (during the last weeks). Lots of bugs, yet none of them scared me. And i haven't really cared, as it was free. So i just posted a bug report and went along.

By the way, do you think its scary to have bugs on a test server, and people would stop testing?
How do you think people react then after releasing a patch like this to paying customers?

If they would get to play for free on chaos, they wouldn't be scared of bugs and frequent changes, as it costs them nothing.

bottom line: put more effort into QA.

Aslash Tafarin
Posted - 2003.09.19 16:21:00 - [14]

I too am appalled at the lack of Quality Assurance as demonstrated by the last few major patches. The two server architecture (Chaos and Tranquility) does not seem to be conductive to stable code changes. It may require a third server to bring back a measure of stability to patches.

My suggestion is this:

Use Chaos to develop and balance and debug new services, skills, items.

Use the new server as a staging server where only code that has been approved for a patch is tested for at least 3-5 days before being implemented on Tranquility. This will hopefully fix or eliminate code that relies on changes made to Chaos, but not yet implemented on TQ.

If CCP is going to rely on the player base for testing, some sort of incentive should be implemented to ensure that enough people with different objectives and playing styles participate. A list of changes that need to be tested along with a synopsis of how they are supposed to work would be a big help.

Once the code is tested and stable, then and only then should it be released to TQ.

HeartVenom Inc.
Posted - 2003.09.19 16:25:00 - [15]

i suggest eve does what earth and beyond used 2 do, release a patch once per month that removes all previous bugs, adds gameplay for another month, and is 200 mb big (includes new enemys, systems, voices etc etc).

Posted - 2003.09.19 16:26:00 - [16]

i suggest eve does what earth and beyond used 2 do, release a patch once per month that removes all previous bugs, adds gameplay for another month, and is 200 mb big (includes new enemys, systems, voices etc etc).

How about they just fix the bugs... for starters :)

Rizzy Corp
Posted - 2003.09.19 16:33:00 - [17]

Im sure everyone involved in the game do all they can, please this whinging is counter productive, people who are thinking of playing this game read the forums first, dont scare them off, i have played other mmorpg games in the past, the game is still young, and with all mmorpg games they have teething problems, all this negative stuff is not helping, what would you prefer, playing beta and knowing the character you make is only temporary or play retail and make the best of a new game with problems which will get sorted out but not overnight ?
Personaly i like this game a lot, and the GM's are great, not many mmorpg games have GM's round the clock to help out, please have patience for a great game, support the game by being philosophical about problems, they will be sorted, dont kill the game i love.

Doctor One
Feral Tendency
Posted - 2003.09.19 17:39:00 - [18]

I've really tried holding myself back from writing an opinion on the updates. I've let the first few slip by; because I know that they are a new company working on a new product. I keep saying to myself that they've made some mistakes, and they'll learn from them, but this last one is really making me concerned.

In a recent CSM chat, CCP mentioned their QA team. I am suprised to see that they actually have one. In my opinion, they are the most overpaid individuals in the world. I'd offer my services, but I truly doubt that they could afford me.

I currently work in a software development environment, and I have been, off and on, since 1995. As part of that work, I've done QA testing, and I must say that what I've seen in Eve has me concerned. Over the past two months, I haven't seen any glimmer of effort done to QA the updates before their release.

The chat interface is just getting worse. I really have a problem with "fixes" being put in place which just introduce a bug that is more game-affecting than what it was supposed to fix. In my opinion, the chat interface was actually working better months ago, than it is now.

The "Build Master" needs to be doing more than just making sure the code compiles without errors.

Also, the "GUI Lord" needs to purchase and read a book on accepted standards and practices of GUI designs.

I've also seen in the CSM chats, where a widely known bug is mentioned, and the developers reply with something like "I wasn't aware of this problem". There seems to be a gap between the relating of bugs via bug reports and the forums, and the developer's desks. I don't pretend to know what this gap is, but please fix it. There are problems, and the developers need to be made aware of them right away.

By the way, after the recent mod stacking changes, I'd also like to see the skills like small/medium/large hybrid give bonuses to tracking instead of (or as well as) damage. It just doesn't seem to matter how much potential damage I can do with my 425mm if I can't actually hit the target very often.

Posted - 2003.09.19 21:47:00 - [19]


I've also seen in the CSM chats, where a widely known bug is mentioned, and the developers reply with something like "I wasn't aware of this problem". There seems to be a gap between the relating of bugs via bug reports and the forums, and the developer's desks. I don't pretend to know what this gap is, but please fix it. There are problems, and the developers need to be made aware of them right away.

nice post.

actually the "i wasn t aware of it" happened in every single chatlog i read so far.

i imagined they would just stick a paper to the wall of a meeting room with all the bugs on it.

though after the last patch they might need a lot of wall...Rolling Eyes

btw it would be nice if we had a place where we could check all known issues. might safe them lots of double posts.

Posted - 2003.09.19 22:27:00 - [20]

I would login to Chaos if they did more frequent character updates and if there was someone to coördinate the testing and tells me what I have to test because it has not been tested by others yet.

Posted - 2003.09.19 23:02:00 - [21]

First Expansion: The Invasion of the BUGs

Second Expansion: The BUGLancer..


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