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blankseplocked Tech level 2 Corporations - BANKS!
 
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Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 00:40:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 19:47:47
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 00:50:18
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 00:43:56
Alright, I just thought of something great, tech level 2 Corporations - Banks.

Introduction - EVE is a player driven economy, besides this, EVE is all about ISK and power, or am I wrong? WELL, Banks would bring Money and Power TOGETHER in a way that CORPORATIONS COULDN'T! In addition to this, I find it odd that a game that places so much focus on wealth, lacks a Banking system, IMO one of the most important parts of Wealth.

How will they work - Alright, Banks are at their most basic level corps, but with a few minor changes. Banks, have the ability to set up "Banking Offices" in stations, where players get to make deposits to their accounts, and *small* withdrawals. Their accounts will work similar to real world banks, you deposit money, and it gains interest, in return, bankers are allowed to loan money away to normal corporations and individual players, to be payed back with interest.

To take out a loan, you must send an application to the bank, with the amount of money you would like to take a loan out for, and the minimum amount of time to fully pay back the loan. A staff member of the Bank then sets the (monthly)interest rate and the max amount of time you have to pay back the loan, or they can refuse your application(there should be a credit history tab or something to help the decision process along, just like in the real world). If they accept it, and you accept their terms, you get the ISK transfered to your wallet to use as you please, as long as you pay it back. If you dont pay it back, you get flagged in all sec levels and will be destroyed... repeatedly, until you have payed back your debt, or can work out a deal with the Bank. To stop people from cheating and taking advantage of this, the money you took out MUST be payed back before you can delete the alt that took it out, and your other characters/alts will become flagged as well, until you have payed back the debt. You will not be able to "send money" to another player either until the debt is gone, and to make sure you simply cant take the ISK, buy something from a friend through the market for the full amount of ISK, and get your account canceled and start a new one, the stuff you buy with the money is partially owned by the bank, and will be reposessed and returned to the player who it was bought from and the money that the seller made from the loaned money will be sent back by the bank, no matter who owns it(the item, not the ISK). Any item that is partially owned by the bank will be clearly marked as being so, and the player will be marked as "In Debt" so when they attempt to buy something from the market, the item they want to buy is taken off the market, and a message sent to the seller that the buyer is in debt, if they accept the transaction, then the seller gets the cash and the buyer gets the item. This way, everything is done in safety and balance, and it is a lose - lose situation if you try to cheat.

And to make sure that the BANKERS cant cheat, if the bank closes while its in debt(in other words, it owes players cash....), everything the bank and the staff of the bank had(not normal members, the ones with titles) will be reposessed by the CONCORDE of banks, liquidated and given back in an equal sum to each player that had invested in that bank. If a sufficient amount of money cannot be made from the titled members(I consider sufficient to be 3/4 of the money that was invested....) and other assets and holdings etc., then stuff will be reposessed from the normal members until 3/4 can be paid back. This will make players choose their banks wisely(you cant have your money in more than one bank), good interest rates will be an attractive option, but security of the money will play an important role since it is possible to LOSE money.

See Part2-War against Bank

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 01:03:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 01:03:12
How will this encourage PvP? - It will, because like industrial america at the turn of the 20th century(early 1900s...) banks will have power, a lot of it. A large bank, will essentially control EVE, and if they get to greedy, well then the player base will have to do something about it. This will cause alliances to be forged and broken in an attempt to stop the corruption. Players will have to band together if they hope to stop the powerful machine that is a bank. Because besides lending money to other players, the titled staff will have access to some of this money, and thus I would expect would have the ability to field a very formidable Fleet. I could see an extremely wealthy bank fielding more titans than the average corp/alliance could.


