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Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.24 00:03:00 - [31]

*A Long Sigh*

So, another example of meaningless cultural stereotypes thrown around as 'facts'. Obviously the Amarr can not understand that a person who is of a certain race is not destined to be a fanatical loyalist of that race or the political organisation therof.
You throw criticisms of the Federation at me as if the individual and the state are one and the same. I will avoid boring you with my history, but let us say I am hardly the Federations greatest supporter. Not that you could understand such a system that gives such freedom that a person can be both part of a state yet not in total agreement with it.

I posed a simple hypothesis that perhaps it was hypocritical, and not a little bit pathetic, to smugly comment (except the actual 'comment' was minimal, relying simply on presenting us a news article that we have all read) on the state of the Republic economy when it is quite obvious that yours cannot be particularly stable. Based as it is on the coercion of people who do not directly benefit from it.

Originally by: Jerek Laz

And it would seem that you "need" the minmatar... more than they perhaps need you.

Quite the suspension of logic Mr Laz? A large influx of immigration is usually the sign that a people can find an advantageous situation within another state (or shall we say 'need us). While I may have missed it, I do not see a wave of Matari moving to the Empire in these troubled times looking to be 'Enlightened'. The Matari benefit from integration within the Federation and the Federation benefit from the Matari skills. You can level any criticism you like at the Gallente, but you might have held onto a much greater proportion of your 'property' if you had taken a similair stance.

Originally by: Jerek Laz

However, as seen by your own societies recent purchase of a Caldari corporation, it would seem you feel the "need" to hoist your own failing economy onto them.

Thatw as the reason you had no desire to grant them independance; your own market economy faltered without them.

Once again, it is a wonder your Empire survives if all your people have as much economic acumen as yourself. The purchase of a Caldari company by a Federation one is indicative of a strong Federation economy rather than a 'failing' one. You seem to be a bit confused.

Jerek Laz
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.24 01:21:00 - [32]

Indeed, the former "post" was addressed more towards Mr DeToqueville.

However, as you have responded so ably, I will return my sadly distracted attentions to you, sir.

First off, you say i stereotype and yet you do likewise. If we are both to fall down this route, let us do so with grace. And preferably, without hypocrisy:

Obviously the Amarr can not understand that a person who is of a certain race is not destined to be a fanatical loyalist of that race or the political organisation therof

So, on to the comment of a stable economy. I believe your comments elsewhere were about "self sufficiency" and "stability". trade is the sign of a stable economy, as you yourself have pointed out. It is NOT the sign of an economy that is on the brink of collapse.

However, I go off point. May I remind you that it was not I whom pointed the article out?

Anyway, I struggle to see the cohesiveness of your argument.

On the one hand you state that the Amarr empire is stagnating due to our trade with Caldari, yet you own economy is booming due to the purchasing of a Caldari company?

Also, our Economy falters and our industrial complex thrives, yet you still say it is faltering and crumbling. Sir, I must object: you live in a fantasy world.

If you wish to find a failing economy, look to the Matari. The Ushra'Khan, a foe whom I will fight to the death, yet whom I still have the highest respect for, have abandonned it. And its own citizens flock to your state.

Now, my point. You Federation seems perfectly happy to take advantage of these individuals for pure economic and militaristic gain, an accusation you yourself have levelled at my own Empire.

You promise wages, we promise peace. You promise a chance to fight a third party foe (the Caldari) and "the evil oppressors" (My own race). Who is spreading the propoganda now?

Yet you also resent this influx of people to your state (I use the word "you" as a reference to your ruling body, not as a personal jibe)

So, yes, they do not need you because you will use them as a resource with no future beyond that which you bestow.

We offer a chance at atonement and safety within our borders.

You pretend to offer freedom. They will never be accepted as much save a below-grade Intaki wannabe. How long before you "bring the republic under your wing"?

Your Federation, sir, is a hypocrisy.

And this aquisition of a Caldari company is perhaps the opening hand in a prolonged game. There are many precedents of a faltering company buying a controlling share in its rival to boost its own flagging stock. It is "good economics" but only for the buyer.

I claim no degree in business nor a doctorate in corporate spin, but one can see common sense when laid bare. Things in business are rarely as cut and dried as you would seem to think.

And please, if you wish to engage in a serious debate, as you say, without the hypocrisy and sterotyping, leave out the patronising commentary. It does nothing to elevate ones argument above that of a slave childs whimperings.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.24 01:58:00 - [33]

mr Laz

It is pleasing to meet an Amarrian of intelligence. While I will admit to being a little riled by your 'It appears he feels himself an intellect. How quaint.' comment, your most recent post sets you apart from others of your race with a tendency to spout dogma and shout 'Amarr Victor' to no-one. My apologies if I was a little hasty, I usually do not rehash someone elses words and then comment on them, but I have a temper like anyone.

