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Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.01 22:36:00 - [121]
 

Sounds about right to me, as long as active defenses includes being able to turn on an MWD and "strafing" away from the missile.

Insane Angel
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2003.09.02 04:37:00 - [122]
 

Rockets- "dumbfire" fly straight and have no tracking, with decent damage.no agility, good speed
Standard-better tracking, moderate damage, decent speed
Heavy-below average tracking, hvy damage, high speed
Torps-horrible tracking, superior damage, increased "life"
Cruise-excellent tracking, excellent damage, decent speed

IMO what they should be, and dont understand why missiles launched at the same time kill each other? All caldari ships have the "wing" span I assumed this is for spreading out launch tubes. Right now we are forced to fire em all in a long trail with the chance of a missile catching the blast radius of the missile in front of it.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.09.02 04:51:00 - [123]
 

Quote:
Rockets- "dumbfire" fly straight and have no tracking, with decent damage.no agility, good speed
Standard-better tracking, moderate damage, decent speed
Heavy-below average tracking, hvy damage, high speed
Torps-horrible tracking, superior damage, increased "life"
Cruise-excellent tracking, excellent damage, decent speed

IMO what they should be, and dont understand why missiles launched at the same time kill each other? All caldari ships have the "wing" span I assumed this is for spreading out launch tubes. Right now we are forced to fire em all in a long trail with the chance of a missile catching the blast radius of the missile in front of it.


Maybe you missed the lack of joystick support in Eve? I didn't.

Anyone that has played any type of flight/space sim know that dumbfire missiles are a pain in the ass with joystick support and a decent physics engine. In Eve, they'd be next to impossible simply from a lack of a cockpit Perspective to eyeball that your target is actually moving traversely and likely not to be there within the next 2 seconds.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.09.02 11:32:00 - [124]
 

My char on chaos doesn't have all the launchers i have on tran. So I'd be very happy if someone can tell me the ROF on the different heavy launchers, and also the siege launchers.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.09.02 13:04:00 - [125]
 

I don't see a problem with only 4 torpedoes wrecking a crusier. You have to factor in launch times and and the time it takes the torpedo to get to its target.

Then you take all that time, and compare it to how much damage a turret could have done in the same timeframe.

Obviously, the missile launcher needs to have a dps at least as good as the turret, and I think in most cases where xx number of missiles or torpedoes destroys a ship, that an equal number of high end turrets who have been firing for the same amount of time, will also have destroyed the ship.

Rancid Aluminium
Posted - 2003.09.02 15:17:00 - [126]
 

Well Ive read through this entire thread now and a few things scream sense and a few posts have caused me to laugh out loud.

The new missle speeds on Chaos has really improved things but I do agree that the damage needs increasing.
I think TomB should REALLY listen to Darth Maul, Rising Sin and in particular Brukhai Khan (great idea) as these guys clearly know what they are talking about. However the 10% dmg increase isnt enough IMHO. I think a 50% dmg bonus is MUCH more viable or even more but leave cost and size as they are now.
A cruise missle in RL is HUGE weapon and costs a sh*t load of money, when it hits though its devastating. Keep missles expensive and keep them taking up lots of room as people shouldnt be firing off 20 or 30 cruise missles an encounter. They are a killer weapon to be feared but shouldnt be in huge supply.

The two posts here which are RIDICULOUS though are:
"Quote from Ulstan
Ships designed around missiles (*all* caldari ships) are thus at a disadvantage. Are you trying to tell me no caldari ships are supposed to be able to solo? "
and
"Quote from Kimi
Caldari ships should be totally redesigned to allow more turret points and that basically makes missiles an afterthought - since that is pretty much what they are turning out to be anyway"

What on earth are you talking about, you want to stay away from that Vitoc.
Arguably best solo Frigate is Merlin = Caldari
Arguably best solo PVP Cruiser is Black Bird = Caldari
Arguably best solo NPC Cruiser is MOA = Caldari
Arguably best solo PVP Battleship is Scorp = Caldari

Oh let me look , both of you are Caldari, lets give you some more bonuses to your ships because you feel victimised currently ...ROFLMAO

What a good laugh that gave me !!! Keep the discussion to the missles and stop trying to plump your own greedy cause

Paul Dubois
Posted - 2003.09.02 15:24:00 - [127]
 

Problem is the chance to regenerate shields: shield boosters take between 2-5 seconds to take effect usually, and therefore for long range high damage weapons you generally have a chance to regain some shields between salvos, also although your torpedoes are not doing any more damage over time because they are landing much more damage at any one time they can overwhelm the shields of the ship they are being used against and damage seeps through to the armor if you see what I mean?

