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New Breed
Posted - 2003.08.27 12:22:00 - [1]

I've tried reverse engineering a few items, but it always comes up with a message saying that the job would certainly fail.

Any ideas on what I can actually reverse engineer?


Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2003.08.27 13:39:00 - [2]

It has not been fully implemented. Right now RE doesn't work at all - they are still pondering the impact it would have and are wondering how to balance it.

Posted - 2003.08.27 14:05:00 - [3]

it needs to be nigh on impossible - thats how you balance it.

1% base chance per level of RE skill + 1% per level of the corresponding skills in electronics, engineering, science, research.

Thats a 25% chance total.
And i think thats still a bit high IMO.

There should be massive research costs as well in minerals, trade goods and ISK.

Nerhtal Al'Thali
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
Posted - 2003.08.28 12:35:00 - [4]

meaning once you succesfully reverse engineer an item it will be damn well worth it too!

or we'll just get the whole everyone floods the market with proto equipment bp's altho bpc will be limited run only

Posted - 2003.08.28 12:48:00 - [5]

It's a good idea, Askari, but 25% is indeed way to high. Smile
Perhaps instead of gaining 1% in the electronics, engineering, science, research skills, gaining 1% in just a RE and advanced RE skill would be better. That leads to a total of 10% which is much better IMO...

Posted - 2003.08.28 13:36:00 - [6]

I still think that is possibly too high - or the mineral cost should be huge - at least as much as a production run would be....that way each failed attempt would cost big time.

Posted - 2003.08.28 14:10:00 - [7]

Im glad thee are other players about that agree that RE should be almost a black art, and yes I agree, even 10% is probably a bit high.

The way to balance that might be that even a success may have differing degree's of success.

10% chance on a full original
20% chance on a limited run copy
30% chance on a full original, but with negative PE on it
40% chance chance on a limited run copy, but with negative PE on it

the negative PE means even with PE5 and good mineral research you will still get high wastage to simulate you knowing how to manufacture, but not in the best way.

And failure also has differing degrees of failure.

40% chance of nothing
30% chance of loosing all ISK, mineral, trade goods
20% chance of loosing the original item
10% chance of loosing the item and everything else

CCP could maybe add some new fields to an items stats showing the base level of success for REing an item, that could then be altered incase any balancing is needed later, and allow super rare items to stay exactly that... super rare.

I dunno, im just throwing ideas around here, im sure you lot can expand on it better. Very Happy

although i am quite adamant it be a case of luck along with good skills and investment, and that trade goods and minerals play a part to maintain an actual ISK cost along with a heavy time cost (at least 3+ days even for the most basic of items).

Otherwise, you will get players with 2 alts, all with lab ops and RE pumping 10 items each through the grinder every few days... and that would really screw the game.

Anya Stark
Posted - 2003.08.28 15:00:00 - [8]

Another possibility might be getting a varying quality of result even if you're successful. RE on a LiF booster might be successful at 25%, but often give you a BP for Hydrazine, Cold jet or maybe even just an AB1 BP and only rarely give successful full LiF booster BPs.

That'd be like RL anyways. Folks reverse engineering complex systems often are then able to produce something better than what they have the ability to produce already, but very rarely can duplicate the quality of an excellent item item (ie. missile, jet fighter, etc). They often come up with someone similar to, but not quite as good as what they were studying.

Perhaps RE on a CU vapour might yield Dual Diode BPs much more often that XECL or CU vapour BPs? If you wanted to make it crazy random, you could even give them a small chance of coming up with a *superior* item BP, like a 5% chance that successfull RE on an XECL would yield a CU vapour BP and a 1.5% chance that it would yield a Miner II BP :) So researching would have a "table" similar to NPC loot or convoy contents (although hopefully better :)

Pegasus Knights
Posted - 2003.08.29 01:47:00 - [9]

I like the idea of variable outcomes based on the skill rating and random rolls.

And I also agree that the chances of success has to be extremely low. Given the number of players who will be using this skill once it is implemented, the game will be swamped with powerful BPs if this is not handled properly.