Your points are all well put. As I previously said, I have no great love for the Federation, and continue to refute the use of the word 'you' when referring to it. I am an independant, born on Intaki V and closer to the Intaki than the Gallente in mindset, this explains my history within Placid Reborn and many of the views I hold. You are correct in stating that the Federation is a hypocrisy and the Intaki are the most important case study you could find to prove such a point. However, to me it is the most horrid system imaginable until you consider the alternatives.

To address your points, I never stated categorically that your Empire was stagnating because of trade with the Caldari, but was probing the mentality that on the one hand professes self sufficency and on the other encourages trade. I see this to be a paradox, but I think that we have already addressed this issue and I accept your views on the subject.

In responses to the Matari influx, we need not be prescriptive about how a race should act, while you may believe that the Minmatar's true home is the Empire, if their choice is to move to the Federation then this cannot be termed exploitation as it is entered into willingly. While the Federation benefits directly from this, it does nothing to coerce or encourage this influx and thus cannot be held responsible.

With the purchase of a Caldari company by a Gallente one, it is unlikely that either of us can know the true justification or background of the deal. It is of course possible that it is the action of a dying economy attempting to revive itself but it seems more likely to be the flexing of commercial muscle though of course we will only find out which it is in time. Whatever the surrounding issue, it must come as a blow to the Caldari state who think themselves so economically strong to find themselves owned by their hated former adversaries.

I myself remain neutral (a point which I keep attempting to stress but is seemingly ignored as I am thrust into the position of the devils advocate). I fly Caldari vessels because they are, to my eyes, technologically superior, yet I prefer the society of the Federation for the lack of constraints placed upon me and the freedom I am afforded. I

I will agree to withold any further cultural stereotyping of the Amarr, but I would request you to do the same. The Gallente have heard all the 'corrupt, drug addled, liberal' jibes as much as you have heard the 'evil, authoritarian slaver' ones. It would seem likely that within races made of trillions of people, neither generalisation would be accurate.

Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Posted - 2006.03.24 05:29:00 - [34]

All progress is marked by periods of upheval. The Republic has enjoyed extraordinary growth in recent years but it has been unable to cater to the needs of the thousands of Matari that are freed from slavery every week. In that regard we have become vitims of our own successes and personally I would not want to see it any other way.

While many Matari loyal to the Republic understand the need for privations with our economy streached so thin there are those that find a better life for themselves in the Federation. This is quite understandable and they are free to pursue those opportunities.

Of course the negative effects on both the Federation and the Republic cannot be denied and there are no easy solutions. Many of our agricultural planets are still suffering from the aftermath of Amarrian bombardment. I suspect the only option for the Republic is to expand it's territory. Exactly how is down to Parliment and the Elders. Who knows, perhaps this issue may prompt an election.

Jax Altarin
Nefanter Transportation
Posted - 2006.03.24 09:49:00 - [35]

They could find a home among there brothers in the true home of the Matar, but far to many have let themselves be decieved by Gallente lies of the happiness of *****mongering and drug induced euphoria. I weep that they can not come to understand the diffrence between momentary pleasure and true happiness.

Posted - 2006.03.24 13:57:00 - [36]

I would ask why there is so much resentment that some people are able to seek a better life? We welcome all who come to the Federation equally, wether they be Ammar, Caldari or Minmatar. All people may live as they choose within our laws. The interesting thing is more people migrate to the Federation rather than any other entity, perhaps this suggests something? We are not all Drug users, nor are we all Pleasure hub addicts. Within our society are many extremes of all natures, however the propoganda machine's of various nations choose to only focus on one. Only time will tell how the intergration of our newest members will affect the region.

To those who accuse the Federation of exploitation i say this, if we are exploiting these people as badly as you suggest, why then do they still come to our space?

My hope is the money they return to the Republic may strengthen it and help its infrastructure to grow and become anouther strong trading partner as well as an already priven Ally to the Federation.

Glamour Syndicate
Posted - 2006.03.24 15:05:00 - [37]

Originally by: Elrianmk2
We are not all Drug users, nor are we all Pleasure hub addicts. Within our society are many extremes of all natures, however the propoganda machine's of various nations choose to only focus on one.
It's an easy "I run out of actual arguments" fallback. Wink

Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.24 16:14:00 - [38]

While many Matari loyal to the Republic understand the need for privations with our economy streached so thin there are those that find a better life for themselves in the Federation.

