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FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 04:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: FlyinFish Shriker on 06/04/2006 04:53:25
The idea was brought up by this post

While I agree that podding is neccesary, for the expense of implants. However, what's the point of cloning anyways? It's not like it's a money sink -- cloning fee is like a dime; it's not gonna the the ultimate revenge too either, it's unlikely your enemy does not get a new clone immediately after death.

So it's basically punishing those who accidentally forget about it, or careless. Is that the sole purpose of having cloning?

Edit: I mean, why can't we have our skillpoints kept automatically without having to buy those clones?

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.04.06 04:54:00 - [2]
 

It's the risk of loss. They start with a game in which you can lose everything and then cushion that by adding in game mechanisms like clones and insurance.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:04:00 - [3]
 

Trust me 10 million isk a pop is enough to make even rich people irritated.

Its not so much the money as it is having to pay it.

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:06:00 - [4]
 

I know what you are saying and it's one of the fundamentals of EVE.

But it sounds like death penalty to me.
And usually such harsh penalties are applied to people who deserves it, if you commit a genocide(in RL that is), you ****ed off people from some major alliance bad enough, you fought too bravely and knows no retreat, and etc.

But giving such harsh penalty to people who weren't careful is not so right...

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Trust me 10 million isk a pop is enough to make even rich people irritated.

Its not so much the money as it is having to pay it.


sorry, I dont quite get it...

In my understanding, 10 million isk for those 30~40 million SP chars is no big deal. Considering it's just a small amount on top of their multi-hundred million ship and equipments.

Unless they fly shuttle every day and get podded that way.

Cringeley
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:22:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
While I agree that podding is neccesary, for the expense of implants. However, what's the point of cloning anyways? It's not like it's a money sink -- cloning fee is like a dime; it's not gonna the the ultimate revenge too either, it's unlikely your enemy does not get a new clone immediately after death.
In some places clone bays are not plentiful, or else you can't get a medical bay in the same station as some other services you might want, like an available office, forcing you to fly from one station to another without an up-to-date clone to set your new clone.

Nooey
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:22:00 - [7]
 

Lost BS V and Cruiser V because I forgot to update clone and went and duelled an Ishkur. 1,000,000+ SP's gone because I'd clonejumped down to the area moments earlier.

Skillpoints shouldn't be kept automatically. Death penalty is avoidable, just like almost any nasty in Eve. If you forget, you pay the price and move on. Wink


Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.04.06 05:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
I know what you are saying and it's one of the fundamentals of EVE.

But it sounds like death penalty to me.
And usually such harsh penalties are applied to people who deserves it, if you commit a genocide(in RL that is), you ****ed off people from some major alliance bad enough, you fought too bravely and knows no retreat, and etc.

But giving such harsh penalty to people who weren't careful is not so right...

Yes, it's death penalty. And if anything I wish it were higher. You should be penalised for dying, otherwise death has no meaning and is a minor inconvenience. Have you seen some of the weak crap games pass off as death penalty? In Everquest 2, you gain about 1% "XP Debt" when you die and you get that back by fighting A SINGLE MONSTER. Your gear loses 10% durability when you die and when it reaches 0, you can't wear it any more but you can pay a mender a TINY amount of money to fix it for you. People jump off mountains to get home when they're too lazy to walk - I know I do. There's just no real penalty for dying. And yet people still complain about what little death penalty they have. People will always complain.

Harsh death penalties give death meaning and I think that's important in an MMO. It may be a game, but that doesn't mean death has to be of no consequence. At least it's not a complete, permanant death like in real life.

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:46:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
I know what you are saying and it's one of the fundamentals of EVE.

But it sounds like death penalty to me.
And usually such harsh penalties are applied to people who deserves it, if you commit a genocide(in RL that is), you ****ed off people from some major alliance bad enough, you fought too bravely and knows no retreat, and etc.

But giving such harsh penalty to people who weren't careful is not so right...

Yes, it's death penalty. And if anything I wish it were higher. You should be penalised for dying, otherwise death has no meaning and is a minor inconvenience. Have you seen some of the weak crap games pass off as death penalty? In Everquest 2, you gain about 1% "XP Debt" when you die and you get that back by fighting A SINGLE MONSTER. Your gear loses 10% durability when you die and when it reaches 0, you can't wear it any more but you can pay a mender a TINY amount of money to fix it for you. People jump off mountains to get home when they're too lazy to walk - I know I do. There's just no real penalty for dying. And yet people still complain about what little death penalty they have. People will always complain.

Harsh death penalties give death meaning and I think that's important in an MMO. It may be a game, but that doesn't mean death has to be of no consequence. At least it's not a complete, permanant death like in real life.


