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ForceMajeure
Posted - 2006.04.07 14:41:00 - [1]
 

This is just something I've been thinking about...Not looking for flaming, just a philisophical discussion.

IRL you have 3 types of people, good people, criminals, and People who are crimnals at heart but abhor the penalties (ie jail).

Along comes EVE where deviant behavior is atleast encouraged if not rewarded.

Theft and assault run rampant through the game.

Theft, while some aspects IMO are legitimate role playing (ie ore thieves as much as I despise them Very Happy ) others such as the abundance of escrow cons are just immoral, again IMO. Now Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that something needs to be changed.

Assault is not PvP, assault is the 10m SP guy that lacks the testicular fortitute to goto 0.0 so he preys on noobs in emire .4's with impunity, relativly sure that he is safe. Honestly, does anyone expect to get l33t mods from a 2-week State War Acadamy Noob? This is where EVE comes to the rescue, affording full concord protection to low-sec pirates with bounties. Which has always seemed odd being that the bounties were placed through concord.

QuestionSo what do you think, Does EVE bring out the Mr Hyde in people by having little to no penalty for one's actions?Question

"Justice can never prevail where might is right" -- I forget Embarassed

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.07 14:47:00 - [2]
 

Crime: Online? YARRRR!!

CCP Wrangler

Posted - 2006.04.07 14:50:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: ForceMajeure
QuestionSo what do you think, Does EVE bring out the Mr Hyde in people by having little to no penalty for one's actions?Question

Not EVE, but certainly the interweb. Wink

We've been surprised how people who are complete [CENSORED] in game or on the forums are nice and well adjusted individuals when you meet them in real life.

Haks'he Lirky
Durgarnir
Posted - 2006.04.07 14:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 07/04/2006 14:59:19

eh, I grief in eve, I declare on "noob" corps mainly because im bored and dont have the time for the realstuff.

Ive been called scum or whatnot and many remarks made on my "deviant" personality.

Eve is a game and I cant for the life of me accept any comparisons with real life, the game offers me a chance to do stuff and I do it and have as much fun as is provided to me within scope of the game mechanics.

Easy pvp is achieved by picking out a smallish corp to check if they respond to the pvp or if they hide in stations, in one or two weeks the war is over and everyone moves on. No one is hurt and therefore there are no social price being paid by the aggressed, hence I cannot see how this behaviour can be deemed anti-social.

Have fun.

EDIT:
Oh and I thought I would like to mention, I have more friends in eve from corporations that I have attacked without any reason or cause and since I aggressed them and introduced them to pvp action some of them have moved on to become active pvp'ers. So I the deviant scum have through my lazy behaviour of picking on easy prey helped players realise the potential that they have within the EVE universe.

The Chef
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.07 14:57:00 - [5]
 

Yes I think it does bring out the worst in certain individuals. Not everyone though, some of us have a set of morals that we stick to. The problem is some people will take advantage of this or use underhanded tatics which makes things much harder - like noobs in 0.0... they all have to die because it could be a new player or it could be a spy.

babyblue
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:03:00 - [6]
 


Most people are nice and well adjusted when you meet them in real-life. Given the opportunity to be anything else, some of them surely would be (1% of people are Sociopathic). People rarely move outside of the boundaries dictated by social imperitives, unless they find themselves in unusual situations. This was the essential insight about human nature in Golding's Lord Of The Flies. So because you are meeting "normal, adjusted people", does not mean they don't have issues. It simply means that they are contained within the situation to be so.

But the point the OP I think was making, was that Crime and Criminal Activity in Eve is just so visible compared to other aspects of the game. It's so blatant. No level of subtlety at all. It is Crime Online to all intents and purposes - not because the majority of people take part, but because those that succeed in this particular area of the game have the vanity to shout about it louder than others may about their own particular achievements.

There was an article some time ago about The Simms Online in the Times, which basically showed what happened to a Virtual Environment when there was no effective counterweight to destructive behaviour - by destructive I don't mean blowing stuff up - I mean negative in all senses - breaking social cohesion, selfish behaviour and all dozen or so other fragments of "badness". In Eve there are effective counterweights (for now).

I'm sure you could imagine what the real world would be like if it were run by 14 year old males. And it isn't a pretty picture!

Shocked

Kanae
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:05:00 - [7]
 

I wouldn't say it brings out the worst in people.

I would say it allows people act in ways that they are not comfortable or able to in real life. Greed, envy, etc. are sins but is there such thing as virtual sin?

