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Case Micoud
Posted - 2006.03.27 09:37:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 09:39:52
You have the following options to take almost no damage if your opponent's ship is a turret based one:

- keep up the transversal,
- shoot him from optimal+fall off < range,
- use ew.

The last one can be used against missile ships too and needs some modules, but the first two options can be done with no modules basicaly and are a lot more effective using modules (speed booster, tracking disruptors...).

What can you do against missiles on the other hand? Specially if you use close range setups the defenders and smartbombs are very inefective (smartbombs kill missiles right?) and use one or more high slots.

I don't want to whine about that and I don't want to start another missile > turret thread. I just want an oppinion why is it that way. Why is there no "Guided missile precision disruptor"?

The point of my thread is to find out how is this "unfairness" balanced on the field?

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.03.27 09:41:00 - [2]
 

Another valid argument is that turrets are all countered by midslot items, but to counter missiles you need to sacrifice a high.

It's a valid point that there needs to be more counters to missiles.

it's also a valid point, however, that all weapon systems needn't be the same.

Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
the undivided
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.03.27 09:51:00 - [3]
 

Missiles have no counter.

*Defenders are useless and a waste of a Highslot
*Smartbombs are no way near as good as before due to increased missile velocity and activation lag.
*EW can be countered with FoF


Oh and you forgot tracking Disrupters to the Op Wink


Alliaanna

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:00:00 - [4]
 

Situation is fine IMO. Tracking disruptors are less of a lockdown than jammers, but more reliable if used right. There's really not all that many ships that don't have missile hardpoints.

The reason tracking disruptors aren't used by everyone all the time, is that there's only a relatively small number of ships that are solely turret based. They reduce the chance of turrets hitting in a fairly limited situation when the odds of them hitting are already reduced (e.g. orbiting or at long range).

But there still things that can be done, such as using one of the other weapons systems (e.g. webbing, drones or missiles).

*shrug* please remember that whilst there's no 'tracking disruptor' equivalent for missiles, there's also no tracking computer/enhancer equivalent.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Case Micoud
Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 09:39:52
You have the following options to take almost no damage if your opponent's ship is a turret based one:

- keep up the transversal,
- shoot him from optimal+fall off < range,
- use ew.

The last one can be used against missile ships too and needs some modules, but the first two options can be done with no modules basicaly and are a lot more effective using modules (speed booster, tracking disruptors...).

What can you do against missiles on the other hand? Specially if you use close range setups the defenders and smartbombs are very inefective (smartbombs kill missiles right?) and use one or more high slots.

I don't want to whine about that and I don't want to start another missile > turret thread. I just want an oppinion why is it that way. Why is there no "Guided missile precision disruptor"?

The point of my thread is to find out how is this "unfairness" balanced on the field?


Its not unfair. Take a drone ship, and try to defend against his drones while you keep up your traversal and use EW. You cant and you die.

I assume this is about precision missiles? Because normal heavy missiles doesnt hit you for much when you are in a ship with low signature and have good speed.

How come nobody is complaining about drones, but everybody seems to have a problem with precisions?

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:05:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

How come nobody is complaining about drones, but everybody seems to have a problem with precisions?



See: the drone thread on first page of this forum.

Originally by: James Lyrus
Situation is fine IMO. Tracking disruptors are less of a lockdown than jammers, but more reliable if used right. There's really not all that many ships that don't have missile hardpoints.


Err....fleet BSes.

Tempest
Geddon
Apoc
Megathron

There's *always* a ship to land a disruptor on.

The main reason they don't get used is:

a) Damps are better
b) Jamming is better
c) Damps are better
d) Damps are better

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:08:00 - [7]
 

* Missile users can still be jammed/EW

* FOFs do less damage than their normal counterparts, and target randomly (equal to tracking disruption?)

* Missiles are affected by movement, check out missile explosion velocity and missile velocity.

* Yes, defenders suck ass.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:09:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/03/2006 10:09:59
Originally by: Testy Mctest

See: the drone thread on first page of this forum.



I tried to find this but failed. Got a link?