I'd rather see more frequent launches (not forgetting the speed of the high end missiles has been increased subtantially) than more damage, and of course a big drop in price.

With the kind of damage people are talking about a missile cruiser (not a battleship) can destroy another cruiser with one volley. Unless of course the torpedoes are designed not to be effective against anything below battleship size in which case I have no problem with it. Maybe I'm wrong but when talking about balancing of guns/missiles people seem to be concentrating on the battleship aspect, and quite a few of us don't have one.

Paul Dubois
Posted - 2003.09.02 15:36:00 - [128]
 

One other thing about defence against missiles: given the speed they go at now (2000ms) use smartbombs effectively is going to be a lot harder. Medium smartbomb has 3km range (from memory) - thats less 1.5 seconds from when its in range to when the missile detonates, for a small smartbomb its less than a second (and I'm assuming no lag here).

Same applies to guns, the autotarget module that many people used to use as a missile defence has a max range of 10km, that 5 seconds at 2000ms. Most cruisers and battleships cant target at that speed so that defence won't work anymore.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.09.02 15:45:00 - [129]
 

"Arguably best solo Frigate is Merlin = Caldari
Arguably best solo PVP Cruiser is Black Bird = Caldari
Arguably best solo NPC Cruiser is MOA = Caldari
Arguably best solo PVP Battleship is Scorp = Caldari"

Merlin is not best solo frigate. I prefer the tristan or rifter over the merlin.

The best solo NPC cruiser is either the maller or thorax. More guns and more damage modifiers. That is what you are looking at when you are trying to kill NPC's.

And the blackbird and scorp are only good because they *don't* have to rely on Missiles to be effective.

When was the last time you saw a Caracal or Raven? These ships *must* rely on their missiles, and as such, are some of the least popular (because they are the most ineffective) ships in PvP combat.

How many real fleet battles have you been in? I've been in Venal where fleets of EVOL and TTI battleships are fighting all the time.

Guess what I see? Zero minmatar ships. Zero Ravens.

Masses and masses and masses of Apocs/Armageddons. The majority of the fleet EVOL is running are in these gunboats. They use drones to creat more lag, and simply blow people out of the sky at a great rate. Goodly number of megathrons and dominix. A handful of scorpions.

Silver Striker
Posted - 2003.09.02 17:41:00 - [130]
 

Changes to the missles on chaos are excellent.

A few suggestions:

Torps should not be able to slow down to manuever. When i fight a Raven I end up getting thrown away from him and pointed direclty away from him. If I fire a torp it will turn around and go after him. This shouldn't be possible, manuvering on torps should be low enough that it cannot do more than a 90 deg turn from it's original course. I think it you just made the torps accelerate to max spd and stay there this would not be a problem.

Missle push needs to go. Getting pushed by missles faster than your ship can go under it's own power is ridiculous. Hits on a battleship should do almost nothing to it's spd, on cruisers and frigates they can get thrown around, but not propelled, just slow'd down.


TomB

Posted - 2003.09.02 17:41:00 - [131]
 

UPDATE:

* Missile volume has been divided by 5, example: torpedo was 10 volume before, is 2 volume now. Launchers have been updated with these changes.

* All missiles will now come in stack of 10.

* Mineral manufacturing price has been decreased a whole lot.

Please leave your comments behind.

TomB

Posted - 2003.09.02 17:45:00 - [132]
 

Word on Defender missiles:

* We have fixed one error where defender missiles where trying to attack already destroyed missiles.

* We have altered it so that defenders "malfunction" and get destroyed without it exploding at your own ship.

* There is one more error where a defender missile will orbit your ship when it does not reach the missile in time, we will fix this.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.09.02 17:45:00 - [133]
 

Those changes look good Tom. One way or another, it seems missiles are becoming more cost effective to use.

Caillech
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2003.09.02 17:49:00 - [134]
 

yet more changes ...this is just wonderful ..cant wait for this patch to go live on TQ

just hope we dont have to wait long... my fingers are really iching for large weapons that arent useless etc :)

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.02 18:13:00 - [135]
 

The torps need a decrease in agility and a small damage up.

I was flying a megathron with nanofibers and a MWD, doing some pretty extreme moves, flying straight past them, so that they have tu completly reverse direction, narrow 180 turns at ~1500 ms myself to shake them and so on - but they catched me finally.

It seems turns do not cost them any speed - unlike ships. My max speed was a few m/s over their one of 2000 m/s, but they hit me at the end because I was loosing speed through my turns while they didn't.

And, yes, it was a BS, but a BS with nanfibers and MWD is a pretty agile BS, I strongly doubt a cruiser or frig could avoid them either way. Must test that today.

