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Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.30 10:26:00 - [151]
 

Ah, such posts always remind me to point out that the apoc has a WAY too high grid compared to the other lvl2 BS RazzWink

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 15:36:00 - [152]
 

not really, i just have six reactor control units on it. :)

total grid 31,288. Twisted Evil

Quiz
Caldari
Cirrius Technologies
Posted - 2003.08.30 16:08:00 - [153]
 

You DO know that you will make more damage with just 4 guns and damage modifiers in the low slots than equipping 8 guns without any modifiers at all?

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.30 16:47:00 - [154]
 

Quote:
not really, i just have six reactor control units on it. :)

total grid 31,288. Twisted Evil


Figured that already, even the apoc can't have as much with its grid.

A mega would have 25k with 6 reactors, though. Either the apoc needs a nerf or the mega needs some love, though. Both ships are similar, but the mega is worse than the apoc in almost all categorys. It's only strenght are 1000 more dronebay *cough*

Lartfor
Gallente
Internet Tough Guys Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 16:51:00 - [155]
 

Quote:


Figured that already, even the apoc can't have as much with its grid.

A mega would have 25k with 6 reactors, though. Either the apoc needs a nerf or the mega needs some love, though. Both ships are similar, but the mega is worse than the apoc in almost all categorys. It's only strenght are 1000 more dronebay *cough*


1000 more grid and 200 more shields would acomplish this perfectly.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.30 17:06:00 - [156]
 

Yes, 13-13.5k grid would be perfectly for the mega.

200+ shields - could be an idea. The high grid and armor of the amarr cruisers is somewhat balanced by them having a lower shield than all other cruisers, this is not given with the amarr BS. (Yes, the apoc has the lowest lvl2 BS shield, but thats not = "the lowest shield of all BS" - it shares the lowest shield with the mega.)

Still, I would rather have a 5th med slot than 200 more shield, but that would probably overpower the mega slightly Wink

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.30 21:21:00 - [157]
 

quiz, i did that with my tachyon beams, 4x tachyon 6x extruded heatsink. however, i dont have *ANY* hybrid damage modifiers, and i am bored out of my skull because there is nothing to do in eve. thus, 8x 425mm railgun it is.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 10:30:00 - [158]
 

Quote:
i would say torpedos would be comfortable at 600 damage...


Actually, I think that torps should be in the 1200 to 2000 range if their size, speed, and cost stay the same.
Torps are VERY easy to shoot down. I did some testing with a corp mate - I filled up on defenders in 2 bays, he fired 2 bays of torps at me at around 20km.
Of the 12 he fired, only 2 got past the defenders and actually hit me. And in a puny Caracal, those 2 did not even take down my shields.
How many shots from your 1400 mm projectile or 425 rail or Tachyon laser get intercepted?

John Zeppe
Amarr
Posted - 2003.08.31 12:55:00 - [159]
 

Yes yes, very easy.
1) Defenders? No thanks.
2) Smartbombs? You gotta be kidding me. 180 CPU, 1 highslot, 1250MW?!
3) Autotargeter + 2-3 sensor boosters so you can use your turrets? No way, slot wasting.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.31 15:17:00 - [160]
 

"3) Autotargeter + 2-3 sensor boosters so you can use your turrets? No way, slot wasting."

... Why is having to put on shield hardeners to protect oneself from turret fire considered normal and natural, but having possibly to fit anti-missile defense system 'the waste of slots'?..

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.31 18:22:00 - [161]
 

Well, SH work against missle damage as well.

Still, his points are not really valid.

1.) Why no defenders? Because you can mount less guns then? Well, be my guest, fill your ship with guns until it's bursting, but don't whine if someone with missles kills you.

Sure, there are ships with no launcher slots, but there you can use

2.) smartbombs - and there are some with less grid as well, btw. Their timing will be cruicial, though, especially since missles are much faster now. Perhpas the activation time of SB has to be reduced somewhat (5 secs?) to balance them against the new missle speed.

