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Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 22:04:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Kimi on 30/08/2003 22:07:37
Edited by: Kimi on 30/08/2003 22:06:31
Quote:
Training for large turrets, and all the supporting gunnery skills required to make them work takes a month or more for an average spread of lvl 3 gunnery skills and gunnery 5...


Uhm.... gee a whole month.

Cruise Missiles 5 p w 4 5 44d, 21h, 8m, 28s 65d, 10h, 8m (include launcher 5)

Defender Missiles 2 p w 4 5 17d, 22h, 51m, 23s

Heavy Missiles 2 p w 3 4 3d, 4h, 9m, 57s (level 4)

Standard Missiles 2 p w 3 4 3d, 4h, 9m, 57s (level4)

Approximate total: 96 days.

That does not include lower skills that I have, like rockets 3.

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 22:09:00 - [92]
 

ok kimi, well lets let tomB put cruise missiles and torpedos into uber super damage mode. that way, everyone can just pack 50 torpedos into their ship and rip apart anything that comes near it. scorpion with 4 EM hardeners? dont matter when your torpedo does 6000 damage!

Confused


Meau
Fatal Furballs
Posted - 2003.08.30 22:27:00 - [93]
 

A few words to the people who think missiles are too expensive:
Large missiles will never ever be cost efficient for farming NPCs. Why should they? Ever seen someone hunt ducks with missiles instead of a rifle?

Cruise missiles and torpedoes should be mainly used to shoot other people.
For me its like that:
a) i use missiles worth a total of f.e. 100k and lose. Loss: At least a few millions for eq, maybe a clone, even if my ship is fully insured
b) i use missiles worth a total of f.e. 100k and win, loss: neglectable, who cares

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.30 23:38:00 - [94]
 

Huh? Well, using torps and cruise missiles is extremely costly (ie, enough for one battle can range in the several millions). I'm not saying they should be cheap enough that we use should be able to use them like crazy in PVE. I'm saying decrease the price by 33-50% so that they're a more viable weapon to use in PVP. And 10% more damage. And fix the bugs! And Khan's idea still sound like a good one.

I have noticed after playing in Chaos today that torpedo agility seems too good. The frigate pilot we were messing around with was having too hard a time dodging them. Frigates should be able to dodge them no problem, I think. I guess, once they reach full speed, torps specifically should barely be able to turn.

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.31 00:11:00 - [95]
 


Quote:


Uhm.... gee a whole month.

Cruise Missiles 5 p w 4 5 44d, 21h, 8m, 28s 65d, 10h, 8m (include launcher 5)

Defender Missiles 2 p w 4 5 17d, 22h, 51m, 23s

Heavy Missiles 2 p w 3 4 3d, 4h, 9m, 57s (level 4)

Standard Missiles 2 p w 3 4 3d, 4h, 9m, 57s (level4)

Approximate total: 96 days.

That does not include lower skills that I have, like rockets 3.


ROFLMAO!! If im reading that correctly you're *****ing about the training times with 3 and 4 in Perception and Willpower? BWWHAHA Try using something besides a research alt to train combat skills and get some learning stacked in there and you will see the difference. My P and W are upwards of 15 or 16 and training for cruise missle skills and all subordinate missles skills took me about a week or so total.

And training cruise missle to lvl 5? Jeesh.. after reading that dribble I have serious doubts that anything you say is true actually.. there are practically NO skills in this game worth training to level 5 UNLESS that lvl 5 skill is a prerequisite for another skill that you need to train.

Don't try to blame others just because you "supposedly" spent 96 days training on missle skills.. lol still laughing.Twisted Evil


Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.31 00:25:00 - [96]
 

Quote:

I have noticed after playing in Chaos today that torpedo agility seems too good. The frigate pilot we were messing around with was having too hard a time dodging them. Frigates should be able to dodge them no problem, I think. I guess, once they reach full speed, torps specifically should barely be able to turn.


Indeed.. torps are better than cruise missles now , and even tho they take up more room, they do 50% more damage.... so they definately need some tweaking downwards (cause I don't see the need in making cruise missles ungodly uber just in order to keep them several notches above Torps where they should be)

Also there really, really needs to be limitations placed on the different missle types based on vessle size. Cheap disposable frigs shouldn't be able to launch 1800 dmg vollies of torps.. thats way way too much damage for a frigate to be capable of.