Karif
Amarr
Posted - 2003.09.02 18:30:00 - [136]
 

Any word of FOF missile AI?

Never used them personally, but many reported them to be flakey...

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.09.02 19:03:00 - [137]
 

working FoF would close the gap between minmatar/caldari ships and other races. even if you were jammed to no end, you could launch an endless salvo of FoF cruise missiles.

TomB

Posted - 2003.09.02 19:07:00 - [138]
 

I've upgraded FOF missiles in damage and agility/speed compaired to the normal missiles, and price as well. This was something I must admit ... that I forgot. You will see it when I update Chaos next time.

On FOF missiles being flakey I have not gotten any reports about them being flakey besides them not changing target if target got destroyed before the missile reaches it's target, which is not a high priority to fix I am sorry to say.

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.09.02 19:56:00 - [139]
 

TomB, I hope that you will go over the agility again sometime as it appears to still need tweaking. A Torpedo can easily hit a frigate moving around at 1000 m/s with all its lowslots filled with nanofibers. I know Torpedos are supposed to have low agility but when you see them fly, they are very agile and can slow down and turn extremely fast.

I would rather have seen their damage increased than their cost reduced, but I am happy with either. Keep up the good work.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.09.02 20:29:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: dalman on 02/09/2003 20:36:58
Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadNOW I'M COMPLETELY MAD ABOUT THISEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

After reading the change from damage to speed boost on cruise missile skill. Pasting my reply in my old thread in the "skills" forum:

Now, this TRULY SUCKS, if you don't mind the language, cause I'm really mad about this.

Tomb, please tell my why I have completely wasted 450.000 skill points, to get cruise missile to lvl 4. When I would have had better use of missiles by only bringing missile laucher operations to lvl 4 and torpedos to lvl 1.

Torpedos deal more damage and travel faster. I'm only interested in destroying battleships. Then the bad agility of torps really don't matter. Which makes cruise missiles more a weapon against cruisers. Then WHY does cruise missiles require a lvl 5 skill, while torps only require a lvl 4 skill???

As the stats are now, I'll use torpedos, which means my 250.000 skill points in cruise missiles are completely wasted, and I also think the 200.000 skill points to get 5% better ROF from M.L.O. lvl 5 instead of 4 is a complete WASTE.

To justify this, you simple have to give the cruise missiles a big boost in damage, and really lower the agility of torps.

The speed boost simply isn't enough. All Caldari and Minmatar pilots will continue to use as many turrets their ships allows, and everyone will use torpedos in their remaining slots.

I'm expecting an answer on this. 450.000 skill points wasted isn't funEvil or Very Mad


Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.09.02 20:39:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Jim Raynor on 02/09/2003 20:40:43
Hmmm.. ya cruise missles should be superior to torpedoes.. either that or torps should be rank5 and cruise rank4.

That being said, launching 2 missles at once shouldn't result in both getting blown up and dealing no damage to your target. Is that fixed yet? =(

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.09.02 20:54:00 - [142]
 

Yes, Dalman, that sucks. Luckily I have all my missile skills at 3 but I realize 450,000 skill points is a good chunk.

However, Torpedos should do the most damage. But combined with their not-so-bad-at-all agility they are indeed superior to Cruise missiles. They might have a bit more agility but as the Torpedos are already more than agile enough, they really have no purpose. Their agility needs a drastic decrease, simple as that.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.02 21:11:00 - [143]
 

I would consider the current trop agilitly already even too much for cruise missles.

(disclaimer - this is not a "make cruise missles even wrose for their skill points, but a torps have a far far to much agility atm comment)

Cruise Missles should be the fastest missles, not torps, and those with the biggest range - pretty much like cruise missles are today.

Torps should deal the biggest damage, have medium range and should be the slowest, not the fastest and a very low agility.

All missles - especially those with a big aoe like torps and cruises - should detonate once their target is in theri aoe, not when they actually hit it.

Everything IMO, of cource.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.09.02 21:46:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: dalman on 02/09/2003 21:54:25
Yea, I agree that the torps should do most damage.
And that cruise missiles should have the highest skills. Cause cruise missiles simply should be the best missiles, cause they are so much more high-tech than a torpedo.

But that's not how it is. Cruise missiles needs to have much better speed, flight time and agility than torpedos.

My suggestion would be to:
1. Boost damage on both cruise missiles and torpedos. A real boost. Reason for that are many. Not only are they not close to match the damage over time of turrets, but also because the use of missiles simply disables you from using drones. By using both, you'll destroy your own drones in no time(unless you use attack/return command on your drones all the time to keep them at a good range from the target). So, the combination that turrets deal more damage than missiles + missile users can't use drones makes it simple. Missiles NEED A BIG DAMAGE BOOST.