Well, if you read my post, I never meant that the harsh penalty should be removed. I was saying such penalty should be given to the proper victim.

Like in life you don't punish people with death penalty if he forgets his key to home right?

Jane A
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:54:00 - [10]
 

Thhow do you define proper victim? how can you be sure that a loyal citizen will not turn into a nasty pirate in the future?

Eternal Fury
Rage of Inferno
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:55:00 - [11]
 

These will help you understand what cloneing is all about. Well, more specifically, most of the back story, but that will help.

Cloneing is used so that combat is not Finite.

It's a way that the game can have death, without being Dead. No more. gone.

In real life, if your ship was shot down you'd be dead, end of story.

most people don't like games like that anymore.

if eve had no Clones, then NOONE would PvP.

I mean, can you imagine? You loose a PvP match to say 5 other ships, and you start right back at the very begining in your Ibis. loose all your skills, all your Isk, all your ships... everything..

Nobody would play the game.

As for why pods are here, it's an imersion/timesink/isk sink.

OMGWTF my ship is GONE. QUICK WARP THE POD OUT!!! AHHHHHHHH

Instead of.. ohh crap. lost my ship.. well, back to the station..

it's to give you a sense of urgency when your ship is destoryed.

petergriffen
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:55:00 - [12]
 

You say that people with tens of millions of skillpoints can easily afford it. I wonder how that revelation came to you. Having 20 or 30 or 40 million skillpoints doesn't necessarily mean you're a billionaire. Any PvPer involved in a major war can tell you when you lose a T2 fitted battleship worth over 200 million after insurance and get podded afterwards, the hit is much greater. You lose a bunch of ships and have to replace a bunch of clones, it comes around to you. If you can't replace a clone, you're effectively out of the fight until you can.

Thus we see what may be a minor inconvenience possibly turning into a major one. Having over 20 million skillpoints I can tell you I don't enjoy paying 8 million isk on a clone when I could invest that isk into mods for an already expensive ship.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:56:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: Gierling
Trust me 10 million isk a pop is enough to make even rich people irritated.

Its not so much the money as it is having to pay it.


sorry, I dont quite get it...

In my understanding, 10 million isk for those 30~40 million SP chars is no big deal. Considering it's just a small amount on top of their multi-hundred million ship and equipments.

Unless they fly shuttle every day and get podded that way.

There is no correlation between wealth and skillpoints. Not as much as you'd think.

Common to have around 200 to 300 in reserve, and loosing 10 million is a blow either way you look at it. It's not much, but it matters. It also ensures that there's some sort of loss that people loosing combat clones (clone jumping) actually looses more than just a jump clone fee of 10k ISK.

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:57:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Cringeley
Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
While I agree that podding is neccesary, for the expense of implants. However, what's the point of cloning anyways? It's not like it's a money sink -- cloning fee is like a dime; it's not gonna the the ultimate revenge too either, it's unlikely your enemy does not get a new clone immediately after death.
In some places clone bays are not plentiful, or else you can't get a medical bay in the same station as some other services you might want, like an available office, forcing you to fly from one station to another without an up-to-date clone to set your new clone.


Hmm, that reminds me in my early days once set my clone to a station with no medical service and had to jump more than 10 .0 systems to get cloned again, was pretty scary. hehe

Your idea is interesting, there may be some special occasions where CCP can limit access to certain spaces by not providing cloning service in that area.

However, from my humble opinion, the idea of cloning -- which originally mainly was a fixed money sink and penalty, has voided in the evolving world. The reason why such system was originally implemented is no longer valid in current version and this system is doing things wasn't intended to.

And in such case, it should be either removed, or fixed to function properly( although I can't think of a proper way to fix it ).

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.06 17:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
So it's basically punishing those who accidentally forget about it, or careless. Is that the sole purpose of having cloning?


nothing wrong with punishing stupidity

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.06 18:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ithildin

There is no correlation between wealth and skillpoints. Not as much as you'd think.

Common to have around 200 to 300 in reserve, and loosing 10 million is a blow either way you look at it. It's not much, but it matters. It also ensures that there's some sort of loss that people loosing combat clones (clone jumping) actually looses more than just a jump clone fee of 10k ISK.


As you and petergriffen said, maybe I have under-estimated the cost of constant clone loses. Not like I have ever got that many ships to get constantly podded either.

So, if it's still a valid money sink, why not make the cloning fee automatically charged?