There needs to be a modification of the launchers for a vessle class restriction and a missle type restriction (not just a volume limitation) so frigates are limited to heavy missles and rockets, Cruisers can use up to torps and BB's can use all. If not I can allready see a couple disposable frigs equiped with stealth targeters and cruise missle bays rollin in and completely descimating most anything they want before they ever knew what hit em. And if and when they loose their frig what are they out of.. 100k tops? Naaaa that can't be allowed to happen. But it WILL if certain restrictions arent put in place on these new upgraded missles.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.08.31 00:54:00 - [97]
 

I would really, really, really love to see a separate missile bay added. :)


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.31 01:16:00 - [98]
 

Quote:

Indeed.. torps are better than cruise missles now , and even tho they take up more room, they do 50% more damage.... so they definately need some tweaking downwards (cause I don't see the need in making cruise missles ungodly uber just in order to keep them several notches above Torps where they should be)

Also there really, really needs to be limitations placed on the different missle types based on vessle size. Cheap disposable frigs shouldn't be able to launch 1800 dmg vollies of torps.. thats way way too much damage for a frigate to be capable of.

There needs to be a modification of the launchers for a vessle class restriction and a missle type restriction (not just a volume limitation) so frigates are limited to heavy missles and rockets, Cruisers can use up to torps and BB's can use all. If not I can allready see a couple disposable frigs equiped with stealth targeters and cruise missle bays rollin in and completely descimating most anything they want before they ever knew what hit em. And if and when they loose their frig what are they out of.. 100k tops? Naaaa that can't be allowed to happen. But it WILL if certain restrictions arent put in place on these new upgraded missles.


Sounds like you're complaining about good tactics to me. A Breacher is supposed to be a dangerous ship in its element. It's your job to keep it from getting into its element.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.31 01:49:00 - [99]
 

"Cheap disposable frigs shouldn't be able to launch 1800 dmg vollies of torps.."

... They can't; iirc the best setup you can fit on a frigate is 4 x m12 launcher which can fire 4 cruise missiles -- 1200 hp max against soft target. Add to that, the frigate has to either come really close (and is v.likely to be destroyed in a process) or, to remain safe, fire from such large distance you have all time you need to destroy the incoming missiles... i wouldn't say 'tis really as unbalanced as you make it sound. :s

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.31 02:07:00 - [100]
 

Yeah, I don't know why you're complaining too much about frigates. It's not like we'll suddenly be seeing tons of pirates out there camping gates in ships that can be killed in 1-2 shots. I think for war, frigates mounted for heavy assault with missiles would be pretty cool though.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.31 03:00:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 31/08/2003 03:00:56
Quote:
"Cheap disposable frigs shouldn't be able to launch 1800 dmg vollies of torps.."

... They can't; iirc the best setup you can fit on a frigate is 4 x m12 launcher which can fire 4 cruise missiles -- 1200 hp max against soft target. Add to that, the frigate has to either come really close (and is v.likely to be destroyed in a process) or, to remain safe, fire from such large distance you have all time you need to destroy the incoming missiles... i wouldn't say 'tis really as unbalanced as you make it sound. :s


You're correct. I'm unware of any frigate size launcher capable of carrying even a single torp. Upgraded Limos Missile Bay has a capacity of 6.6m3. Torps are 10m3. And none of the frigates are capable of equipping even a single heavy launcher.

Oh and btw TomB:
Cruise Missile skill does not give bonus to cruise missile damage according to the text. Yah, this will be my mantra in this thread till you go "Okay Here! Here's your damn damage!" Twisted Evil

Rattican
Posted - 2003.08.31 05:51:00 - [102]
 

Quote:
At closer range, missiles with high damage would be dealing damage to your own ship. Short range missile with high agility are more considered for taking out either drones or fast moving objects such as frigates.


Who shoots missiles at drones? You give your game more tactical credit than it deserves.

Booky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.31 06:08:00 - [103]
 

Quote:
Quote:
At closer range, missiles with high damage would be dealing damage to your own ship. Short range missile with high agility are more considered for taking out either drones or fast moving objects such as frigates.


Who shoots missiles at drones? You give your game more tactical credit than it deserves.



Um, I do. I took out 5 drones with one cruise missle :-)

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.31 09:53:00 - [104]
 

I was about to say - a large or medium size gun can't touch a drone buzzing around your ship. Missiles and drones of your own do the job fine though.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 10:09:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Kimi on 31/08/2003 10:37:33
Edited by: Kimi on 31/08/2003 10:35:41
Quote:
ROFLMAO!! If im reading that correctly you're *****ing about the training times with 3 and 4 in Perception and Willpower?


Idiot.

Those are from the skill calc using my actual stats, which are 11/12 percep willpower, and 15/19 intel/mem. Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to train a skill to 5, it is a done deal. And, yes, considering the state of missiles, it was a big mistake to train Cruise to 5.