Case Micoud
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:36:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 10:36:24
It is true, that I can lower the damage taken by going faster, but usually that means greater transversal wich means that at the same time I deal less damage or none if the opponent uses tracking disruptors. As I don't have tracking disruptors equivalent I die. I think that we have to look for the answer why elsewhere.

As for drones, you still can shoot them or smartbomb them or use your drones against them.

James Lyrus could be right:


Quote:
But there still things that can be done, such as using one of the other weapons systems (e.g. webbing, drones or missiles).


Maybe the turret based ships are more felxible, have more drone space for example. On the other hand, you can take out drones while my tracking is disrupted and then you are on me.

I'll have to try web a caracal while he uses tracking disr. on me, to see how much dmg I do. If we take in consideration that web is almost a must on turret based ships anyway, maybe tracking disruptors are more a waste of mid slots.

Spahn X
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:40:00 - [10]
 

A few smartbombs will demolish a drone fleet if done correctly. Also, a single ECM burst is likely to render most drones useless.

Cmdr Patrick
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:42:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cmdr Patrick on 27/03/2006 10:42:28
Originally by: FireFoxx80
* Missile users can still be jammed/EW

* FOFs do less damage than their normal counterparts, and target randomly (equal to tracking disruption?)

* Missiles are affected by movement, check out missile explosion velocity and missile velocity.

* Yes, defenders suck ass.


* Turrets can be jammed

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can.

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie)

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range

av ran out of whines here

migwar
Xenobytes
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:43:00 - [12]
 

If there was a mod to counter missile tracking. The problem would be the missile user would lose more damage compared to a turrer user as the missile damage is delivered in "lumps"


Laythun
Viziam
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Cmdr Patrick
Edited by: Cmdr Patrick on 27/03/2006 10:42:28
Originally by: FireFoxx80
* Missile users can still be jammed/EW

* FOFs do less damage than their normal counterparts, and target randomly (equal to tracking disruption?)

* Missiles are affected by movement, check out missile explosion velocity and missile velocity.

* Yes, defenders suck ass.


* Turrets can be jammed

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can.

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie)

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range

av ran out of whines here


*turrets a subject to ALL forms of EW.



Severe McCald
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:49:00 - [14]
 


Originally by: Case Micoud
It is true, that I can lower the damage taken by going faster, but usually that means greater transversal wich means that at the same time I deal less damage or none if the opponent uses tracking disruptors.



Why does it mean transversal? If you are attacking a missile ship just charge at it head on Razz

Sev

Death Princess3
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:52:00 - [15]
 

Personally i think they should just take out caldari because if they give a missle disruptor then caldari will be the baddest race. At the moment besides the vampdomi caldari are the best race in most aspects. So that all the turret users will stop cryin why dont they just delete caldari?

4 LOM
Serenus Legion
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:53:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: 4 LOM on 27/03/2006 10:53:42
Originally by: Cmdr Patrick
Edited by: Cmdr Patrick on 27/03/2006 10:42:28
Originally by: FireFoxx80
* Missile users can still be jammed/EW

* FOFs do less damage than their normal counterparts, and target randomly (equal to tracking disruption?)

* Missiles are affected by movement, check out missile explosion velocity and missile velocity.

* Yes, defenders suck ass.


* Turrets can be jammed

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can.

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie)

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range

av ran out of whines here



Learn how not to orbit and you will take unbeleivably less damage from missiles even precision missiles. you need to go back to the good old days of straifing runs to avoid the missiles. I have tested this and you would be suprized how effective it is my MANTICORE with precision cruise. they have the signature radius of rockets and a nutz fast explosion radius because the manticore has a hidden bonus to these stats and to an interceptor doing proper straifing runs i could not do more then 20 damage a hit. (my missiles skills are very good so dont say its because my missiles skills are no good over 7M in missiles).

I hate to give away that little tidbit of information, but people need to remember that to fly a small ship it requires mroe then just orbit/lock/fire. you actully have to manualy fly, you have to do the same against drones as well.

Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
the undivided
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.03.27 10:55:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Alliaanna Dalaii on 27/03/2006 10:56:11
Originally by: Death Princess3
Personally i think they should just take out caldari because if they give a missle disruptor then caldari will be the baddest race. At the moment besides the vampdomi caldari are the best race in most aspects. So that all the turret users will stop cryin why dont they just delete caldari?


because fanboi caldari players take up the majority of eve players Rolling Eyes And they whine the loudest YARRRR!!

