open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Deployable items feedback
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]

Author Topic

Sushanta Mog
Minmatar
RONA Deepspace
Posted - 2003.10.08 10:14:00 - [91]
 

Mobile refineries donŽt have to cost more than 10M if they are destroyable.

Currently I haule bistot/chrockite and other ore over 20Js' and will keep on doing just that if the mobile refs % will be ANY lower than the stations'.

The bottom line is, that there is a limited amount of rare ore in a system and we(my corp) just mine it all, and haule it all, period.

The Mobile ref. has to work just as good as the ones in the station.

It has been said under this topic before and IŽll say it again:

The only resonable limitation on mobile refineries is skills required, price, size and throughput.

The refinery should work exactly like the ones in the stations i.e. the mineral yield should be according to the operators skills.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2003.10.10 03:32:00 - [92]
 

Quote:
Mobile refineries donŽt have to cost more than 10M if they are destroyable.

Currently I haule bistot/chrockite and other ore over 20Js' and will keep on doing just that if the mobile refs % will be ANY lower than the stations'.

The bottom line is, that there is a limited amount of rare ore in a system and we(my corp) just mine it all, and haule it all, period.

The Mobile ref. has to work just as good as the ones in the station.

It has been said under this topic before and IŽll say it again:

The only resonable limitation on mobile refineries is skills required, price, size and throughput.

The refinery should work exactly like the ones in the stations i.e. the mineral yield should be according to the operators skills.



like i said the idea's i have should work well but not exactly those numbers LOL...

I would even go and say that a time stamp wouldnt be too bad for modile refineries why? simple they are not a FREAKEN station Razz BUT they should do the JOB meaning refine the SAME... just TAKE LONGER thats ALL... what does that mean? well it is some what like going and hauling... SO they will be still balanced btween hauling and waiting for the ore to refine...

why is this so?

because like i said some places it might be worth it to just HAUL the stuff then have a modile refinery... OR like i said have % less and faster speed!! have modiles that do that...

one type will give you BEST % but slower... other will give you FASTEST but lower % its like anything else in life... btw you should have a middle as well Cool

making them exactly like station is stupid... but making them not even close to station's is also stupid so you need few lvl's like i said Razz

1FSTCAT
Amarr
Posted - 2003.10.11 04:24:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: 1FSTCAT on 11/10/2003 04:25:17
Think that mobile refineries will get better as tech levels increase also refuining skills should come into it but the should be at least a 1/3 as efficent than Station ones ( how big are the ones in a station compared to these babies)

It would be good if you could charge other miners to use them either in ore or Isk

ie when is anything mobile as good as a huge stationary item

ie generators / drills / homes /computers

Nafres Maelstrom
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.10.12 16:28:00 - [94]
 

a mobile refinery should be realistic,ie its not really the effisciency thats dramatically effected ,but the volume.ATm u cant destroy stations,u can refineries when there ingame,so no one with one braincell workin is gonna put it at risk for a less effiscient refine.

id say make entry version refinery have a timer like research and manu that slowly refines ore,make the time skill/attrib dependant,so that well skilled folks can at least boost volume.

that way refineries dont have to be 1/2 a billion purchase,since there destroyable,defendable,and replaceable.

they will make mining somewhat less of hauling oriented,and more about area control and defense.

id say a small begginer mob ref should do at least 1 refine an hour,with level of refinery doing another refine per level,that makes it very easy to code,from a yield calculations standpiont.this wont flood the market,and yet allows offline refining,and base of operations for mining activities.

but the 8% yield is worthless,CCP,we wont even bother usin in at that.

my 2 isk

Popov
Viziam
Posted - 2003.10.12 22:55:00 - [95]
 

I agree with Nafres - 8% is worthless but 8% per skill level of mobile refinery seems fair especially if RE is also used.

I most certainly would not use one if they stay how they are on Chaos atm.

