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Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:26:00 - [1]
 

News update-

Update

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:32:00 - [2]
 

The Republic is simply in a poor ecomomic state at the current time. Your empire is in no better position, you just have more persuasive means of informing your citizens, and the galaxy, of the opposite.

The Matari will be welcomed in the Federation as they always have been.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:39:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Jacq d'Luna
Your empire is in no better position, you just have more persuasive means of informing your citizens, and the galaxy, of the opposite.




<snort> Keep telling yourself that. We, alone of all the nations, are entirely self-sufficient.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:49:00 - [4]
 

You claim self sufficency yet your Empire requires the services of the Caldari?

I would snort but I find the sound impolite.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:52:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Unuthiel on 23/03/2006 17:54:32
We trade with them, how does that make us "require" their services? You are merely displaying your ignorance of well established facts. It has been stated many times in offical documents that the Amarr do not need trade as do the nations that trade with them, this gives them rather an advantage.

Jerek Laz
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.23 17:53:00 - [6]
 

The Caldari are business and trading partners, who appreciate those who do not stab them in the back.

And I'm sure you Federation would accept the Matari, so long as they continue flocking away from their failed excuse for a Republic and into your taxpaying throngs.

The Federation is hardly in a position to comment on success of Governmenntal policy, now, is it?

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:38:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Jacq d''Luna on 23/03/2006 18:41:37
Sorry, but you are displaying your ignorance of economics. While I accept your assertion that the Empire is self sufficent (and we do not need to discuss how it maintains that self sufficency), how does this make it advantageous to trade with the Caldari state. You even claim as such that 'The empire does not need trade'. If you produce everything you need, then how does an economic relationship with the Caldari, the biggest surplus producer of just about everything, benefit your empire.

Do not take me for a Federation loyalist, I am far from such, as my history would tell you. I do question, however, the benefit to either side of this alliance of yours, seemingly sharing no ideological ground and, with the self proclaimed 'self sufficency' of the Empire, representing little economic opportunity for the Caldari.

This leads me to believe there are ulterior motives for the relationship other than simple trade. Perhaps you can 'enlighten' me on this?

Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:41:00 - [8]
 

I wonder how long it will be before the Gallente realize what a drain these refugees are on their resources.

And then I wonder what they will do about it.

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:43:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Karl Mattar
I wonder how long it will be before the Gallente realize what a drain these refugees are on their resources.

And then I wonder what they will do about it.


They will take a page from the Caldari playbook and hide the bodies, of course.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:46:00 - [10]
 

To the Federation, there isn't really a 'drain' because the Matari are something the Gallente are not. Namely warriors.

The Federation Navy is approaching a net majority of Minmatar pilots in it's ranks. As you can guess, the Gallenteans are hardly famed fighters and prefer the more intellectual arts. The Matari influx represents an opportunity for the Federation and certainly a massive boost to it's military power. This arrangement works well for both parties as your average Federation Navy pilot makes many times the average wage a Matari equivalent can expect.

We shall see whether this immigration becomes a problem, but personally, I think currently it simply represents ammunition for the xenophobes and conservatives like Blaque and his kin.

It appears to me that the Republic is looking an increasingly likely canditate for integration within the Federation, but time will tell.

Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
Originally by: Karl Mattar
I wonder how long it will be before the Gallente realize what a drain these refugees are on their resources.

And then I wonder what they will do about it.


They will take a page from the Caldari playbook and hide the bodies, of course.


Ha, excellent point. We must work harder to keep our manuals secure. Smile

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 18:50:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
If you produce everything you need, then how does an economic relationship with the Caldari, the biggest surplus producer of just about everything, benefit your empire.

Well, for one thing, the Caldari are in fact an importer of food. Which the Amarr generate huge surpluses of. If the Caldari have in turn an improved type of missile warhead, would it be advantageous to trade fot it? Of course. Do the Amarr *need* to trade for it? No, they'd probably get by without it, if they had to.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:00:00 - [13]
 

Your initial argument is sound in that yes, I am aware the state's teeming billions require regular grain shipments and do not have the, let us say, 'coerced' manpower that you yourselves posses.