Stupidity should be punished, but not by death penalty.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.06 21:30:00 - [17]
 

Interesting idea, although some people prefere the choice. An alternative would be that you get a question box when podded asking (after pod goes pop) whether you want to use the latest cloning techniques (etc) or use less... preferable quality methods.

Also, I'm Intaki, can I please be reborn next time instead?

Drahkar
THE FINAL STAND
Posted - 2006.04.06 23:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: Ithildin

There is no correlation between wealth and skillpoints. Not as much as you'd think.

Common to have around 200 to 300 in reserve, and loosing 10 million is a blow either way you look at it. It's not much, but it matters. It also ensures that there's some sort of loss that people loosing combat clones (clone jumping) actually looses more than just a jump clone fee of 10k ISK.


As you and petergriffen said, maybe I have under-estimated the cost of constant clone loses. Not like I have ever got that many ships to get constantly podded either.

So, if it's still a valid money sink, why not make the cloning fee automatically charged?

Stupidity should be punished, but not by death penalty.


I agree about the automatic fee.

Tehyarec
Silverleaf Foundation
Posted - 2006.04.06 23:41:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Tehyarec on 06/04/2006 23:49:29
Do NOT equate bad memory to stupidity. Doing THAT is stupidity. I forget things all the time (like in EVE I've probably forgotten more drones behind than lost them to enemies). But I'm not exactly stupid.

Anyway, there's one thing I'd like to be clear to me. I've heard that if I get podded, I only get the first clone grade automatically? If I get podded, and then again before having bought a new better clone, do I really go down to 30 000 skill points, or how exactly does it work (if that's how it goes, I'm totally screwed, because I sure as hell won't remember to get a new clone with any certainty)? And then there's the whole deal with the jump clones... if nothing else, could someone provide a link where how these things work exactly are explained? A quick search didn't turn out too much, but maybe it's just because I'm tired Razz

EDIT: What brought this up is this part in the Player's Guide:

"When your clone is activated and you had more skill points than the clone was rated for, you stand to lose a percentage of the 'excess' skill points. This means you would have to train some skills back up to their previous levels, losing precious training time."

So, if it's just a percentage and not flatly down to the amount of skill points the clone retains, how does one know the percentage? So if I have just the damn 30k SP clone and die when I have 30mil SP, what do I retain?

Freya Runestone
Posted - 2006.04.07 00:17:00 - [20]
 

if there is one thing i like about eve compared to eve, its the risk. no other game has it in the same way.

if you forget to clone. its your own fault. its going to be a big loss. i know. but it is your own fault no matter how you put it.

i am against any sort of automated clone fee. (when you die you lose x times your SP in money and you get revived.) it takes a bit of the fun out of the game. you have to insure your survival ahead of a fight, not just fight, pay the fee, fight more, pay another fee, you have to be prepared.

and yes. having a clone at your corps HQ, sure is great. but kinda sucks when you have to fly to another system to get another clone

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.04.07 15:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Well, if you read my post, I never meant that the harsh penalty should be removed. I was saying such penalty should be given to the proper victim.

Like in life you don't punish people with death penalty if he forgets his key to home right?

I don't reply to posts without reading them.

The death penalty in eve is perfectly fine. I can't see how it's misplaced to punish people for dying. The entire purpose of the death penalty is to make dying a big enough deal to make you want to avoid it without completely marring your gameplay. It performs that job amicably.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.04.08 05:17:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cringeley
Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
While I agree that podding is neccesary, for the expense of implants. However, what's the point of cloning anyways? It's not like it's a money sink -- cloning fee is like a dime; it's not gonna the the ultimate revenge too either, it's unlikely your enemy does not get a new clone immediately after death.
In some places clone bays are not plentiful, or else you can't get a medical bay in the same station as some other services you might want, like an available office, forcing you to fly from one station to another without an up-to-date clone to set your new clone.


Except when you get podded, you'd come to in a medical station, and be able to re-update your clone?

Balazs Simon
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.04.08 10:04:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Balazs Simon on 08/04/2006 10:04:16
my clone is 16 mill nowdays, and I get poded regulary.. belive me.. its irritating .. my luck that the corps pays it for me Laughing

Danzig256k
Caldari
Mortal Devastating Kin
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.08 14:49:00 - [24]
 

i oppose cloning due to the fact it'll increase my chances of not getting laid!!!


heheheLaughing

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.08 14:53:00 - [25]
 

I thought real PvPers dont buy insurance or clone. Wink

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.08 15:06:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Tehyarec
Do NOT equate bad memory to stupidity. Doing THAT is stupidity.


yes, and if you get in a car crash, its OK, so long as you use the excuse "well, i forgot to steer. everyone forgets things. why should i be punished?"


 

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