open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Missile + Launcher changes on Chaos
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7

Author Topic

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.29 22:02:00 - [61]
 

Quote:
Here's another matter on the missile thingy, ever thought of the 'push'? If you take a BS weighing, oh, couple of thousand tons. And then you take a missile. Then you have the missile detonate next to the BS. Here comes the fun part, you'r battleship is thrown 200-300m of course.

My point is that they do way to much push imho. Now if they did dmg enough to motivate that push.. but as they are, doing like 10% shield dmg, and then flinging the ship around like a glove. It's a bit silly really.


Actually, that push is one of missiles' big advantages. If you're in a Megathron mounted with blasters and you see a Raven, you might as well run before battle starts cuz he's never gonna let you get close to your optimum range. Like I said, small steps - keep the new speed, increase damage 10% (and now that I think of it, reduce costs 50%) and missiles will be perfect.

Paul Dubois
Posted - 2003.08.29 22:10:00 - [62]
 

Just as long as missiles aren't made as certain hits. Still think ships shuold be able to evade based on their agility, better their agility the better the chance to avoid missiles. So a frigate should be pretty much impossible to hit with a cruise or torpedo but a rocket/light missile should have a good chance, cruiser should have no chance to avoid rocket/light, little chance to avoid heavy missile, and a decent chance to avoid cruise/torpedo. Battleships should have no chance to avoid anything :-)

Not sure about increasing damage, but I sure think the size and cost of missiles should be dropped. The size by maybe half, the cost by three quarters.

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.29 23:07:00 - [63]
 

One other side effect of all this missle loveing.. is now missle frigates can have battleship firepower. Coupled with the fact that that large turrets suck so bad you'll never be able to hit em, I think thats a bit unbalancing.

I think there should be a reevaluation of the launchers so that fitting requirements will restrict frigs to heavies, cruisers to torps, and BS to cruise.

Missles are VERY good now, and if they ever fix the remaining bugs will be just about where they need to be for their cost.

Ka'loor
Amarr
Die Argonen
Posted - 2003.08.29 23:10:00 - [64]
 

Ok the worst thing im seeing is, that Missle launchers get bigger and slower.

Currently the M-12 is faster at firing heavy missles than the H-50.

M-12
2 heavies in 20seconds plus 10 sec reload. 4 missles per minute

H-50
3 heavies per minute

????????

So basically whats that

What we need are smaller faster fire missle launchers for cruisers and BBs.

Snowman
Caldari
Posted - 2003.08.29 23:28:00 - [65]
 

I posed a thing about missle defences on the BS thread in response to someone mentioning evading torps, at the moment I don't think the missle defence options available are good enough to just throw the improved missles in.

At the moment there is not a viable set of defence measures available to pilots to use against these new missles. Therefore in addition to improving the missles there should also be some effort put into improving the defences for missles.

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 00:30:00 - [66]
 

yes, but you are forgetting, we really dont have "defense" against turrets. there isnt some sort of phalanx that shoots down railgun rounds. (if you try and factor in hardeners, remember that hardeners block all damages, not just turret or missile) thus, turrets still have a plus. you can mount damage modifiers for turrets that make them rival torpedos for damage. i have seen projectiles do 1100 on a critical and a couple hundred per shot, with faster refire rate than a missile. yes you can miss, but so can our missiles, have you ever heard of stationary objects like stations, stargates, asteroids and so on? they all stop missiles. turrets dont have a problem with that. also, one large round is what, 75 isk? (i dont keep up on L charges, dont use them) well a missile is 50,000 isk. for that cost increase you better damn well expect it to hurt, and hurt quite often. think of a missile as a bounty hunter's wet dream- limited supply, but powerful enough to quickly knock out one or two ships. as i can only hold 133 cruise missiles in my cargo hold, it isnt like pirates can camp FD-MLJ all day long in a missile boat. even if they did, they would probably lose quite a bit of profit hauling all those missiles.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.30 01:13:00 - [67]
 

"One other side effect of all this missle loveing.. is now missle frigates can have battleship firepower. Coupled with the fact that that large turrets suck so bad you'll never be able to hit em, I think thats a bit unbalancing."

... Will shoot myself in the foot by saying so, but your best defense against the missile frigate (or any frigate for that matter) would be a cap neutralizer module. It can turn a nimble ship into helpless sitting duck in couple of seconds... and then it doesn't matter how bad the tracking of your guns is. :s

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 01:57:00 - [68]
 

the guns still usually hit a frigate. basically if you just webifiy it, then its done for. but still, they are so expendable. someone can just load a kestrel with 4x wrath cruise missile and do 1200 damage on you.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 05:50:00 - [69]
 

Quote:
- All missiles need to have at least 10% more damage base than they do to give them a clear advantage over other weapon types (especially if they take so much cargo space)


sorry, but 10% would not even come close to making them viable.
With all the various bonuses and equipment, on a Caldari ship I can easily get much better bonuses than 10% for my hybrid weapons than that. Missiles have no damage/targeting modifying skills or modules, and the minor increase you get in speed from skills is of practically no help.

