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Andreask14
Raptus Regaliter
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.01.10 01:38:00 - [1]
 

I read this forum for quite a while and there were numerous threads were people complained that missiles,meaning self-propelled weapons fired from launchers, are too strong in general or in their particular case.

Yes, there have been missiles nerfs and there are defenders and smart-bombs, which some people think of as a last ditch defence, because they can be out-witted, so to speak.

I thought of other space-games and wondered what pilots do against being hit by missiles in these games, apart from totally evading the hit by maneuvering of course. Also, i thought that tanking right as one of few vaible options is a, for sure, a big part of this game, but doesnt suffice when dealing with the diverse variety of missiles. Also, many ships are not able to mount defender missiles, nor are they able to tank missile attacks from ships of the same level, which puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
Feel free to prove me wrong about that last statement.

Finally, i came to a conclusion.

In most other space-games you can deploy some kind of counter-measure against missiles that works like a FLARE, which actual planes use to confuse missile tracking.

EvE is lacking such a device at the moment and i deem it a useful, and actually badly needed, addition.

So here is my proposal:

Name: AMCM (Anti-Missile-Counter-Measure)
Fitting: Low, little energygrid use, little more cpu use, uses really little energy to activate
Charges: Counter-Measure-Flares dispensables
Requirement: The appropriate AMCM-Skill

There would be a analog module for every ship-tier of course, like AMCM for Frigs, Cruisers and so on. Now, whenever you are suspecting an incoming missile to hit you, you keep this device on auto-repeat and it will eject one flare every 3 seconds from your ship. This Flare will have a percentage modifier, determing if the tracking of the enemy missile is spoofed or not. If the missile is spoofed, it would completely miss you.

The higher the level of the skill, the better you chance at the spoofing would become and/or the faster the flares would be ejected. Tech 2 versions of this device would carry more flares, launch faster, have better spoofing.

If you wouuld really want to go overboard with this thing, there would be specialized AMCM against every kind of missile, enableing you to counter certain attacks with a higher percentaege of success.

The AMCM would enable pilots to mount a specific defence against missiles, available at low costs. To not weaken missiles to much, one would simply adjust the rate of fire and efficiency of this device.




Audrea
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.10 02:14:00 - [2]
 

Thats the best idea about solving this issue I heard Cool
Hope the devs comment what they think of this....

Argy
Posted - 2006.01.10 02:30:00 - [3]
 

Thats an orignaly idea

also, along the same lines, you could have specific jamming devices just for missiles, which would have the same effect on them, just using different name. This also is a common thing today, and more realistic in space, also looks better than constantly shooting out flares. one could run a constant jamming signal from the ship (probably a low cap, normal EW module) that could cause missiles to go awry. Then you have the problem of giving different missiles different radar strength, etc...makes it more interesting but a little more complicated than neccessary.

nutbar
Caldari
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
Posted - 2006.01.10 02:36:00 - [4]
 

I like it. Now that you mention the idea, I can't understand why something like this doesn't already exist!

Ayla Vanir
Caldari
InterSys
Posted - 2006.01.10 04:52:00 - [5]
 

Couple of questions:

1) Is there a problem with missle related game balance again?

2) Can you use Defenders as flares? Similar effect as far as I can see - but couldn't they just copy/paste a new launcher, call it Chaff/Flare launcher, and then copy/paste Defender missles and call them Chaff (counters EM based targeting) or Flares (counters heat seekers)? Cloaking counters optical tracking systems.

3) Can you jam a missle boat today?


Macro Slasher
Posted - 2006.01.10 10:44:00 - [6]
 

You got defenders indeed. They look different on the graphics side but the function is similar.

Juno Rex
Posted - 2006.01.10 14:13:00 - [7]
 

whould this system also work to confuse the aim of the turrets? It's a good idea but I belive we shouldn't always do everything to make the missiles as useless as possible.

Arouen
Posted - 2006.01.10 14:40:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Arouen on 10/01/2006 14:42:25
Yes, it would be great addition to the game, especially that there is great disadvantage of Gallente ships (lack of launcher points) over other race's ships. I think that the maximum chance of missing the target should be about 50-60%, although it should be skill based (as you've stated).