TheLunatic
Gallente
Posted - 2003.10.13 04:49:00 - [96]
 

Quote:
if you were to mine an average bistot system out and refine it at 8% efficiency you'd probably still make less than hauling to a station 15 jumps away.

Isn't the whole point of this to allow corps to build up bases that eventually turn into stations out so they can claim there own territory and basically build somewhere to fight over (and also attract more people from empire space to 0.0 to fight as the game was intended methinks) if there extremely inefficient it just undermines that (note : not saying they should be 100% efficient, but 8% is just nuts .. 40-50% + skills is better)


Looking at it from a manpower perspective, and assuming some things which I'll go into details on in the morning... 8% is more than a bit low for 15 jumps out, in fact with the assumptions I made tonight, the efficiency level of the mobil refinery could not go lower than 17.15% and still expect to come out just barely ahead at 15 jumps out. That is being extremely generous in some of the numbers(and the abilities of the tugger in question) I threw around. The more reasonable number I came up with came out to about 21% at 15 jumps.

When I make the more detailed post in the morning(US Pacific Time), I'll have to see about making my own arbitrary stab at just how far out I think you'd have to go to break even at 8% efficiency. I just want to check the description of my method after some sleep before I post it, that and check some other facts with some corp-mates.

Balan Nadeer
Amarr
Murkon Prime Interstellar Productions
Posted - 2003.10.14 00:13:00 - [97]
 

I have read all the posts and here is my 2 cents. I think the efficiency should be close 90% of station yet it should be only able to do 1 batch at a time and should not take too long to do it. The mobile refinery would take up more space than the one in the station because it uses its own power source instead of the stations power core. This is also the reason that it should take a little longer to refine, it is using a smaller power supply thus longer to heat the ore. I think the price should be about as expensive as a BS. They should be able to be destroyed or taken over. This will encourage corps to stay at the station and protect it. The only reason to own one is to move toward player owned stations. One mobile refinery a few giant containers some sentry guns and u have every thing u need to stay put for a long time. I see no reason why ship docked at the refinery cant extend its shields to help protect refinery. Also to make people really use it like a station we need a mobile refit so you can change out modules.Very Happy

Faramir.
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.10.16 23:32:00 - [98]
 

I was just on chaos and i noticed the unanchored(caldari) mobile refinery shows no icon in space (like cargo containers, stations, sentries etc...)

I had dropped the station quite a bit away from the fightclub station and i was lucky to find it again...

Shouldn't there be an "icon" for the mobile refinery even if it's unanchored?

Edward Preble
BioLith Industries
Posted - 2003.10.18 19:39:00 - [99]
 

Alot of people keep refining they see no reason that mobile refineries shouldn't be the same as giant stations that took billions of dollars--as far as I can tell, it's just because they want a higher yield. Why not let them have double the output, wouldn't that make you happier too?

Everything needs to be a cost-benefit analysis, serving different purposes, just like the aforementioned example someone mentioned of trading speed for cargo space in an indy. For refining, you're trading efficiency and set-up cost for convenience and ownership. (no more station taking their cut--whoo hoo!) This will allow people to mine in DEEP space, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't come with some cost. (after all, who's going to find it 30 jumps into the FIX, especially at a midspace bookmark?)

Everyone agrees 8% is ridiculously low; perhaps it should start at 50% and climb with skill to somewhere around 75-90% of a station yield.

Why shouldn't the yield be the same? For the same reason they shouldn't have Arkanor in Empire space: balanced it's not.

TheLunatic
Gallente
Posted - 2003.10.18 23:49:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: TheLunatic on 18/10/2003 23:52:53
Quote:
Looking at it from a manpower perspective, and assuming some things which I'll go into details on in the morning... 8% is more than a bit low for 15 jumps out, in fact with the assumptions I made tonight, the efficiency level of the mobil refinery could not go lower than 17.15% and still expect to come out just barely ahead at 15 jumps out. That is being extremely generous in some of the numbers(and the abilities of the tugger in question) I threw around. The more reasonable number I came up with came out to about 21% at 15 jumps.