For missiles to be viable, they would need more like a 300% to 600% damage increase - and even that would still leave them far behind turrets if you consider cost and size limitations.

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.30 06:10:00 - [70]
 

So let's see.. the way it is on chaos now, i can sacrifice all my hislots for smartbombs... for missiles/torps all my med slots for hardeners to deal with turret damage, and all my lowslots for sensor boosters to not get jammed.


yeah caldari ships need help allright..Rolling Eyes

yeah, let's give missiles a 600% dmg increase and let them stream 30out in a line, and jam their target, while having the best shielding in the game to begin with....

Everyone is training for a scorp/raven now, lets not give them any reason to change their mind.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.30 06:31:00 - [71]
 

Quote:
Quote:
- All missiles need to have at least 10% more damage base than they do to give them a clear advantage over other weapon types (especially if they take so much cargo space)


sorry, but 10% would not even come close to making them viable.
With all the various bonuses and equipment, on a Caldari ship I can easily get much better bonuses than 10% for my hybrid weapons than that. Missiles have no damage/targeting modifying skills or modules, and the minor increase you get in speed from skills is of practically no help.

For missiles to be viable, they would need more like a 300% to 600% damage increase - and even that would still leave them far behind turrets if you consider cost and size limitations.


Every time I've had to use a cruise missile, I've never regret neither the size nore the cost. Landing them from long range on TQ is only possible against a n00b.

But from where I've used them, they've saved my ship a number of times. Consistant 230s with the Cats meant a lot when your artillery could still pull a "Barely Scratches" in optimal range Cool

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.30 06:58:00 - [72]
 

Quote:


For missiles to be viable, they would need more like a 300% to 600% damage increase - and even that would still leave them far behind turrets if you consider cost and size limitations.


Have you lost your mind? Either you 1) Haven't tested the new missles on Chaos or 2) were trying to make a joke and I missed it somehow.

So you want a guaranteed 2700 damage hit torpedo that moves at nearly 2000 m/s and has access to every damage type in the game? lol sorry, but no. I have always supported missles getting some love (they sure as hell needed it), but as they sit right now on chaos they are a very viable weapon (much too good for frigates to be using at the torp and cruise level) and once the annoying bugs of having them kill themselves or hitting your own ship are ironed out, they will finally be justified in their cost.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 07:15:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Kimi on 30/08/2003 07:20:08
Quote:
Either you 1) Haven't tested the new missles on Chaos or 2) were trying to make a joke and I missed it somehow.



1. yes I have tested them, and they still suck. The only modifier is speed. The damage still sucks, the cost still sucks, and the size still sucks.
2. Nope.

Fact: most Caldari ships are designed to be primarily missile boats.
This would imply that missiles would be the "weapon of choice" for many Caldari ships, such as the Caracal.
Try loading up a Caracal with the best (free) missiles on Chaos and go after a couple of the 20k to 50k npc pirate spawns. Tell me how long you can stay out without getting a new supply because you have run out of ammo...

All other weapon types have numerous skills and modules that can improve the targeting, damage, chance to hit, etc. Missile have NONE of that. Some cruise missiles only have 165 total damage - at a cost of around 10k to build (figure 15k if you buy). One single shot from a 250 proto can do more damage than that - and do it faster, cheaper, with less space, and do it for a much longer period of time - and with much lower skill - I had to train missile launcher 5 to use cruise missiles, to end up with a weapon that is essentially useless except to fill up an empty slot.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.30 07:33:00 - [74]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Kimi on 30/08/2003 07:20:08
Quote:
Either you 1) Haven't tested the new missles on Chaos or 2) were trying to make a joke and I missed it somehow.



1. yes I have tested them, and they still suck. The only modifier is speed. The damage still sucks, the cost still sucks, and the size still sucks.
2. Nope.

Fact: most Caldari ships are designed to be primarily missile boats.
This would imply that missiles would be the "weapon of choice" for many Caldari ships, such as the Caracal.
Try loading up a Caracal with the best (free) missiles on Chaos and go after a couple of the 20k to 50k npc pirate spawns. Tell me how long you can stay out without getting a new supply because you have run out of ammo...

All other weapon types have numerous skills and modules that can improve the targeting, damage, chance to hit, etc. Missile have NONE of that. Some cruise missiles only have 165 total damage - at a cost of around 10k to build (figure 15k if you buy). One single shot from a 250 proto can do more damage than that - and do it faster, cheaper, with less space, and do it for a much longer period of time - and with much lower skill - I had to train missile launcher 5 to use cruise missiles, to end up with a weapon that is essentially useless except to fill up an empty slot.