Lartfor
Gallente
Internet Tough Guys Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 19:58:00 - [162]
 

Quote:

Perhpas the activation time of SB has to be reduced somewhat (5 secs?) to balance them against the new missle speed.


I dont think its needed, people will eventually learn when to turn them on, like if the missle is 10k away, click it on. And it should go off when the missle comes into range of the SB.

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.31 20:34:00 - [163]
 

no, i think the timing is right. i wouldnt want a proximity based smartbomb... thats just stupid. people could mount 3 or 4 of them and just have them vape all incoming torpedos. these things already have too many downfalls, dont give them another.

Mary Anne
Viziam
Posted - 2003.08.31 22:41:00 - [164]
 

Quote:
Quote:
TomB, I got zero understanding on your approach.


Tier 2 battleships are right now (on Tranquility) not worth buying. The tier 1's can all perform just as well as the tier 2's (if not better in some cases) at a very reduced price. These changes are very much needed and anyone who is flying a battleship of any kind will readily agree. How's that for understanding?


Everyone knew it upfront. There is no need to change something, where all knew exactly what they get. Also your tier1 - tier 2 argument implies superiority in general of tier 2 battleships over tier 1 battleships.

I cant find the passage telling me this about tier 1 vs tier 2 neither in manual, nor in help, nor on eve-online.com. Did i miss something?

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.01 05:47:00 - [165]
 

Quote:
Everyone knew it upfront. There is no need to change something, where all knew exactly what they get. Also your tier1 - tier 2 argument implies superiority in general of tier 2 battleships over tier 1 battleships.

I cant find the passage telling me this about tier 1 vs tier 2 neither in manual, nor in help, nor on eve-online.com. Did i miss something?


You don't really believe your own argument, od you? If yes, you have my pity for being extremly shortsighted.

You could say that as well for the dual scout 425, do dig out that dead horse again. Everyone knew they were too good, everyone could get them, so why bother balancing them? Rrrright.

ATM - on tranq - lvl1 BS (you might have seen that some BS require lvl1 to be low and others lvl2 in the BS skill, that is the tier thingy people are speaking of) are better than lvl2 BS, while lvl2 BS are more expensive than lvl1 BS -> Imbalance.

If you think that balancing things is a bad idea, well, don't let the door catch you on your way out.

John Zeppe
Amarr
Posted - 2003.09.01 11:49:00 - [166]
 

Quote:
W
1.) Why no defenders? Because you can mount less guns then? Well, be my guest, fill your ship with guns until it's bursting, but don't whine if someone with missles kills you.
Sure, there are ships with no launcher slots, but there you can use

2.) smartbombs - and there are some with less grid as well, btw. Their timing will be cruicial, though, especially since missles are much faster now. Perhpas the activation time of SB has to be reduced somewhat (5 secs?) to balance them against the new missle speed.

1) Because if you're in a raven, you'd want your launchers for offense, not 2-3 for defense (i.e. defender missiles). On any other ship with 2 or less launchers you cannot use them properly.

2) Yes, but as far as I know, medium or smaller smartbombs cannot kill torpedos since their HP is higher than the smartbombs damage, correct? In that case you need a large SB.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.01 14:10:00 - [167]
 

1.) Why? It will be in exactly the same situation as other ships. Will it sacrifice some of it's damage potential in order to protect itself against missle or will it go for max damage with the danger of being killed by a misslespammer.
There's no difference between a raven using two missleslots with defender or a apoc using two turretslots for them.

2.) A ship with 2 launchers with defenders won't be ale to kill all incoming missles from a ship with 5-6 launchers firing - but it doesn't needs to either. It just needs to kill enough missles so it will make more damage to the missle ship than the missle ship will deal to it.