Alliaanna

Nahia Senne
Initium Malum
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:16:00 - [18]
 

so to sum it up, caldari ships ARE best WCS platforms AND best/easiest damage platform AND best EW platform AND easiest to train.

worst part is, caldari ships are all of this at the same time. in short, an IWIN button. only way to counter them is to use another IWIN button aka nos/ewar domi.

and dont talk to me about "range" issues raven has. in 1v1, you cant scramble someone at range Wink

ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Pulsar Nebulah
Army of Lovers.
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Missiles have no counter.
*EW can be countered with FoF



1) There is not tech2 FOF missiles.
2) If you are dampened FOF will not work.
3) Put some small drones at jammed target. FOF missiles will go after drones not you.
4) Go away, missiles are fine.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:21:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
Another valid argument is that turrets are all countered by midslot items, but to counter missiles you need to sacrifice a high.



You don't need a highslot, you need a launcher point. Countless ships have no launcher points which means countless ships have zero defense against missiles.

Not like defenders are worth it anyway but if they were effective, it would still be broke.

Soyemia
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:32:00 - [21]
 

Missiles just are über, you cant counter them ANY way! If you do much transveral, turrets wont hit at all, missiles still with pretty good dmg.

Turrets doesnt hit always full dmg, missiles do. So basicly missiles>turrets=caldar>other races. So you caldari lovers, go think about your selfs how über YOU are. Missiles are not fine.

Thor Belfry
Caldari
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:44:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Thor Belfry on 27/03/2006 11:45:19
From a distance of 30-150km

10 tempests can 1 volley you in about 5 seconds(locktime? :P)
10 ravens can't 1 volley you cause you'll just warp the **** out if you see 60 missiles heading your way.

There are limits to what missiles can do remember that.

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:46:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: 4 LOM

Learn how not to orbit and you will take unbeleivably less damage from missiles even precision missiles.


Missiles are unaffected by Transversal Velocity so orbiting = irrelevent.

Originally by: 4 LOM
I hate to give away that little tidbit of information, but people need to remember that to fly a small ship it requires mroe then just orbit/lock/fire. you actully have to manualy fly, you have to do the same against drones as well.




Tis better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.

Good job you're posting with an alt, I say!

LCIceo
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:46:00 - [24]
 

Looks like many people dont know much about missiles. :D

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.03.27 11:55:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Cmdr Patrick
Edited by: Cmdr Patrick on 27/03/2006 10:42:28
Originally by: FireFoxx80
* Missile users can still be jammed/EW

* FOFs do less damage than their normal counterparts, and target randomly (equal to tracking disruption?)

* Missiles are affected by movement, check out missile explosion velocity and missile velocity.

* Yes, defenders suck ass.


* Turrets can be jammed

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can.

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie)

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range

av ran out of whines here


this one got ma laughing pretty hard ...

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned -- release a bunch of light drones, fof's target only to your lock range, so dampners work

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg -- what ? 300+ cruise damage on a frigate ? please go check and use a calculator this time

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can. -- true for one

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime -- hahaha I wan't to see any ship and missile that does 700 damage per shot in a normal reasonable scenario

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie) -- missiles can't choose other attributes except damage type

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range -- I think they can very well or you have a very weird definition of this case. I did not see any turret penalty on stabs so far.

Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
the undivided
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.03.27 12:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Cmdr Patrick
Edited by: Cmdr Patrick on 27/03/2006 10:42:28

this one got ma laughing pretty hard ...

*fof's are still dmg while jammed or dampned -- release a bunch of light drones, fof's target only to your lock range, so dampners work

*turrets can't hit that frigate orbiting u at 500m for 300+ precision cruise dmg -- what ? 300+ cruise damage on a frigate ? please go check and use a calculator this time

*turrets can't hit that frigate going 2000transversal missles can. -- true for one

*turrets don't hit for like 700 per shot everytime -- hahaha I wan't to see any ship and missile that does 700 damage per shot in a normal reasonable scenario

*turrets can't choose damage type(bar minnie) -- missiles can't choose other attributes except damage type

*turrets can't fit lows with 5 stabs and hit for full damage and range -- I think they can very well or you have a very weird definition of this case. I did not see any turret penalty on stabs so far.