Well end of my 2cents before I get moderated....

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:07:00 - [8]
 



People do whats "easiest" for them....


I wise man once said (or was it a woman? Wink, )

It is far easier to destroy than create....

Cool

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:10:00 - [9]
 

I don't. I think eve tends to bring out the best in people. Have you had a look at other games?

Ominus Decre
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:13:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ominus Decre on 07/04/2006 15:21:08
Originally by: ForceMajeure
This is just something I've been thinking about...Not looking for flaming, just a philisophical discussion.

IRL you have 3 types of people, good people, criminals, and People who are crimnals at heart but abhor the penalties (ie jail).

Along comes EVE where deviant behavior is atleast encouraged if not rewarded.

Theft and assault run rampant through the game.




I find it hard to swallow that there's only "three types of people" in this world. How does a "good" person fare if their living standards are illegal in different territories? Does that make them evil or a criminal, or is "evil" simply a matter of relevance?

Downloading movies, games, music, software, etc...has all been labled as illegal yet a large portion of internet users do so. Does this give validty to see if you are using the internet then you are a criminal?

One of the best selling video games of all time, Grand Theft Auto (GTA), rewards unscrupolous activty which in real life would either get you killed or reward you with a life sentence in a maximum secruity prison. Are players of these game criminals for performing criminal activities in a virtual setting?

EVE has an open element of game choices very similar to GTA. Players are rewarded through hijacking or anhililating innocents through player prestige and or acquired assets. I commonly refer to EVE as "kinda like a Grand Theft Auto meets an amazingly detailed space opera" to others who may play it. My description has brought a few players into EVE for that nonrestrive feature of game play.

I think like a criminal in real life and skirt along the lines of law whereas crossing it during some circumstances. Does that make me a criminal or an "evil" person?


ForceMajeure
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:24:00 - [11]
 

I must admit declaring 3 "types" of people is an over-generalization Very Happy

Originally by: Ominus Decre


I think like a criminal in real life and skirt along the lines of law whereas crossing it during some circumstances. Does that make me a criminal or an "evil" person?




That would make you one of those grey area people... Perhaps I should have worded it "people with criminally prone minds" Twisted Evil

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:25:00 - [12]
 

I've always loved this quote, tell me if this sounds like your average EVE player pirate:

Quote:
The crimes of [pirates] are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence. While almost all societies would regard them as criminals (the exception being frontier or warlike societies where they might become heroes, patriots, or leaders), it's important to distinguish their behavior from criminal behavior.


Certainly sounds like the justifications and actions of pirates in EVE right? It's also the clinical definition of a psychopath.
YARRRR!!

I really don't buy the "I'm a nice guy in RL but EVE's just a game" line some people try to use. You don't naturally act like a psychopath unless there was something there to begin with. The anonimity of the internet freeing you from the social limits to do as you please. To do as you please.

Karunel
Princeps Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:37:00 - [13]
 

What an idiotic statement, Kylania. That's like saying anyone who plays a FPS is a potential killer. Don't get me started on Mortal Kombat "fatalities". Oooh so cruel, you must be bad in the head to enjoy it. Rolling Eyes

babyblue
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:44:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Karunel
What an idiotic statement, Kylania. That's like saying anyone who plays a FPS is a potential killer. Don't get me started on Mortal Kombat "fatalities". Oooh so cruel, you must be bad in the head to enjoy it. Rolling Eyes


This is a very good point - I think you have to remember that the social bounds within which a player can operate are, in that context, entirely defined by the act of smacking each other over the head with large rubber mallets. Morally, the fact you immediately respawn and never lose any persistent state is another consideration (apart from "points" perhaps). It's more like pillow fighting your kid brother than anything else.

In Eve, the depth of behaviour and the moral bounds are much, much wider. Moreover, the investment of personal time and effort into aquiring server state ("things") can be enormous. This makes Eve a totally different game to the FPS above with social rules that are far more complex.


Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:45:00 - [15]
 

FM: You are from WoW, right? Your name is very familiar...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: ForceMajeure
This is just something I've been thinking about...Not looking for flaming, just a philisophical discussion.

IRL you have 3 types of people, good people, criminals, and People who are crimnals at heart but abhor the penalties (ie jail).

Along comes EVE where deviant behavior is atleast encouraged if not rewarded.

Theft and assault run rampant through the game.

Theft, while some aspects IMO are legitimate role playing (ie ore thieves as much as I despise them Very Happy ) others such as the abundance of escrow cons are just immoral, again IMO. Now Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that something needs to be changed.