Try again.

Quote:
ok kimi, well lets let tomB put cruise missiles and torpedos into uber super damage mode. that way, everyone can just pack 50 torpedos into their ship and rip apart anything that comes near it.


Now, that is just goofy. I never said any such thing.
Besides that, you could not fit 50 torpedoes into any ship but an industrial, which last time I looked, had no missile hardpoints.
Where did you see where I said 6000 damage?
What I said was 300% to 600% increase was needed. Even for the best torpedo, that would be 3600 @ 600%. For the worst cruise missile it would be 495. Hardly uber - a torpedo should be in the 1500 to 3000 range, considering how slow it is, it's size, it's cost, and it's crappy range. Even then I doubt I would bother to load any.

But, regardless, I pretty much give up ever trying to make my maxed missile char viable since it is becoming obvious that missiles will never be made worth the space and cost vs damage.
I am not about to start all over with another 2+ months to train all the gunnery and various types of weapons up. My subscription expires before I could get it all trained up to my current level in missiles skills.

Since most people seem to be staunch defenders of the current damage rates for missiles, then most Caldari ships shoulc be totally redesigned to allow more turret points and that basically makes missiles an afterthought - since that is pretty much what they are turning out to be anyway.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.31 12:28:00 - [106]
 

Quote:
1500 to 3000 range


Shocked

K, that would mean 4-12 torps killing a battleship (depending on hardeners used and whether you mean 1500 or 3000). In Chaos (with torps moving so quickly), it's way too easy to hit a battleship with 4-12 torps. Having this sort of damage would mean missiles would be very imbalanced in the other direction. Try 500-600 damage AT MOST for torps.

Paul Dubois
Posted - 2003.08.31 14:14:00 - [107]
 

Even at 500-600 damage one salvo of 4 missiles (if they all hit) will pretty much destroy many cruisers, at the very least itll strip the shields, with the next volley wiping it out.

With heavy launchers you could fire two salvos in what 30 seconds or less? From memory with the right skills and a pirate drop launcher you could get that down to 24?

So basically 24 seconds to destroy any cruiser?

Possibly a lil bit quick.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.31 15:09:00 - [108]
 

"So basically 24 seconds to destroy any cruiser?

Possibly a lil bit quick."


Bah; i just had hardened shields stripped off the cruiser in exactly 12 hits with a single tachyon gun, (i think it was tachyon, can't remember for sure). About half of those hits were 'barely scratches' to boot... With its RoF of 4 secs or so and full volleys, it'd mean the cruiser can be destroyed in roughly 10 secs or even less.

... and you people complain missiles would get too powerful if they had less than half of that power... blah. --;;

Lurk
Gallente
The PAIN Syndicate
Posted - 2003.08.31 16:23:00 - [109]
 

If you let torpedoes hit your cruiser it's your own fault if you get destroyed in 30 seconds ...

Nephlite
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 16:44:00 - [110]
 

Exactly what would be so horrible about having dangerous missle frigates? I mean considering how weak they are, a battlefleet being forced to employ its own gunships just for frigate defence would add a lot of depth to the game.

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.08.31 20:28:00 - [111]
 

One thing... as far as I know the only Gallente frigate that even has a missile hardpoint only has one such. I guess that would cause a slight balance issue.

I think that the damage of missile should match their cost, and their current cost should NOT be reduced! If a frigate pilot can afford it, then indeed he should be able to scratch a Battleship.

I think around 50, 100, 200, 400 and 800 would be good, with slight agility tweaks on top of what is on Chaos atm. I feel that Cruise and Torpedos still navigate very quick and can easily be used against frigates flying at 800 m/s thus leaving not much of a reason to use smaller missiles against smaller targets.

Not counting resists, that would be at most 1600 damage from a Kestrel in one volley which is all it will be able to fire before it gets blasted. Not much of a threat to any Bship alone, but a number of those would be a huge problem, which is exactly what they should be.

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 20:30:00 - [112]
 

uh, kimi, a raven has 665 cargo. in that you could put 66 torpedos, or 133 cruise missiles.. each H50 holds two torps or five cruise missiles, thats another 12 torp/25 cruise right there. so a fully rigged up raven holds 77 torpedos or 158 cruise. the raven and scorpion are ***PVP*** ships, not NPC hunters. if you want npc hunting you use amarr. why even bother with ammunition and missiles when you can vape a simple to kill sansha with a few volleys from a tachyon beam? its just foolish.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.31 22:11:00 - [113]
 

Quote:
If you let torpedoes hit your cruiser it's your own fault if you get destroyed in 30 seconds ...