Make missles cheaper, let us store them in the drone bay! :)

Missles are certainly not NPC hunting weapons.. they're strictly for PvP only.

Boneca
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2003.08.30 09:08:00 - [75]
 

Why not make missiles only explode in proximity to ships, i can shoot straight thro a roid with my guns (not very realistic) so why not let missiles do the same. i know it's not a great solution but would make missiles much more feared if you can't negate them by simply flyin behind a roid.
Instantly NPC's are more dangerous and PC missile boats are more effective.
Still missiles ROF needs lookin at to IMO , the larger launchers ROF and the damage the missiles do is still way behind turrets on a DPS level, without even considering the cost of what is a largely ineffective weapon atm.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.30 10:49:00 - [76]
 

Quote:
yes I have tested them, and they still suck.


You need to test a little more, they're actually quite powerful considering they can deal large turret damage when your enemy is moving too quick for you tracking (plus, being able to knock you enemy away, thus lowering their transverse velocity!). Like I said, just 10% more damage, less cost, less space (or Raynor's "missile bay") and fix the bugs and missiles will have their spot as the superior weapon.

As for missile frigates having too much power... hm... maybe make heavy launchers use a little more powergrid or something so that they can't equip cruise or torps? Or maybe let them use them so that they can actually do some damage? I don't know, I don't specialize in that small ship stuff Neutral

Brukhai Khan
Minmatar
Annihilate.
Posted - 2003.08.30 11:43:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Brukhai Khan on 30/08/2003 12:04:52
how about linking the ROF of missile launchers to the type (i.e. size) of the missile that´s used? The larger the launcher, the smaller the reduction in ROF by missile size, the larger the missile the slower the rof. This could even be extended to negative ROF mali for smaller missiles (i.e. a ROF bonus).

edit: what I´m trying to say is that ROF isn´t calculated per shot, but per missile volume fired. A launcher might have a ROF of 10s/5m^3 missiles.

That would allow cruiser and battleship grade launchers to fire small (cheap) missiles at a good rate, while the small launchers would suck at firing cruise missiles or torpedoes.

The effects of this would be that big missiles would effectively be restricted to the big launchers (i.e. big ships), and that damages could be upgraded on the big missiles to make them a viable alternative to turrets. Alternately the smaller missiles (lights and even rockets) would gain importance (nobody uses them now) as their ROF gains in large launchers would give them good damage output over time, at a larger ammo requirement of course.

Second, make the launchers fire the missile AFTER the allotted ROF has passed. That way the 4 cruise missile Kestrel is a thing of the past and larger missiles can have their damage upgraded without having to fear suicide boats.

Ka'loor
Amarr
Die Argonen
Posted - 2003.08.30 13:27:00 - [78]
 

Brukha khan that would be a great improvement, as it would finally allow cruisers to get nice fast fire launchers for rockets or light missles, as it stands now, you just train to use cruise missles and forget the rest :(

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 13:28:00 - [79]
 

Quote:
Missles are certainly not NPC hunting weapons.. they're strictly for PvP only.


Says who? Who exactly decided that?

Is that an official CCP stance?

If a missile is a primary weapon, it should be as much for NPC hunting as for PvP.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.30 13:49:00 - [80]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Missles are certainly not NPC hunting weapons.. they're strictly for PvP only.


Says who? Who exactly decided that?

Is that an official CCP stance?

If a missile is a primary weapon, it should be as much for NPC hunting as for PvP.


Because shooting 1 cruise missle costs more than a 30k NPC pirate bounty. It's like throwing away money, turrets take out NPCs easier, they're weak.

They sometimes blow up cargo containers too, atleast if you use torpedoes.

Riddari
VIT
Posted - 2003.08.30 14:39:00 - [81]
 

Missiles own so bad on Chaos at the moment it's not funny.

Watching 10+ heavy missiles coming at you from a heavily shielded scorp or raven who has multiple shield hardeners as well makes you quiver in your apocalypse. You can't even approach him because the missiles knock you back. Running 3-4 concurrent smartbombs seems to be the only defence at the moment.

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 15:35:00 - [82]
 

kimi missiles are almost perfect as they are now. do you have any idea on how to compare them to something like lasers for usage in NPC hunts?

a laser uses a burst of energy to fire a focused beam at a ship.

a missile is a fabricated guidance system with mechanics, propulsion, and a warhead. yea, they sound quite alike in cost and purpose. Rolling Eyes

why not just make torpedos 1 isk each, do 3000m/s and 65,000 damage? Rolling Eyes

Triniton
Minmatar
Zombie Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 17:18:00 - [83]
 

Digital Sin HOW CAN U SAY THAT, do u know the mineral cost for missle´s? do you know that they reload slow, fire slow, they cost alot and dont deal that much damage! I havent try´d them on chaos but as far as i know the changes are rather little.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 17:41:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Kimi on 30/08/2003 17:45:21
Quote:
Missiles own so bad on Chaos at the moment it's not funny.