Assault is not PvP, assault is the 10m SP guy that lacks the testicular fortitute to goto 0.0 so he preys on noobs in emire .4's with impunity, relativly sure that he is safe. Honestly, does anyone expect to get l33t mods from a 2-week State War Acadamy Noob? This is where EVE comes to the rescue, affording full concord protection to low-sec pirates with bounties. Which has always seemed odd being that the bounties were placed through concord.

QuestionSo what do you think, Does EVE bring out the Mr Hyde in people by having little to no penalty for one's actions?Question

"Justice can never prevail where might is right" -- I forget Embarassed




...it brings about my bloodlust and insanity. How's that for bringing the worst of me?Twisted Evil

Mike Moss
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:49:00 - [17]
 

EVE does not seem to me to be worse than WoW for instance in bringing out the worst in people. WoW offers more safeguards and more options to protect new players and casual PvE players, that's all.

I myself, and I think the vast majority of other players I have met so far, find "griefing" or theft or scamming to be simply things that we do not do in real life and we do not do them in EVE's electronic dreamscape either.

In most of us, civilization is more than skin deep, we really believe in its principles in all times and all places; but those for whom civilization is only a facade will always be with us, alas.

Angelique deMornay
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kylania
I really don't buy the "I'm a nice guy in RL but EVE's just a game" line some people try to use. You don't naturally act like a psychopath unless there was something there to begin with. The anonimity of the internet freeing you from the social limits to do as you please. To do as you please.


I am with Kylania on this one. Why do people pirate, kill, scam and/or grief in the EVE Universe? To me, the answer is simple: because you can. At least without the consequences and repercussions of the real world. "But it is only a game, it is just for fun!". Exactly my point. If you did not find it fun to grief on a fundamental level, you would not do it to begin with. YARRRR!!

babyblue
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:21:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Angelique deMornay
Originally by: Kylania
I really don't buy the "I'm a nice guy in RL but EVE's just a game" line some people try to use. You don't naturally act like a psychopath unless there was something there to begin with. The anonimity of the internet freeing you from the social limits to do as you please. To do as you please.


I am with Kylania on this one. Why do people pirate, kill, scam and/or grief in the EVE Universe? To me, the answer is simple: because you can. At least without the consequences and repercussions of the real world. "But it is only a game, it is just for fun!". Exactly my point. If you did not find it fun to grief on a fundamental level, you would not do it to begin with. YARRRR!!


I agree with this also to an extent, unless there is some functional dissociation that some players are able to undergo, which might well be a possibility. For instance, I find role play very hard to do without bursting out laughing. I didn't used to have a problem with it when I played Doctors and Nurses when I was a kid. Some people really get into their characters, which I find quite amusing. Of course they bring some real-life personality to the table, but just because Gary Oldman always plays a bad guy in the movies, does that mean he's a bad guy in real life? He's a good actor. A lot of role players role playing ****ers are probably good actors too (ie. good at visualising and playing the character they've chosen). Some are just being their real-life ******** selves of course, but I don't think that's the majority in Eve at all.

It's more complicated than you think, for sure.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Wrangler
Originally by: ForceMajeure
QuestionSo what do you think, Does EVE bring out the Mr Hyde in people by having little to no penalty for one's actions?Question

Not EVE, but certainly the interweb. Wink

We've been surprised how people who are complete [CENSORED] in game or on the forums are nice and well adjusted individuals when you meet them in real life.


What did you call me?

Let's fight...

Next fanfest, you and me, in the ring...

Mort Sinious
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:27:00 - [21]
 

I was flamed to death (nearly that, you can still see me posting ;)) last time I said that I think morals also belong into a game where humans inteact with each other. Will try it again anyway.

Many people seem to detach their virtual self from anythin resembling to morals and tell me to not compare RL to EVE. I don't do that, I just think that playing a bit more civil wouldn't hurt eve-online.
And Im no carebear. I like piracy and theft as parts of the game. What some often forget is, that those two things are only that: A part of the game and not more. It's not THE thing to do in EVE and you wont be a cooler or more 1337 guy if you gank more people than me.

Marcsen
Black Sheeps
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:30:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Marcsen on 07/04/2006 16:30:01
I'm psycho in RL but nice in Eve, does that make me special? Cool

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mort Sinious
I was flamed to death (nearly that, you can still see me posting ;)) last time I said that I think morals also belong into a game where humans inteact with each other. Will try it again anyway.