The exodus might not be your main problem. This quote has rather disturbing implications-

With the Parliament and tribal leaders preoccupied over the growing inter-tribal violence afflicting the core systems of the Republic, the stream of Matari citizens crossing into the Federation is continuing unabated.

The Matari tribes are already beggining to fight one another.

Jon Engel
Intaki Security and Intelligence
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2006.03.24 18:21:00 - [39]

As for Jacq being an Intaki wannabe I find that childish. He's more Gallente than anyone of my aquantances and friends. He dosnt speak Intaki all that well, and drinks quafe like a good ole frogCool And if youd seen is wardrobe of transluccent clothes and plateglass visors, youd hardly call him an Intaki poseur.

The point of this totally derailed discussion is that no political entity can exist without interaction with that of another. The Amarr produce mass amounts of food. The profit margins of exporting this food is the reason they buy slaves to cultivate entire continents on agrarian worlds. without this export the Amarrs, Ni Kunnis, Khanids, and womever else calls that **** hole home would have no jobs, income in the agriculture bussiness.

Consider this. Amarrian Wheat is sold within the Empire and its puppet nations for a relatively low cost. Outside of this space it sells for much more. You take away the agrarian commerce between the Empire and the rest of the Cluster and it would collapse into small producers selling Cereals, Fruits, Vegetables and Livestock in local markets and nothing more than exportation to stations and frontier worlds under Amarr rule.

The CEOs and bussinessmen of the Amarrs need foreign money to turn profits. Without it they would be in financial ruin.

As for the Relationship with the Caldari. Since the Caldari/Federation War. The two governments have nver liked eachother. The Amarr want to invade and enslave everyone. Thus it makes sense for the Caldari to work with the Amarr when the Gallente in turn help the Minmitar Republic whose a blood enemy of the Amarr.

The Caldari think that it will help them in the end. However I see flaws in helping the Amarr in intelligence and possibly in the near future a full blown Clustur war.

When the Amarr get what they want (the Minmitars) They will want more. They will first come against the Federation, provided our megathrons can't stop the Golden fleet. They will eventually turn on the Caldari and "reclaim" them.

Remember this there twisted faith dictates that they must conquer everyone. Its best to set aside our differences and remove the Empire from the history books and liberate there brainwashed populace from fanaticism.

As to the original purpous of this discussion. Look for Racial tensions between Gallenteans and Minmitars in the near future. Gallenteans don't cotton to people living there life without abiding by there cultural and ethnic standards. Minmitar culture is too proud to be swept away by Gallentean assimilation. This will indeed cause clashes, perhaps violence.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.24 19:00:00 - [40]

You dog! I have only one translucent outfit and it was bought for a party on Renyn IV and I only wore it once, and it was a very tasteful blue and pink marble effect.

Alexander Trevalyn
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.03.27 04:05:00 - [41]

Edited by: Alexander Trevalyn on 27/03/2006 04:06:52
I find this quote, if true, very interesting...

The Federation Navy is approaching a net majority of Minmatar pilots in it's ranks.

For a star-nation whose foreign policy has been influenced by it's military in the past, is this the wisest course of action?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.03.27 05:10:00 - [42]

Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
Originally by: Karl Mattar
I wonder how long it will be before the Gallente realize what a drain these refugees are on their resources.

And then I wonder what they will do about it.

They will take a page from the Caldari playbook and hide the bodies, of course.

Then the Matari will take a page from the Gallente handbook, and orbital bomb a planet?Wink

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.27 05:50:00 - [43]

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

Then the Matari will take a page from the Gallente handbook, and orbital bomb a planet?

Whatever floats your boat.

Posted - 2006.03.27 06:30:00 - [44]

Since when does the work not come to mineral rich regions with cheap labor available, especially when the government drives a strict laissez-faire policy?

And obviously the scientists of the republic found a way to change Vitoc from being a deadly viral toxin that painfully kills within 48h when the antidote isn't administered in time to a mere addictive substance that permanently causes distress. Oh, or the info about the Amarr using it to keep their laborers and ship crews in line without loosing efficiency wasn't entirely true and Mabnen was an illusion.

Unuthiel, I think your sources aren't trustworthy at all.

Lightof God
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.27 14:33:00 - [45]

Take note few Caldari have actually weighed in on this discussion.
The Ammar empire is highly self sufficent the ability to trade in it is highly goverment regulated. The reasons for trade between our stare and your empire are thus. We have a need for food. They have a surplus. Our computational systems are far superior to anything produced in any empire but the Jove. The addition of Caldari technology and computer prowess greatly speeds up Ammarian weapon research.

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