PirateNightmare
Posted - 2003.09.01 20:12:00 - [168]
 

TomB, don't you think it's a little unfair that megathron and tempest get 100 cpu boost, and apocalypse only gets 50? That means that they would be able to fit all their equipment without sacrificing a low slot for photonic cpu, but apoc would have to use one.Sad

Daan
Raven Cartel
Posted - 2003.09.01 20:22:00 - [169]
 

Quote:
TomB, don't you think it's a little unfair that megathron and tempest get 100 cpu boost, and apocalypse only gets 50? That means that they would be able to fit all their equipment without sacrificing a low slot for photonic cpu, but apoc would have to use one.Sad


Most of the time they still need a cpu.

About the mega: isnt it a bit of a joke that it has less drones space than a typhoon?

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.01 20:37:00 - [170]
 

Yes, most mega and tempest outfits still need a enhancer. You can equip them that way that they don't need one, but those outfits are not really effective.

And even if the mega would have gotten +200 cpu bonus the apoc would still be better. The apoc can fit 1 cpu enhancer and would have around as much cpu, but the mega needs to fit 2 reactor controls and still has less grid than the apoc.
If lasers would have a bigger grid need than rail that would be ok, but that haven't.

Even with the current upgrades, the mega is still a lot worse than the apoc.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.01 22:34:00 - [171]
 

Lasers just got changed - they need more grid. Looks like you got your wish.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.02 07:54:00 - [172]
 

Quote:
Lasers just got changed - they need more grid. Looks like you got your wish.


Sure, blame it on me Razz

Isomerone
Posted - 2003.09.02 08:52:00 - [173]
 

The Apoc needs the most Megacyte of any ship but a wide margin; it should be the best. Costing 10mil less than an apoc should makes it a weaker ship.

Mary Anne
Viziam
Posted - 2003.09.02 10:35:00 - [174]
 

Quote:

You don't really believe your own argument, od you? If yes, you have my pity for being extremly shortsighted.


If you need a flamefest you can have it, else stop your ignorant and arrogant attitude.

Quote:

You could say that as well for the dual scout 425, do dig out that dead horse again. Everyone knew they were too good, everyone could get them, so why bother balancing them? Rrrright.


Exactly. To balance it, CCP could have simply introduced tech 2 later on and live with the current imbalance. Changing a running system is imho stupid - nothing to count on for players, everything changes time and time again. Invests spoiled and so on.

Lemme guess, you decided for a low end or gimped battleship or weapon line and cant await to get a boost on your poor choice? TomB may fall for it - but not me. The greed of your kind destroys a game.

Quote:
ATM - on tranq - lvl1 BS (you might have seen that some BS require lvl1 to be low and others lvl2 in the BS skill, that is the tier thingy people are speaking of) are better than lvl2 BS, while lvl2 BS are more expensive than lvl1 BS -> Imbalance.


Better and worse ship? You sir got no clue. There is more than 1vs1 PvP. Which is apparently the only thing you can think of. Again for your kind: battleships offer different options in different situations where they are good at. So in general Apoc > Armageddon, but in 1vs1 PvP Arma > Apoc. Same for the other battleships. Give it a try - ratonal thinking helps.

Quote:

If you think that balancing things is a bad idea, well, don't let the door catch you on your way out.


Learn reading. That last remark just makes you look as stupid as you are. Laughing

Rayvenous
Amarr
Die Geistig Gestuerzten
Posted - 2003.09.02 11:58:00 - [175]
 

Quote:

Exactly. To balance it, CCP could have simply introduced tech 2 later on and live with the current imbalance. Changing a running system is imho stupid - nothing to count on for players, everything changes time and time again. Invests spoiled and so on.



I play MMOGs since UO got introduced ... i dunno how many years that is Wink

And i didnīt played a single game that where like "ohh thats unbalanced/wrong but heck we keep it"

Balance is a major problem and it will never be solved completly, so expect more changes in the coming months. If you arenīt able to life with it i would suggest to stop playing MMOGs at all since it will happen to you again, again, again ...