No, it is NOT funny. In fact it is sad.

My main character has been training towards missiles almost since day one. She is maxed out on nearly all missile skills.
On Chaos she loses 90% of the time to almost any other cruiser setup when using a Caracal.

I have been using and playing with missiles for ages, and I know what they can do and cannot do - and right now they are a LONG ways from being a viable weapon.
Very impressive explosions and all, but if you actually compare damage over time with a Raven vs ANY other battleship, the Raven will lose every time if it relies on missiles.

I think there is a problem in perception here.

IMO, missiles should be a viable *complete weapons system* by themselves. They are NOT slot fillers, they are not secondary weapons, they are not weapons only for PvP - or at least they should not be. If they are, then that makes half of the Caldari ships useless.
I should not have to mount 3 rail guns to support my missiles. It should be the other way around.

Cao Cao
Caldari
S.A.S
Posted - 2003.08.30 19:22:00 - [85]
 

Keep the cost for missiles very high. Adjust their usefulness to that cost.

i.e., make them a weapon that has incredible punch for extreme expense and that you can't use them effectively over long encounters since you can only carry a limited number.

the weapon of an aristocrat :) or pvper he heh heh

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 20:24:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Digital Sin on 30/08/2003 20:25:33
triniton, maybe for you. i just ran off 1200 cataclysm cruise missiles for the hell of it. people with money dont have this sort of problem. Cool


i would have produced more, but i ran out of tritanium.


funny though, if i were to purchase them at NPC cost i now have 36 million isk worth of missiles. =D fun stuff.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.30 20:25:00 - [87]
 

Quote:
I havent try´d them on chaos but...


What are you doing here then? Go see for yourself how much they rock now. Nothing bothers me more than people who post here before testing these weapons.

Ya know, I thought I had the perfect suggestion until I saw Khan's idea about volume VS ROF. That's freaking brilliant! Along with my little fixes, missiles might become perfect with that. TomB, take a look at that one - it's probably the best idea in this whole thread. And from my corpmate no less. Jeez, I'm just gonna go think about how awesome my corp is now...

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.30 20:36:00 - [88]
 

Quote:
IMO, missiles should be a viable *complete weapons system* by themselves. They are NOT slot fillers, they are not secondary weapons, they are not weapons only for PvP - or at least they should not be. If they are, then that makes half of the Caldari ships useless.
I should not have to mount 3 rail guns to support my missiles. It should be the other way around.


Well.. this is the root of your problem then. You are wanting missles to be something that they aren't, nor from all indications were ever supposed to be. Missles, when tuned, will be a very worthwile and viable suppliment to normal turret loadouts. One reason they will never, and should never, be superior to turrets is their training and fitting requirements for one thing. Please... it takes a couple days training to be able to use torps, and a week or so to go all the way to cruise missles. Training for large turrets, and all the supporting gunnery skills required to make them work takes a month or more for an average spread of lvl 3 gunnery skills and gunnery 5. You'd probably need to figure in high electronics and engineering skills as well, since fitting a decent number of LG turrets isn't possible without those being high as well.

Missles are supplimental damage that can be used to turn the tide in a pvp battle. Once they're fixed they will fill that role marvelously.

So far as your statement about Calderi ships being gimped? lol Calderi ships are arguably the best PvP ships in this game with their superior shielding, abundant mid slots, and decent overall specs and layouts. When these new missles hit TQ, Calderi and Min ships are going to go way way up on the ladder of best PvP battleships - and Im talking strictly about fighting, not EW.. since the Scorp is allready the king of EW.


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.30 21:25:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 30/08/2003 21:29:19
Quote:
Make missles cheaper, let us store them in the drone bay! :)

Missles are certainly not NPC hunting weapons.. they're strictly for PvP only.


Sorry, Drone bay isn't an option. One of the Minmatar ship's strengths, like the Rupture and the Typhoon, is that they have no specific speciality. They're part gunship, part missile boat and part drone carrier. A move like this would weaken Minmatar ships.

Oh and btw TomB:
Cruise Missile skill does not give bonus to cruise missile damage according to the text. Yah, this will be my mantra in this thread till you go "Okay Here! Here's your damn damage!" Twisted Evil

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.30 21:59:00 - [90]
 

Quote:
Missles are supplimental damage that can be used to turn the tide in a pvp battle. Once they're fixed they will fill that role marvelously.


Nah, they should be able to do some heavy damage *at a price* (that price being that they are extremely expensive). Otherwise, the Raven, Caracal, and other missileboats just won't be worth it. If they're strictly meant for support, people might as well use Minmatar ships for missiles because they have a good missile/turret balance.

PS TomB, fix missile bonuses!!111!one!


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only