When I make the more detailed post in the morning(US Pacific Time), I'll have to see about making my own arbitrary stab at just how far out I think you'd have to go to break even at 8% efficiency. I just want to check the description of my method after some sleep before I post it, that and check some other facts with some corp-mates.


Well, it took me a lot longer than one day to get around to posting the numbers here. Here's a copy/pasted and slightly edited version of what some fellow corp members helped me come up with:

For my little hypothetical scenario I created a mining group of three Apocalypses fully loaded out with Miner lasers for the initial setting.

Bistot and Arkonor do not have the largest cargo requirements for a refine. Spodumain and Crokite have that honor, so I'm using those two ores instead(seeing as they employ the same amount of cargo space used per unit mined, and are also somewhat Deep-Space mining intensive).

I also arbitrarily decided each tug employed averaged out in these two fields:

90 seconds/one way jump, with at station time included. Which is probably faster than most tugs could ever hope to go.

Cargo Capacity of 4,000 units which is the amount of space 250 units(1 refine) of crokite/spodumain would occupy.

Now to the do the initial math for the Apocalypse Battleships. These numbers are for spodumain/crokite/bistot/arkonor:

Miner I formula for yield per laser:
40 cargo*1.5 skill=60 cargo/16 ore volume=3.75 units of ore (1.5 skill multiplier = Mining 5/Astrogeology 5)
40 cargo *1.2 skill multiplier=48 cargo/16 ore volume=3 units of ore (1.2 skill multiplier = Mining 4)

The game seems to round down to the nearest whole number, giving us a max yield of 3 units of crok/spod/bistot/arkonor per cycle. So for the entire battleship the total yield comes down to this:
3 units of ore*16 ore volume*8 lasers=384 units of cargo per minute per ship

Miner 2 formula for yield per laser:
60*1.5=90/16=5.625
60*1.35=81/16=5.0625 (1.35 skill multiplier, Mining 4 and Atrogeology 2, or Mining 5, and Astrogeology 1)
5*16*8=640 units of cargo per minute per ship

Miner 5 formula for yield per laser:
202.5*1.5=303.75/16=18.984375
202.5*1.45=293.625/16=18.3515625
18*16*8=2304 units cargo per minute per ship

It takes 625 seconds for a single Apocalypse with above mentioned miner 1 laser and skills to mine a full refine load. So with these numbers, 1 tug with 4,000 capacity could keep up with 3 fully loaded Apocalypse Battleships mining at 1 jump out if he averaged 104 seconds/jump each way with station time included. (I wish him luck in that pursuit)

Two 4K capacity would have to average just a little over 69 seconds/jump at two jumps out(3 needing 104seconds/jump)

Three 4K tugs would need to average 78 seconds/jump at 4 jumps out(4 needing 104 seconds/jump)

Thirteen 4K tugs would need to average 90 seconds/jump at 15 jumps(14 needing 97 seconds/jump; 15 needing 104)

Fourteen 4K tugs would need to average 85 seconds/jump at 17 jumps(15 needing just shy of 92 seconds/jump).

So as far as percentage hauled per tug is concerned, the 4K tug operator reaches his break even point in this scenario at around 17 jumps out with a mobil refinery. 1/14th = 7.14% while 1/15th = 6.67%

Now do not confuse this with where the miners themselves would start to break even.

As that will require that fourtyeight 4K tugs average just over 89 seconds/jump at 56 jumps out to keep up. Fourtynine 4K tugs would need to average just over 91 seconds/jump to keep up. 48 tugs + 3 Battleships = 51. 1/51st= 1.96% 1.96x(1 tug+ 3 battleships)= 7.84%

Meaning the mining group would start to hit the break even point in amount of minerals mined per person at 56 jumps out with Miner 1 lasers.