Ok, i admit that it might hurt sometimes when major changes get introduced, but hey we just need to work out a little new fitting setup, try some other/new tactics and in a few weeks it will be normal again till the next impact comes this way.

MMOGs in general life from it constant changings/development, and i like it Wink

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.02 12:02:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 12:04:21
Quote:
Exactly. To balance it, CCP could have simply introduced tech 2 later on and live with the current imbalance. Changing a running system is imho stupid - nothing to count on for players, everything changes time and time again. Invests spoiled and so on.


Not changing it is stupid. They key for mmorpgs is diversity - if everything is the same (which it WILL be if one item is too strong - just take a look which indys are used most if you want prove for that) it get's boring and predictable.

The key is to adapt for changes. I used dual 425 scouts when they were nerfed. So? I changed my tactics. My corp was mining rare ores heavily in empire space when they moved those to the rim. So? We moved, too. If you want a static universe play a SP game.

Nevermind that with the argument you can argue against new techlevels as well - because those will have exactly the same effect.

Quote:
Lemme guess, you decided for a low end or gimped battleship or weapon line and cant await to get a boost on your poor choice? TomB may fall for it - but not me. The greed of your kind destroys a game.


Always interesting how people always assume one is using the items they try to defend. FYI, I have currently a Dominix and a Scorp, mainly because I saw long ago that lvl2 BS are not worth it atm for their price.

Believe it or not, some people can be objective and don't try to lobby their own items.

Quote:
Better and worse ship? You sir got no clue. There is more than 1vs1 PvP. Which is apparently the only thing you can think of. Again for your kind: battleships offer different options in different situations where they are good at. So in general Apoc > Armageddon, but in 1vs1 PvP Arma > Apoc. Same for the other battleships. Give it a try - ratonal thinking helps.


With all due respect: you have no clue. It's exactly the other way around. With the current chaos changes, mind you, atm on tranq a arma is better than a apoc in both areas.

In fleet battles it's best if you have specialized teams, a BB to disable/weaken the target and a arma as damage dealer.
WHile in a 1v1 situation a apoc will beat a arma, since it can use one med slot more, which can be *very* important in a 1v1 battle.

Paddyman
This will look bad on your killboard
Capital Storm
Posted - 2003.09.02 15:17:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Paddyman on 02/09/2003 19:45:55
TomB, One thing you might like to look at about the scorp is the fact that it is barley any bigger the my Moa crusier, its mass is much less than other BattleShips, its new and hi-tec with 5 engines on its back but for all this its not as fast or as agile as it should be, any chance you could remedy this.

also its suppose to be the most hi tech electronic ship there is but it has a really bad lock on time and weak sensors for its purpose, how bout better lock on time and sensor strength

Adis
Caldari
Xenotech Federation and Industries
Posted - 2003.09.02 18:18:00 - [178]
 

I think the problem here is that the lvl1 battleships have too many low slots. If we lower the amount of dmg mods that can be equipped on them, then their dmg will be equivalent to their price.

Krenshaw
Universal Parcel Service
Posted - 2003.09.02 19:22:00 - [179]
 

Previously posted:

Also all battleships are way too cheap. It's ridiculous that so many people are using them. Frigates are nothing more then a steppingstone to the cruiser after which they become useless. And from the cruiser to battleship may last a bit longer eventually everybody will get there.


I would have to say I don't agree that frigates are useless. If you are involved in PVP with another battleship and two of your corpmates jump in in kestrels right along side you firing four cruise missles each it can definetely tip the balance. If only one of the kestrels manages to get a reload in before he dies thats an additional 4 missles headed for you. You better hope your mounting an EM resist or those paradise are gonna hurt. Frigates have thier place and it will become more apparent as the game progresses.

Ka'loor
Amarr
Die Argonen
Posted - 2003.09.02 22:10:00 - [180]
 

Frigates are the best work/money ship out there, you can use frigates, when you dont want to lose a cruiser, plus figates are the best support vessels out there, EW and Missles dont neccesarily need big ships to work.


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