However, economically 'advantageous' is simply a semantic manipulation that literally translates as 'need'. You are pointing out that Amarrian weapon research and development is not all that it could be, thus, your arguments of self sufficency fall apart. If you require Caldari technology, then you are just as much a part of Galactic import and export as any of the other states. It would be arrogant to profess otherwise. Which I am sure you will, your people not being especially known for their hmility.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:05:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Unuthiel on 23/03/2006 19:07:54
Quote:
You are pointing out that Amarrian weapon research and development is not all that it could be, thus, your arguments of self sufficency fall apart.


No, I'm not. Sigh, I'll try to explain again. Not having some extra item that would be nice to have does not equate to not being self-sufficient. This is basic logic here.

Quote:
If you require Caldari technology, then you are just as much a part of Galactic import and export as any of the other states.


We do not *require* Caldari technology. Our military primarily uses armor and lasers, which we have no problems producing. Try to break away from your Gallente "we all need each other and should all get along singing around the fire" mentality.

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:09:00 - [15]
 

*Nods*

That being the case, your reasons for an Alliance are?

Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:21:00 - [16]
 

Maybe they sell us food for the excellent sound systems we make. They need them for their prayers in church. Or perhaps they like Caldari-built collision avoidance systems.

Does all trade have to be defense-related?

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:30:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Karl Mattar


Does all trade have to be defense-related?



Guns and butter, pallie. Guns and butter.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:53:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
That being the case, your reasons for an Alliance are?


Our own business. That being said, the Caldari dislike the Gallente, so that's a pretty good indication of good character right there.

Pulgor
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:54:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Unuthiel
News update-

Update


This toad again?

Don't you have anything better to do then harp on and on about the supposed virtues of the empire?

Jacq d'Luna
The Scope
Posted - 2006.03.23 19:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Karl Mattar
Maybe they sell us food for the excellent sound systems we make. They need them for their prayers in church. Or perhaps they like Caldari-built collision avoidance systems.

Does all trade have to be defense-related?



*Laughs*

Well, I was led to believe that the Empire was 'self-sufficent'. It wasn't me who stated that the Amarr require your military technology, it was Mr Unuthiel. If they require your sound systems or collision avoidance systems, it is another nail in the coffin for Amarrian 'self sufficency'.

I am repeating myself a little. My initial assertion was simply, if a state is totally self sufficent, why engage in galactic politics. It is likely that many Amarr view the rest of the world as heretics anyways so why bother allying with your particular group of heretics rather than mine. This is what doesn't follow, why hasn't the Empire simply turned in on itself. It has done the opposite. This is why this 'self sufficency' is an obvious facade. No-one has everything, and if they did, they wouldn't bother making alliances with the Caldari.

Shemar
Gallente
Photesthetics
Glamour Syndicate
Posted - 2006.03.23 20:28:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Unuthiel
We, alone of all the nations, are entirely self-sufficient.
Yeah, if you forget the little detail that your economy is based on non-Amarr slave labor. Rolling Eyes

Kular
Amarr
Dark Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
Posted - 2006.03.23 20:31:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Jacq d'Luna
My initial assertion was simply, if a state is totally self sufficent, why engage in galactic politics. It is likely that many Amarr view the rest of the world as heretics anyways so why bother allying with your particular group of heretics rather than mine. This is what doesn't follow, why hasn't the Empire simply turned in on itself. It has done the opposite. This is why this 'self sufficency' is an obvious facade. No-one has everything, and if they did, they wouldn't bother making alliances with the Caldari.


I suggest you read up on why there is an Empire in the first place. As for "needing" the Caldari, no we don't need their trade, but why refuse something that benifits you? Being Gallente I won't ask you to try and understand that logic.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.23 20:38:00 - [23]
 

The slaves are a part of the Amarr Empire.

Amarr does not need anything from the outside, it is, however, our current doctrine to spread the faith to those who are not of it through a peaceful manner, and while we do not need anything, it is entirely possible to get useful items in exchange for our own from the Caldari, while building a better relationship. Which is an entirely Amarrian thing to do, and has been for the last hundred years, in case you hadnt noticed.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.03.23 20:56:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
Don't you have anything better to do then harp on and on about the supposed virtues of the empire?


It is an Amarr duty to spread the truth.

Jerek Laz
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.23 22:00:00 - [25]
 

It appears he feels himself an intellect. How quaint.