Miner 2's would hit the tug captains haulage point at around 10 jumps with 15 tugs needing almost 94 seconds/jump to keep up. 14 tugs needing just over 87 seconds/jump. (*times per refine load are footnooted at the bottom for miner 2 and miner 5)

The miners/haulers break even at 34 jumps with fourtyeight 4K tug ships needing to average just over 88 seconds/jump to keep up. Fourtynine 4K tugs needing just barely over 90 seconds/jump.

*continued, next post... I seem to have hit max post size for this browser and/or forum*

TheLunatic
Gallente
Posted - 2003.10.19 00:03:00 - [101]
 

Miner 5's would hit the tug captains haulage point at around three jumps with 15 of the 4K tugs needing to average almost 87 seconds/jump while 16 would need to average almost 93 seconds/jump to keep up. (at two jumps 15 of the 4K tugs would need to average just over 130 seconds/jump)

The Miners/haulers break even at 10 jumps with fourtyeight 4K tugs needing to average just over 83 seconds/jump(52 tugs would need to average just over 90 seconds/jump at 10 jumps out; at nine jumps fourtyeight 4K tugs would need to average almost 93 seconds/jump).

*footnote infomation:

It should be noted that the miner 2's would be creating a refine every 6 minutes 15 seconds. Meaning the 4K tug captain would have to be making a round trip to the refinery every 2 minutes 5 seconds to keep up with the three battleships, something I don't think he would be able to manage. Now someone with a significantly larger hold, possibly. But then I was working with the average tug captain having that kind of capacity/speed for that reason, as I'd assume a tugger capable of keeping up while doing it solo would be doing the work in the "compressed" op... Which throws off the percentage on how much he would have actually hauled. Because that guy may very well have been doing twice the average, causing the distance to move out further still so as to require more tug pilots to make that particular captains total percentage hauled move down below 8%... But I'm rambling.

The Miner 5 guys would be creating a refine at the average rate of one every 104 seconds, meaning the 4K tug captain would have to be making a round-trip every 34.7 seconds, even giving the tug captain a 12K hold, I think he would be barely able to keep up alone. .. And the more bodies added, the further out you would have to go.

Also missing is the calculations involved for the guys who would be running defense during the mining op. Which is going to move things out further still... At least if you restrict the number of people mining to the 3 Apocalypses.

Anyhow, I'm sure that if someone wanted to actually to time out average travel time per jump for a given tug(and its loadout), as well as otherwise tweak the numbers a bit. I think I've just provided someone with the groundwork to mathmatically determine the optimum size of their mining op in a perfect Eve-world. I wish them luck in that pursuit, and wouldn't mind getting that information on actual average travel time at all, both intra-system and inter-system. Wink

Uxinn
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.10.22 11:40:00 - [102]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Why leadership? Anchoring has nothing to do with leadership at all!


Yes it does you silly goose! Imagine you're towing this big huge deployable thing. Someone has to make a COMMAND decision(leadership) and say when and where this huge expensive thing gets deployed. You're controlling corporation assets, as a leader.



Then you need leadership to park your car, leadership skill is a skill that should be connected to gang-related things.. like gang-warp .. maybe gang fire .. or gang bang! .. but not deploying a refinery com on that's nonsens you goose :)

Deploying a refinery should require anchoring skill + industry + refining or advanced anchoring

cheers,
Papa Goose

McWatt
Caldari
Posted - 2003.10.31 16:58:00 - [103]
 

why is nobody posting here?

this is frigthening me!

we re talking about the stuff that shall safe the game!

please post!

Bigfoot Hunter
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.11.03 13:56:00 - [104]
 

8% is a joke for mobile refinaries Evil or Very Mad .
they should be almost as good as the ones in stations i think, just make em dam expensive so people wont be throwing em everywhere and if u want to keep em out of empire, limit em to 0.0 space say they create radiation that empires wont tolerate or something. I don't think they should be that much worse than station ones because if u are mining in the middle of no where u still have to haul all the valuable minerals back to civilized space to sell them and u might get jumped by pc pirates. If they make the things work well to incourage people to use them it would give player pirates something to do like track down the mineral haulers or their refineries / supply depots instead of camping and killing anything that moves.