Many people seem to detach their virtual self from anythin resembling to morals and tell me to not compare RL to EVE. I don't do that, I just think that playing a bit more civil wouldn't hurt eve-online.
And Im no carebear. I like piracy and theft as parts of the game. What some often forget is, that those two things are only that: A part of the game and not more. It's not THE thing to do in EVE and you wont be a cooler or more 1337 guy if you gank more people than me.


Who I am in-game and on the forums is pretty much me...

I know a lot of ppl say they role-play, maybe they do, but I believe everyone who plays EVE show's off a bit of their true selves...

Neue Regel
Minmatar
Deadly Metal Incorporation
Namtz'aar k'in
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:33:00 - [24]
 

I was a boxer for most of my youth and twenties. I also have been in my share of bar and street fights. I have never looked for or beat up 5 year olds to 'practice' on or even pad my RL kill boards. I say this because some people in this game donít have any balls and choose to only attack what would be the same type of player (little children) instead of going up against a formidable opponent. They are pitiful in my book.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:35:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Neue Regel
I was a boxer for most of my youth and twenties. I also have been in my share of bar and street fights. I have never looked for or beat up 5 year olds to 'practice' on or even pad my RL kill boards. I say this because some people in this game donít have any balls and choose to only attack what would be the same type of player (little children) instead of going up against a formidable opponent. They are pitiful in my book.


WORD

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:37:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Bhaal on 07/04/2006 16:38:07
Originally by: Neue Regel
I was a boxer for most of my youth and twenties. I also have been in my share of bar and street fights. I have never looked for or beat up 5 year olds to 'practice' on or even pad my RL kill boards. I say this because some people in this game donít have any balls and choose to only attack what would be the same type of player (little children) instead of going up against a formidable opponent. They are pitiful in my book.


Cool, maybe you can beat up Wrangler for me then...

As I am not a boxer, and don't really fight...

I've never had anyone start anything with me.

I would like to train like a boxer though, you guys are always in such good shape... Unless we're talking Butter Bean here...

Kurren
The Legion.
Requiem-Aeternam
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:38:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kurren on 07/04/2006 16:49:57
WTF kinda stupd questin is that?! Duz Eve brig oout teh worsed in poeple?! STFU NOOB OMG!!!1! WTFE!!Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

Razz

No, Eve doesn't... I blame the rap music...

Originally by: Angelique deMornay
Originally by: Kylania
I really don't buy the "I'm a nice guy in RL but EVE's just a game" line some people try to use. You don't naturally act like a psychopath unless there was something there to begin with. The anonimity of the internet freeing you from the social limits to do as you please. To do as you please.


I am with Kylania on this one. Why do people pirate, kill, scam and/or grief in the EVE Universe? To me, the answer is simple: because you can. At least without the consequences and repercussions of the real world. "But it is only a game, it is just for fun!". Exactly my point. If you did not find it fun to grief on a fundamental level, you would not do it to begin with. YARRRR!!
Yeah, I played GTA 3 and enjoyed beating up old people with clubs and running people over... but I wouldn't enjoy doing it in real life. People are animals, but we are also civilized. We have a lust for gore, but know the difference between right and wrong. Deep down (deep, deep down), IMHO, I believe everybody wants to know what it's like to kill somebody, but because we are human (most of us) we would never act upon that curiosity. That's why we always root for Arnold when he's gunning down all those bad guys. That's why boxing is such a popular sport. That's why people only watch hockey for the fights and NASCAR for the wrecks. We lust for animalistic behavior, but we tame that lust because it is what keeps us at the top of the food chain.

Saying Eve brings out the worsed in people is wrong. People have (myself included) built courage inside themselves because of the PvP aspect of Eve. Sticking around to fight (and sticking up for yourself) is noble despite winning or losing, and nobody can tell you otherwise though they often try.

There's a bit of an old quote from somebody back in the Roman/Greek empire days... this is not the full quote, but it sounds like this...

"Kill one man and you are a murderer.
Kill 100,000 men and you are an emperor."

My apologies if I misquoted...

Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:38:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 07/04/2006 16:39:06
EVE is a game, it brings out the part of people that likes to 'win'.

Chess can be a pretty ruthless game sometimes too. It doesn't mean that the players have fantasies of regicide outside of the game.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:40:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/04/2006 16:40:53
Aye its just the interweb to be honest.

People know they can be arses with little repercussion.

Remember, 2 + 2 = 5 on the internet.

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.04.07 16:48:00 - [30]
 

Eve brings out the "people" in people.


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