1: So fitting 5 stabs on my geddon wouldn't nerf my dmg or range ? ummm... right Rolling Eyes

2: Missiles dont need to change any other attribute, your effective range is 0 > Max range with skills.

3: A tech II fitted gunboat will NOT hit a frigate.... Ever Sad If it has any clue and isn't sat still. so while that guys assumption of 700dmg is a bit off its better than no dmg at all isn't it.


Alliaanna

LCIceo
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.27 12:04:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:05:41
Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:04:59
Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:04:00
Originally by: Soyemia
Missiles just are über, you cant counter them ANY way! If you do much transveral, turrets wont hit at all, missiles still with pretty good dmg.


Hehe... Ever heard of Sensor Dampners? How about Target jammers? Many people dont carry FoFs and Fofs wont work if you use sensro dampners. Why are you orbiting in the first place? You dont have to orbit to reduce missile dmg, just maintain high speed in any direction.

Originally by: Soyemia
Turrets doesnt hit always full dmg, missiles do. So basicly missiles>turrets=caldar>other races. So you caldari lovers, go think about your selfs how über YOU are. Missiles are not fine


Missiles dont always do full dmg. Resistance, Target speed compared to Explosion velocity and Target sig radius compared to Explosion radius affect missile damage done to the target.


Linkage

Soyemia
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.03.27 12:13:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Soyemia on 27/03/2006 12:14:07
Originally by: LCIceo
Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:05:41
Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:04:59
Edited by: LCIceo on 27/03/2006 12:04:00
Originally by: Soyemia
Missiles just are über, you cant counter them ANY way! If you do much transveral, turrets wont hit at all, missiles still with pretty good dmg.


Hehe... Ever heard of Sensor Dampners? How about Target jammers? Many people dont carry FoFs and Fofs wont work if you use sensro dampners. Why are you orbiting in the first place? You dont have to orbit to reduce missile dmg, just maintain high speed in any direction.

If you want ramein high speed you must orbit with close range ship. If long rage, you must d osideway, and it makes you to have tranveral.

Originally by: Soyemia
Turrets doesnt hit always full dmg, missiles do. So basicly missiles>turrets=caldar>other races. So you caldari lovers, go think about your selfs how über YOU are. Missiles are not fine


Missiles dont always do full dmg. Resistance, Target speed compared to Explosion velocity and Target sig radius compared to Explosion radius affect missile damage done to the target.

So, turrets dmg is too affected by resistances. Sensor damps affect too to turrets. Many peapole ar using FoF missiles. And still one inba thing, you dont need to worry about range!

Case Micoud
Posted - 2006.03.27 12:34:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 12:36:10
Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 12:35:48
Originally by: LCIceo
Hehe... Ever heard of Sensor Dampners? How about Target jammers? Many people dont carry FoFs and Fofs wont work if you use sensro dampners. Why are you orbiting in the first place? You dont have to orbit to reduce missile dmg, just maintain high speed in any direction.


Sensor dampers and target jammers work against turrets too. but you have an additional ew module type - tracking disruptors.

So what would be your choice of direction for maintaining high speed?

I have to be able to web an scrabmle my target and most of all I would like to be within optimal, so I hit my target with every shot.If I was for example flying from one side of the target from optimal range to the other side's optimal range, I would have 6 km (minmatar medium autocannons) space to accelerate, slow down turn and go back accelerating. What speed could one achieve in so low space?

Case Micoud
Posted - 2006.03.27 12:46:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Case Micoud on 27/03/2006 12:46:51
Originally by: LCIceo


Missiles dont always do full dmg. Resistance, Target speed compared to Explosion velocity and Target sig radius compared to Explosion radius affect missile damage done to the target.


Resistance is in your favor as you can change the damage type, minmatars can too, but not so specifically.

But my point and the point of the topic is although missiles dmg is affected by target speed it is not as affected as with turrets and you can augment this effect with a tracking disruptor. You can't do that to missiles. I'm not whinening but I would like to why is it so and where is this balanced if it is.


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