NOTE: i am not a pirate but it seems like they dont have alot to do and ccp seems to not care to much about them some times thats why i brought em up.

Mechkilla
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2003.11.04 12:35:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Mechkilla on 04/11/2003 12:40:37
In my opinion I don't believe it is good to make those mobile refineries as good as the one in stations. Mining the rare ores to get the high valuable minerals would become to easy. Less haulers would be needed to bring the ores to a point where you could refine them. So the corps would have more peoples to mine (instead of hauling) and that will cause that more and more belts would get mined dry ... faster and faster. Of course the prices for megacyte and zydrine would falling to a normal level. But think about that. More people or corporations would get richer and richer ... too rich imo and could buy everything they want (like titans and these should be very very rare in this game). On the other side the prices for ships could get lower, making it to easy for new people to own a cruiser or a battleship. Makes this game less interesting.
But 8% is really too less and I agree to the fears of some people here that throwing away a big amount of those rare ores aren't good for the shortage of megacyte and zydrine.

Here is one of my ideas for mobile refineries:

Let them refine about 30-40% of the ore plus a bonus with a special skill (+5% mobile refinery efficiency or something like that but not better than 50-60% overall). The wasted ore could be thrown out to space and added to the normal growth amount of the nearest belt (or create a new one if it is far away to one). The wasted ore wouldn't been lost and you would get faster growing asteroids.

See you in the EVE universe.

Bigfoot Hunter
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.11.06 06:33:00 - [106]
 

hmm if the wasted ore gets thrown back into space where it can then be mined again arent they getting 100% efficency because nothing is really wasted it just needs to be mined again?

Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
Posted - 2003.11.06 11:33:00 - [107]
 

Please remove the "sticky" sign from this thread, as deployable items will not make it to the Castor-patch.

Mechkilla
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2003.11.06 11:50:00 - [108]
 

Yes and no. You have to wait some time until the wasted ores get back to a roid. Then you could mine it again and get e.g. only 60% refined in your mobile refinery.
Instead of only destroying the wasted ores it should add to the nearest belt and result in a faster growing rate (e.g. instead of waiting 4 weeks to mine it again you have to wait only 3 weeks).

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2003.11.10 22:17:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Drutort on 10/11/2003 22:23:16
here is an idea... if it takes power and space to refine well you can do 1 thing about hte power... you can make each refining or depending on the ore to refine and take up X amount of power... make the thing use like cap or something.. then you could use other ships to boost the cap of modile refinery Razz

think about it... its better then just a time sink.. this way it would take more people and skill and just more ships to do something and not more modile refineries...

you could refine a lot of ore at one time and be out of cap for refining and would have to wait for it to recharge... or have a skill that boostes the cap booster and maybe use some ot her form of modules to transfer the power etc...

we can do a lot better then just time sinks...

Shock
Caldari
Posted - 2003.11.13 10:33:00 - [110]
 

I think the refining skills should just be ignored for mobile refineries.

The effective 75% gain should be enough to make sure mobile refineries are only used in deep space situations.

Perhaps even add a skill 'Mobile Refinery' which adds 2% per level and requires Refinery lvl5 and is the only skill that increases the refining gain for mobile refineries.

But 8% is ridiculous.

NOBODY WILL EVER USE MOBILE REFINERIES IN THAT CASE!!!

As long as making the long run to a station remains more profitable these expensive pieces of junk that need to be defended as well are pretty useless.

And with 8% I think even a 100 jump route is more profitable especially since in that case you have in most cases someone with ref eff lvl5.