"Need" defines "Inability to function without". Thus, whilst Caldari missile technology is indeed useful and fosters co-operation between us, if it were not there then Amarr would not dissolve into nothingness.

However, as seen by your own societies recent purchase of a Caldari corporation, it would seem you feel the "need" to hoist your own failing economy onto them.

Thatw as the reason you had no desire to grant them independance; your own market economy faltered without them.

And it would seem that you "need" the minmatar... more than they perhaps need you.

Anyway, before my contempt for your culture overwhelms me, I will add one final thing.

Where in self sufficiency does it state that one must not talk to ones neighbours? If a man farms and produces food for himself, why must he then shun all those around him? We seek to welcome all into our arms yet you sneer and decry us, whislt paying the Matari a pittance and exploiting them in the name of "freedom".

At least we state our intent...

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2006.03.23 22:33:00 - [26]
 

The Empire seriously needs to stop trading with the rest of civilized society for about a month or so, and then perhaps its zealots will recognize that which they repeatedly take for granted.

As for the press discussion, its unfortunate this violence has caused such an upheaval in the Republic that its corporations are having difficulties staying afloat. It's only compounding the larger issue and crippling an already weakened state. It's times like these that the trials of leadership are tested the most; I only hope there's a plan in motion.

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.23 22:49:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jerek Laz


However, as seen by your own societies recent purchase of a Caldari corporation, it would seem you feel the "need" to hoist your own failing economy onto them.



In a free market system, the government doesn't dictate who other corporations purchase. They're free to make their own decisions, and their decisions make no reflection upon the government.


I know this is an alien concept, considering you live in an autocracy, but even the Caldari acknowledge it. Perhaps you're the backwards one in this discussion?

Jerek Laz
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.23 23:18:00 - [28]
 

Your assumption being that an autocracy is a backward system. It has lasted us for long enough, whereas your democracy has plunged you into your fair share of intellectual dark ages.

And it would be naive to state that corporations and government have no ties, especially with the sort of political manoeuvering the Federation is "famed" for.

How many of your politicians do you think have a controlling stake in this company? How many sit on its board?

Please... free market economy? Keep telling yourself the lie so you can sleep better. A market responds to political influence as well as market demand. There have been countless market transactions, yet this one is deemed as newsworthy.

You preach freedom of values, yet refuse to unblinker your mind, it seems...

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.23 23:27:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 23/03/2006 23:28:58
Originally by: Jerek Laz

And it would be naive to state that corporations and government have no ties, especially with the sort of political manoeuvering the Federation is "famed" for.



Your homework for the day is to distinguish between lobbying and coercion. Until then, please stop posting.

Quote:

How many of your politicians do you think have a controlling stake in this company? How many sit on its board?



None. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise, which you wouldn't. You think simply asserting something makes it true. The empirical realm of facts is not like religion.

Quote:

Please... free market economy? Keep telling yourself the lie so you can sleep better. A market responds to political influence as well as market demand. There have been countless market transactions, yet this one is deemed as newsworthy.



The Gallente Federation has no control over what AURORA reports. Try again.

Jerek Laz
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.23 23:47:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Jerek Laz on 23/03/2006 23:47:45
Ahh, so we see the Gallente smooth tongue has its razor edge.

May I ask, oh mighty one, why the burden of proof is on me to prove you wrong? Just because you "say it ain't so" doesn't mean it is not. Which is, in fact, you asserting rigourous truth. I do not see your evidence to the contrary.

You accuse me of submitting opinion as base fact, yet you fling exactly the same trite you accuse me of and call it an argument? Just because you have full control of the quote feature?

Also:

Quote:
homework for the day is to distinguish between lobbying and coercion. Until then, please stop posting.


So, as an arbitrator free speech, you're telling me to "shut my mouth"? Dear me, where has your etiquette gone. But mud slinging is uncouth. As far as I see, both are two sides of the same coin, the difference is only in how a "liberal" society chooses to interpet them.

Coercion: to compel; restrain by force; govern by force.

Lobby: a group of people who campaign to persuade legislators to make regulations favouring their particular interests.

Now, while the two words have different definitions, they are NOT mutually exclusive. You can lobby through coercive means.

And I suspect that this is what may have happened behind the scenes. After all, the ramifications of this deal are hardly trivial.

As you would say:

RSVP


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