Even if the chances of success is set at a maximum of 5% (1% per level?), the mere volume of players who will train on this skill will stack the odds in favor of the players.

Im not sure what the prerequisites are for reverse engineering, but maybe it should also have high prerequisites like level 5 for engineering, electronics, and several skills uunder those skill trees.
After all, reverse engineering should be an elite/specialized skill.

Adding a cost factor in RE will also help balance this IMHO. That way, you dont only have to hoard a lot of the rare loot but also have to pay everytime you attempt to reverse engineer. And everytime you fail the attempt, it stings because you lose both item and some money.

Posted - 2003.08.30 07:21:00 - [10]

Adding a research cost to RE will do nothing but give TTI and other big corps more monopolies. They can throw a billion ISK at a project and not feel it. Reverse Engineering should be one of the things that gives a small corp a chance to actually get good share of the market on a particular item (at least for a while).

A much better way to balance it is TIME. Make reverse engineering take a long time, and have a low chance of success. That way small corps at least have a CHANCE, and even big corps have to CHOOSE what to work on instead of just quickly getting BPs for every top pirate drop in the game thanks to unlimited money.

I also like the idea of getting an "inferior" BP instead of the one you research. Maybe that heavy modulated beam only yields a heavy anode BP... it's still better than a stock gun. Just give a small chance to get the actual heavy modulated BP, a much larger chance to get an anode BP, and a small chance to only get an afocal BP. (Assuming you succeed at all, which shouldn't be easy)

Finally, the RE skill should be readily available at any school, but the requirements should be STEEP. Science 5, certainly, and at least 4 in engineering (maybe 5) and research. Make this a skill for real scientists, not every 2-bit research alt in the galaxy. Very Happy

The Forge Association of Science and Industry
Posted - 2003.08.31 01:31:00 - [11]

So how's the little guy gonna get 10 Gauss 250 prototypes so he can waste 9 trying to RE a BP?

Currently the RE skill gives 10% per level to success and requires science 5. Sounds perfect to me. That's off the Nexus Database.

Posted - 2003.09.01 12:18:00 - [12]

you are all obviuosly scared of reverse engineering. so why don't you get the anal stick remover out and accept reverse engineering for what it is, a wonderfull way around the monopoly of expensive BP's.

Posted - 2003.09.01 13:54:00 - [13]

you are all obviuosly scared of reverse engineering. so why don't you get the anal stick remover out and accept reverse engineering for what it is, a wonderfull way around the monopoly of expensive BP's.

what an exceptionally well prosed first post.
Welcome to the forums.

With what you are suggesting, they might as well scrap all ideas and just put the blueprints on the market at 1 isk each and just let everyone build everything.
Rolling Eyes

Posted - 2003.09.02 10:15:00 - [14]

I agree with retrax.

You should have a max of 50% chance to succeed.
So Level 5 science (takes already some time) and level 5 RE so you have 50% chance.
Maybe make RE a rank 5 skill or something.
Or split up in RE rank 2 level 5 = 25%
and Advanced RE rank 4 level 5 = 50%
10% is way to low, only big corps will succeed and have the money to lose 10 gause guns in reverse engineering. The time shouldn't be to long.
An other options is two RE skills.
one RE for increasing chance to succeed to max 50%
second RE is for decreasing the time to succeed to 50%
both rank 5 skills.
normal time to succed for example 3-5 days.

Balan Nadeer
Murkon Prime Interstellar Productions
Posted - 2003.09.03 18:48:00 - [15]

I think the answer is that reverse enginering should take more than a slot it should also require skill in all fields including the item you are trying to duplicate. Also it should require specialized equipment that would need to be used as resource and a very expensive research budget a the process should take a long time. Another avenue would be to have people just research an item and have them randomly discover improved versions once again require the previously mentioned items.

Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.09.03 19:39:00 - [16]

Lvl 5 Science

And Lvl 5 in the skill the item-category the item belongs to.

Just like Advanced Researching.


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