2. But also NERF THE SPEED ON TORPEDOS. Because torpedos are not to be the best missile. They should not be able to be fired from as long range as cruise, and it should take time for them to reach the target. And the agility should be so bad that they actually miss even a battleship quite often.

*edit* And this is VERY IMPORTANT:
With the next patch, with nerf of shield hardeners and damage boost on turrets, fights will be MUCH shorter. This adds 2 things that are bad for missiles:
1. The time before missiles hit the target will still be a big issue, despite the huge speed boost.
2. Battles will no longer be decided by the fact that laser/hybrid users run out of cap. Thus, the advantage of missiles not using cap will be VERY small again.

Ka'loor
Amarr
Die Argonen
Posted - 2003.09.02 22:07:00 - [145]
 

I dont think Cruise missles should be the fastest missles in game, rather make it:

Light->Heavy->Cruise, as this would reflect the real world too :) Cruise actually dont even use a rocket motor for movement. Plus itd give degradation in speed from lightest to biggest, but a damage increase too.

Small, little nimble missles, versus bigger, and slower ones, with rockets and torpedoes being, the two extremes.

Professor Smith
Posted - 2003.09.02 22:39:00 - [146]
 

I have read a series of books by David Webber about a ships captain called Honor Harrington. One of the things I liked about these books was the space combat. They use missiles for ranged attacks then close and use ship mounted guns for med/close range.

One of the things I liked about the missiles was the varied payloads and how they attack.

Example: 2 hvy cruisers are in combat and one fires missiles at the other. Most of the missiles are defeated by point defenses but one or two get through. Some payloads explode using nuclear charges close to the ship. Others explode sending Xrays lancing thru the unfortunate ship.

This is something I would like to see in eve. Missiles that dont 'explode' but once close to the targeted ship deliver massive salvos of Xray/Gamma lasers. Another possibility would be sub munitions like antiarmor / antipersonell packages delivered by todays modern artillery.

Cheers
The Prof

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.09.02 23:12:00 - [147]
 

Missiles do need a damage boost indeed, even if cost is reduced. Turrets can easily deal 3 times more damage over time. That's silly. Missiles should be a force to fear!

Torpedos should become alot slower by reducing the agility since it will take ages to accelerate to their max speed, if they ever do. Although around 1500-1800 speed would be nice.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.02 23:18:00 - [148]
 

TomB, still need fixes:

1. Raise damage on torpedoes to 525 and decrease agility a lot and lower their top speed to below cruise missiles' top speed. We've tested and found their agility able enough to hit small fast-moving targets, which doesn't make sense.

2. Cruise missiles should be raised to 350 damage and kept the way they are in other ways.

3. All other missiles need 10% more damage.

Please take a look at Brukhai's idea concerning increase in ROF on small missiles with large launchers. This would make small missiles useful for cruisers and battleships.

An example of such use: I think it would be cool if you could load FOF rockets (yeah, I know they don't exist yet) into a siege launcher, turn it on, and watch like a hundreds rockets shoot out over 20 seconds shooting down any nearby missiles and doing some damage to frigates.

Reventlov
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.09.03 06:11:00 - [149]
 

I gotta pitch in on the CM vs Torp issue. Torps are too fast and/or agile for the moment. If torpedoes as depicted in most novels/films are in any way a model for how they are supposed to work in Eve, I'd say a bit more dmg and a LOT less range would stand them apart from CMs. In my opinion, a volley of Torpedoes fired from close range by a Raven should really give the target reason to change pants. CMs on Chaos seem just right to me now (I'm trying not to be a greedy Tempest driver, but a tad more damage?). Torps seem to be the problem really. Too fast, too long ranged, or too agile. Take your pick and bash it with the nerfbat and we're there with the missiles I think.

And defenders...

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2003.09.03 07:30:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 03/09/2003 07:31:56

The problem of the ROF is that it seems tied to the launcher object, not the missile object (in programming terms).

Perhaps the solution would be to speed up M-12 launchers down to 8 seconds, and introduce new intermediary launchers between the M-12 and the H-50, as well as the H-50 to the Seige Launchers, such as hypothetically speaking:

X-20 = 20 light missiles, 4 heavy missiles, 10 second firing rate

Z-30 = 30 light missiles, 5 heavy missiles, 12 second firing rate.

I suggest also a new low slot module intended to increase missile ROF and tracking speed. For purposes of discussion, let's call it "Missile Fire Control System."

Another way is to a rockets only launcher, lights only launcher, heavy only launcher, Cruise missile only launcher and torpedo only launcher. The ROF is scaled from fastest to slowest.



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