Regards

Filan
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.10 14:58:00 - [9]
 

then you need more then one missle type, Radar and Heat Seaking. FOFs are clearly Sidewinders or IR missles as they cant be jammed.

Maabuss
Caldari
Exiles of Chaos
Posted - 2006.01.10 17:32:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Maabuss on 10/01/2006 17:35:04
I'm not a big fan of this Idea. there have been too many Missile Nerfs already, the last thing that I and many others would want is for the missiles to be screwed over any worse than they already have been. Sure, the missiles never miss, but, u have to remember, the year is set in the 22,000's+ and if Guidance Technology has advanced along with all their other Technology, then there is no possible way to fool the guidance systems on a Missile unless u use an EMP device to scramble the electronic systems, which would essentially be the same as destroying the missile with defenders or a Smartbomb.

Andreask14
Raptus Regaliter
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.01.11 00:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Maabuss
Edited by: Maabuss on 10/01/2006 17:35:04
Sure, the missiles never miss, but, u have to remember, the year is set in the 22,000's+ and if Guidance Technology has advanced along with all their other Technology, then there is no possible way to fool the guidance systems on a Missile unless u use an EMP device to scramble the electronic systems, which would essentially be the same as destroying the missile with defenders or a Smartbomb.


I am personally of the opinion that EvE is not so much about reality or plausible science-fiction than about good gameplay.

I have illustrated why my suggestion would improve gameplay with my first post.

J Dubbs
Posted - 2006.01.11 00:44:00 - [12]
 

this should be a mid slot, an equivilent of the tracking disruptor.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2006.01.11 01:07:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Andreask14
Originally by: Maabuss
Edited by: Maabuss on 10/01/2006 17:35:04
Sure, the missiles never miss, but, u have to remember, the year is set in the 22,000's+ and if Guidance Technology has advanced along with all their other Technology, then there is no possible way to fool the guidance systems on a Missile unless u use an EMP device to scramble the electronic systems, which would essentially be the same as destroying the missile with defenders or a Smartbomb.


I am personally of the opinion that EvE is not so much about reality or plausible science-fiction than about good gameplay.

I have illustrated why my suggestion would improve gameplay with my first post.


Defenders and smartbombs exist, they just need fixing. Therefore you are clueless.

Andreask14
Raptus Regaliter
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.01.11 12:08:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: J Dubbs
this should be a mid slot, an equivilent of the tracking disruptor.


Thats right! Actually i didnt think of the tracking disruptor being in the same category, but now that you mention it.

Also, as i have explained already, i dont think that Defenders and/or Smartbombs are suited to provide anti-missile defence for all available ships.
The reason is that some ships cant mount defenders because of no launcher slots, smart bombs are too ineffective, and will always be that way unless a specific anti-missile smart-bomb is introduced, and there are even ships which cant mount either of the two, because they would lose their intended function when spending CPU, GRID and SLOTS on such ineffective defence.

Smartbombs and defenders also dont qualify as anti-missile, because a good pilot can out-maneuver them with his missile attacks, as i have mentioned before.


Arouen
Posted - 2006.01.11 14:02:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Maabuss
Edited by: Maabuss on 10/01/2006 17:35:04
I'm not a big fan of this Idea. there have been too many Missile Nerfs already, the last thing that I and many others would want is for the missiles to be screwed over any worse than they already have been. Sure, the missiles never miss, but, u have to remember, the year is set in the 22,000's+ and if Guidance Technology has advanced along with all their other Technology, then there is no possible way to fool the guidance systems on a Missile unless u use an EMP device to scramble the electronic systems, which would essentially be the same as destroying the missile with defenders or a Smartbomb.


Please, try to understand that there's actualy no missile countermeasures for most of gallente ships. We certainly need some.

Regards

Britannica
Caldari
Legion of Ghost
Posted - 2006.01.11 14:55:00 - [16]
 

ECM and sensor dampners can be effective counter measures against most missiles. FoF are the only missiles with a garanteed hit against a ship using EW, so all that may be needed here is a module to fool FoF missiles. if you add something like this to affect all missiles then tracking disrupters have to be made much more effective to balance things out

Serendipity007
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.01.11 15:42:00 - [17]
 

/agree

My Domi needs anti-missile defense. Missile jammer, or maybe even an anti-missile gun. High-slot takes ammo.