Someone hasn't been playing on Chaos where torpedoes move up to 2km/sec Rolling Eyes

Hm, I think 800 damage is a little much for torpedoes, unless you severely nerf their agility. As it stands in Chaos, they should defnitely have less agility, as well as a lower top speed than the cruise missiles.

I think 550 should be good for torpedoes, 400 for cruise missiles, and a small increase in damage in all lower missiles.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.09.01 02:14:00 - [114]
 

Quote:
Quote:
If you let torpedoes hit your cruiser it's your own fault if you get destroyed in 30 seconds ...


Someone hasn't been playing on Chaos where torpedoes move up to 2km/sec Rolling Eyes

Hm, I think 800 damage is a little much for torpedoes, unless you severely nerf their agility. As it stands in Chaos, they should defnitely have less agility, as well as a lower top speed than the cruise missiles.

I think 550 should be good for torpedoes, 400 for cruise missiles, and a small increase in damage in all lower missiles.


Actually, until TomB or someone fixes the Cruise Missile skill, it may be too earlier to play with their damage. I'm sure someone can dig out the formula and see what Cruise Missile 5 is supposed to make the damage on a cruise missile worth.

Oh and btw TomB:
Cruise Missile skill does not give bonus to cruise missile damage according to the text. Yah, this will be my mantra in this thread till you go "Okay Here! Here's your damn damage!" Twisted Evil

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.01 03:34:00 - [115]
 

Quote:
Actually, until TomB or someone fixes the Cruise Missile skill, it may be too earlier to play with their damage. I'm sure someone can dig out the formula and see what Cruise Missile 5 is supposed to make the damage on a cruise missile worth.


Good point. TomB, fix the cruise missile skill!

Gan Ning
Caldari
Posted - 2003.09.01 10:31:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Gan Ning on 01/09/2003 10:31:48
I believe missiles still need damage mods. One of the biggets problem is that missiles can be stopped with smartbombs or defenders. Turret and projectile weapon fire (ignoring acuracy) will hit most of the time.

Even with the improvements, missiles still have no mods to increase their damage, accuracy or rate of fire.

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.09.01 12:03:00 - [117]
 

I don't see why cruise missile skill even should grant a damage bonus as all the others grant a bonus to speed, no? Just give it a higher base damage that's all.

And torpedos _should_ be extremely damaging, much more so than cruise missiles. I mean, look at the explosions for crying out loud. But on the other hand as you said their agility should be vastly reduced. This will affect their traveltime aswell (acceleration) so I don't think their speed has to be lowered (infact this would just allow them to navigate better). You should not be able to orbit another ship at 1km and set loose your torpedos and expect them to hit. They should be strictly for longrange engagements against large and slow targets. And against such, they should be devastating.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.01 13:09:00 - [118]
 

Yeah, some good points. Like I said in my other posts, all missiles of all types need 10% more damage (torps possibly more as long as their agility is thrown out the window). 1500 like someone suggested is far too high though. I can imagine 800 at most, but then, their agility would have to be ridiculously low.

As it stands in Chaos right now, torps easily overpower cruise missiles (faster and more damage with not very much difference in agility) - which doesn't make sense, especially considering the high training time for cruise missiles. Giving torps wayyy less agility would fix this too.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.09.01 13:44:00 - [119]
 

... Given they are supposed to be 'dumb', mayhaps making the torpedoes unguided missiles would do the trick? As in, they are powerful and fast, but fly only in straight line. This way they have a chance to hit large, slow moving ships and stations, but anything able to maneuver fast can shake them off. On the other hand cruise missiles would be relatively slower and weaker, but still able to correct their course if they miss the target... o.O

Eilora Wingshy
Minmatar
Solar Wind
Posted - 2003.09.01 21:39:00 - [120]
 

A completely dumb torp is really pointless.. then you have to be within 2km or something to be able to hit a BS with any probability. I'ts a torpedo, not a poking device with a warhead at it's end. You won't hit anything that's moving -at all- if they are completely dumb. Not unless you give them instant topspeed on launch and move at 5km/sec.. which would be seriously dumb..

It's a torp, it costs more, should be a kinda slow to manuver, longrange, heavy hitting thing, that costs alot. Whearas the cruise missile should be not as heavy hitting, much more nimbler and with the same range, doing less dmg. Ie, you decide if you want to trade dmg for agility. Tho using on a bs it shouldn't matter, they should be hit almost every time except if they use active defenses.


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