Taleth
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.11.17 23:27:00 - [111]
 

just my thought on this, make the refineries very expensive, but destroyable, this way no one will put one out without ample protection such as sentry turrets. also it would keep people from putting out a ton of them because someone could blow one up and they would lose alot of money. of course the refineries would have a really high structure and armor so it would take more than a few BS's to take one out. this also would bring combat to the asteroid belts and away from the gates and give people a reason to stay and fight instead of just warp away.

Retrax
Caldari
The Forge Association of Science and Industry
Posted - 2003.11.19 00:58:00 - [112]
 

Ahh, the perfect mining op. :)

Lunatic, You're correct, it's tough to keep up with multiple battleships mining... but your figures are low. I'm not sure Deployables will be useable by unskilled or newer players, unless they join a large corp, of course.

As for Anchoring levels, I'd think small/medium lvl 1, large/huge lvl 2, giant/sentry gun lvl 3, mobile refinery lvl 4, ??? lvl 5, give or take a level for anchoring those items. It's not a good thing to stretch these out as others have said - no use having everything lvl 5 like CCP seems to want - that's just another buzzkill.

8% is WASTING ORE DON"T DO IT!!!
Haul it 10 jumps to a freaking station. :)

Hemttaw
Amarr
Zor Industries
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.11.20 09:06:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Hemttaw on 20/11/2003 09:07:07
Excellent idea Retrax, even allows for larger (lvl 5 anchoring) things later on :)

Buddrow
State Protectorate
Posted - 2003.12.04 03:05:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Buddrow on 04/12/2003 03:27:06
i can't belive the devs are being so blatently stubborn on this. everyone yells 8% sucks ass. and they ignore us, WTF?!?!


i think mobils should be very spendy, and destroyable... they should be about as hard to destroy as lets say a...... scorp with a mwd on so like 1500 shields like 2k armor and 3.5k structure. and NPC should attack them just as they do players. if your mining in deep space you gotta protect your investment, setup a deep space log point. with sentry guns and whatnot. it should have a refine rate of a bit higher as well but not to high. i was *pulls out of a$$* thinking like 40 50+ %... that should be discussed a little further. but 8% is just a waste of coding by even implementing it at its current state, open the ears tomb Please formulate a better balance for mobils

Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2003.12.04 09:47:00 - [115]
 

well They've said player owned space stations (which includes mobile refinery) wont be out until tech 3 .. thats likely 6 months away .. so somehow I doubt that right now they give a hoot about balancing the refine % :P just making the concept and mechanics of it work

Thydon
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Posted - 2003.12.04 15:36:00 - [116]
 

How about...

If you blow up a station all the stored ore inside floats into space, ready for looting, in several cans or even just pure ore ?

That would make it pretty damn attractive to try and blow one up and would also increase inter-corp spying (more realistic)....

I agree with the others that 8% efficiency isnt enuf to place a mobile refinery anywhere.

Buddrow
State Protectorate
Posted - 2003.12.04 20:29:00 - [117]
 

well i was referring for them not catering to the current dynamic of the game. i like how there is mega and zyd shortages, AS THERE SHOULD BE, but we need to establish corps as the ones with the power to be able to actully have wars and whatnot, IE the loss of 10 bs's is recoverable..... but is still a horrible thing to half to recover from. i like the current balance but mobiles are worthless currently, so either listen to us devs or please spend your time on more looming things, ie balance of ships new ships and content. refinerys play no role currently, therefor give them no attention or give the proper amount.

Xandalis
Caldari
The Godfather and his Children
Posted - 2003.12.12 18:09:00 - [118]
 

Okay, now before anyone asks, no I have not read all the posts in here.

But from what I see here, I think you're going to make it TOO difficult for the newer/less advanced characters to get by in the game and will be favoring the larger player corps with these skill requirments, etc. And by doing so, will greatly reduce the enjoyability of the game.

I think a survey of the characters being used in Chaos would be a wise idea, to see what the average skill levels are. If they are all high, I would tune down the requirements a wee bit, especially since I've heard that such things as mobile refineries will cost an insane amount of money in the game.


Pages: 1 2 3 [4]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only