Elfaen Ethenwe
Infusion.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.01.11 16:12:00 - [18]
 

oooohhh missiles are so good why do you all fly gun ships ?

Andreask14
Raptus Regaliter
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.01.12 13:13:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: El**** Ethenwe
oooohhh missiles are so good why do you all fly gun ships ?


In fact, the Raven, well suited to missile combat, is the most flown battleship.
Reference: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=278031

This is at least an indication that an AMCM is due to be implemented.

Britannica
Caldari
Legion of Ghost
Posted - 2006.01.12 14:03:00 - [20]
 

the raven is a good PvP battleship only because it takes so little SP to make it good compared to other battleships, but in long term combat the apoc and even the mega can easily beat a raven

just because a missile always hits doesnt mean they are better, I have a very good amount of SP in missiles and shield skills, I can still loose missile boats to gun boats who either fit multiple damage mods + half decent tank or use ECM to break my lock on them. in my gaming experiance guns and missiles are balanced a mod to nerf missiles even more is not needed at this time unless guns get nerfed as well

Andreask14
Raptus Regaliter
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.01.14 11:46:00 - [21]
 

Well, if there really would be the need to nerf guns, when you add an active module, taking up a slot, costing ammo, money, energy grid etc. against missiles, though these exist against guns already in the form of tracking disruptors, there is a simply solution.

Make the AMCM high-slot, taking away one turret, et voila, guns nerfed. You see, my primary intend for the AMCM was the ability to make it mountable on ships which cant mount Defenders (=have no missile slots)and which are somewhat constrained concerning smart bombes, like destroyers, frigs and the low-tech cruisers.

oneeye crusader
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.14 12:13:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: oneeye crusader on 14/01/2006 12:13:31
A couple of points here.

> someone mentioned that EVE is so far in the future that missles that dont miss are plausable. If the seeker technology advances so to would a countermesure dont you think? look at the real world aircraft technology. stealthy planes have the upper hand for a few years then someone finds a way to detect them, then vola technology is equal again.

> I belive that a EMP field or Laser would be suit this AMCM role. If its a 'IR' seeker they can be burnt out by laser and radar missiles would be weak to a EM pulse.

Finnaly if we already have EW drones why not make it a drones job to try and distract missles that way we dont need a new mod.

ASquirrel
Posted - 2006.01.14 22:47:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: ASquirrel on 14/01/2006 22:47:32
Excuse the whining, but simply put, I cannot agree with another mod that counteracts missiles.

Both Turret and Missile platforms can be target jammed.

FoF missiles are a good way to get blown shipless by Concord, so they don't count, since I assume you're all empire-hugging turret users.

Turrets can fall prey to tracking disruptors, yes, but with the new stacking system it's possible to negate all tracking disruptor effects with two tracking comps. Missiles don't get a mod that improves the chances it'll survive a SB or a defender.

Missiles don't get rediculous wrecking shots.

There is no such thing as a medslot item for missile RoF, damage, any equivalent of tracking, etc.

There is less variety of missile implants, and they're FAR more expensive.

Anybody with 8m in gunnery support skills can pick up any turret platform in the game, 85% or more of the ships in Eve are designed for use with some form of turret. Missile users cam pick from 5; the Kestrel, Caracal, Raven, Manticore, Cerberus. Ships such as the Crow, the Flycatcher, and the Nighthawk are much more useful serving their role, despite having missile bonuses and a heavy loadout. No other ships (excluding faction) are capable of efficiently making use of missile skills.

Missiles can't take advantage of a massive sig radius (such as a ship with an MWD) if they can't catch it. This does not seem to be the case with turrets, not to mention turrets boosted by a tracking comp.

Missile platforms can't snipe from 200km, if they can even hit that far. even at 50km, most ships just warp out. You have to be within 400m for anything to even look like an instant hit after lock with missiles, and when gate camping without a tackler, is impossible. I have never been ganked by a missile ship, even after encounters without instant bookmarks.

Quityerwhinin.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.01.14 23:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Macro Slasher
You got defenders indeed. They look different on the graphics side but the function is similar.


With the minor issue that they usually don't work. But hey.


 

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