Fighting against a Bank - Banks will store all their money, and thus the very heart and core of a bank in a very special player owned station that can only be set up by banks. This will be known as a Treasury Station or a Vault Station. It will be formidable in its own right, since it has to protect all the money of those that invest it with them. When war is declared against a bank, no fee is needed to be paid to COCORDE, instead it will drag on until all parties involved withdraw(basically the attackers call it quits), their is an agreement between the bank and the parties involved, or the Bank is destroyed entirely. How does that last sentence tie in with the vaults/ treasury stations? This is how: to destroy a bank, the treasury/ vault must be destroyed entirely, once this is done, the CONCORDE bank (needs a name) thing will do its job and make sure everything that is left gets split up equally. Besides that, a nice reward will be given to the players present at the destruction of the bank, loot containers, some filled with VERY nice sums of ISK in it, so all that hard work will pay off... assuming you can destroy the banks powerful defenses....

While war is declared on a bank, members cannot leave, unless a fee is paid(it should be in the several millions range, just to keep things fair, this way the player doesnt have to PvP, but they cant run with all the nice stuff they got from the bank, without paying back some), but new players may join. In addition, players with their money in the bank(note that members in most cases refers to "corp" members, and that players in most cases refers to people who invest their money in that bank) will not be able to make a full withdrawal of their money from the bank, this way they cant run in an effort to save their money, and make the Bank go bankrupt.

The Cut throat world of Banking - So far I have talked about corps and the citizens of Eve vs. Banks, but not Banks vs. Banks. Banks can go to war against other banks under the same conditions that corps do, with the exception that a LARGE fee(larger than the current war fee) must be paid, but no time restriction will be placed. The chance to go to war against another bank will be appealing, since destroying the bank means eliminating the competition. Wars between banks however wil be fought on two fronts - economic and political. The economic aspect is basically how much money the bank can pull in, and how low they can get their interest rates to do this. This isnt exactly "war" bought I see it as a fight. The political aspect of it, is an actual war which I have already spoken of, and dont need to repeat myself on. Banks will also be able to go to war with each other under the current war conditions, this will be the most comment war conditions since they are the cheapest, but the vaults/ treasury will have immunity to attack during this kind of war, but other bank holding will not, so fights for sovereignity and such will be common, and the banks will lose POS's and outposts that they have(most likely, unless the war doesnt actually cause destruction of something(that is lame...)).

See part 3 - ANYTHING else I should know?

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 01:16:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 01:15:56
Sounds Great, so where do I sign up for my own Bank? - WOAH! Hold on there tiger, you got a long ways of training before ou can set up a decent bank. To be able to even set one up, you must train all Corporation Management and Trade Skills to level 5. After that you have begin training the new skill set: Bank Management, this will function in much the same way as the Corporation Management, but Banks will be able to have even more players than a corporation. Corporations cannot make use of bonuses gained from the Bank Management skills, but the opposite is possible. In addition, a player cannot be the CEO/ member of both a bank and a corporation, and as such, will either have to leave the corp, or disband it or whatever to be able to start a Bank. Alliances between corporations and banks will be possible,but they will be on a limited level, with certain conditions(war declared against a bank will not effect the corporation, unless they choose to come to the aid of the Bank, which means that should the Bank be destroyed, the corporation will become disbanded). Alliances between banks is totally IMPOSSIBLE, because this is going against the principles of competing for money!

Ok, still sounds good, anything else I should know? - Nope... except that you become a mindless Banker zombie if you join one.... just kidding! Just remember, have fun with it!

Roddic
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.12.01 02:05:00 - [4]
 

whats this got to do with corps.....

id think an idea like this is fully in the realm of trade

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 02:31:00 - [5]
 

What do you mean "What does this have to do with corps"? DId you even BOTHER TO READ THE POSTS?

Seraph Demon
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.12.01 03:52:00 - [6]
 

Chaos, I'll say up front, I didn't read all that you wrote, you have alot to learn about expressing your ideas succinctly.

That said, banks would be an interesting addition to the game, but how will a player run bank differ from the EVE central bank that handles all of our isk accounts already? A player bank could give out loans (this I think would be a good thing), but it may be fallible in the way it handles its money, and loose everything, or worse, it could be going along fine until the CEO decides he wants a different taste of EVE and takes all the money that everyone dropped in it for himself.

It's a tough sell, especially when you consider that players represent pilots, and I can't really envision how a pilot would make use of his piloting skills as a banker... Anyway, chances are you already addressed these concerns, but I hope you reply in a much shorter and less prosaic form, exploring the idea you have.

Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.12.01 06:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 01:15:56
Sounds Great, so where do I sign up for my own Bank? - WOAH! Hold on there tiger, you got a long ways of training before ou can set up a decent bank. To be able to even set one up, you must train all Corporation Management and Trade Skills to level 5. After that you have begin training the new skill set: Bank Management, this will function in much the same way as the Corporation Management, but Banks will be able to have even more players than a corporation. Corporations cannot make use of bonuses gained from the Bank Management skills, but the opposite is possible. In addition, a player cannot be the CEO/ member of both a bank and a corporation, and as such, will either have to leave the corp, or disband it or whatever to be able to start a Bank. Alliances between corporations and banks will be possible,but they will be on a limited level, with certain conditions(war declared against a bank will not effect the corporation, unless they choose to come to the aid of the Bank, which means that should the Bank be destroyed, the corporation will become disbanded). Alliances between banks is totally IMPOSSIBLE, because this is going against the principles of competing for money!

Ok, still sounds good, anything else I should know? - Nope... except that you become a mindless Banker zombie if you join one.... just kidding! Just remember, have fun with it!



If EVE were to add such foul symbols of capitalism within their game, as "banks" or Financial institutions... then, on top of lvl 5 skills across the board (to include ships too, becuase think armoured vehicles in real life), make it even MORE difficult. Reflecting on REAL life requirements to open a bank or credit union, the institution or organization must have a HUGE cash pile. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's Federal Law in the United States that to start a bank there must be at least 10 million dollars in it's reserve at all times.

I would suggest, that in order to create a Bank in EVE... that reserve value be in the range of 100 to 200 billion ISK, or something equivalently out of range of most people/corporations/organizations. That's not to build to BANK..... that's AFTER everything has been built, that's how much ISK must be present in it's coffers. So the amount of wealth that must be presented should include this fact, along with everything that is required to build and equip the stations/vaults/security and support/trading fleet et al. Very very difficult to accomplish, just like in real life.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 19:50:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 20:31:20
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 20:03:58
... why is captialism bad? IF you think capitalism is evil, I hate to tell you this, but you are playing a game about capitalism, and big business under a free economics system.

Anyway, as for responding in a short way... I cant, to much to say, to much to explain, but I have divided the first post into smaller paragraphs so it doesnt seem to be so much...

But I have addressed what a pilot is good for as a banker. A bank is essentially just a corporation, that deals with the players money, and in some sense has more power than a corporation does, but it does have its downsides(everything in moderation...)

As for the minimum for keeping the bank open, Yes, I think that will be a good idea, although that much does seem a bit extreme... 300 - 500 MILLION (at MOST 10 billion...)seems more reasonable, this way there will ACTUALLY BE SOME BANKS in EVE... This also ensures that there can be smaller "family owned" mom 'n' pop banks.However, I do think that new banks should be given say a one month period of time to get the reserve up to that point, or they have to disband. This way they have a chance to build up some ISK instead of having to get it done beforehand(which I see as largely impossible).

As for the bank staff being able to touch other peoples money and run with it, I already covered that although there are loopholes.

To remedy this, the only money that the staff can touch is the surplus of the bank. The surplus is defined as all money in the bank, which hasnt been put there by a player wishing to make interest and keep his ISK safe. In other words, the bank staff cant take any money for their own use, that isnt made off of loans, and taxes. Bank taxes would be a small fee (1 ISK? something low, less than 10ISk I would think) that you must pay whenever you perform a transaction. The bank will make additional revenue from this, to help add to what loan interest rates would do. This way, the players with money in said bank are guaranteed to get back at least the amount of money that was already there unless the bank is destroyed.

So basically the amount of money the bank will have = Startup amount(minimum) + player money + surplus. Banks may loan out to non-bank members only(but the bank CEO guy can give access to the surplus to lower level members or give tehm some money from the treasury...)and may loan out at most all the money available MINUS the Startup + 1/3 of the players money in the bank. So the other 2/3 will be available to loan, as will the surplus. THis way players will be able to make withdrawals without causing the bank to go down. In addition, if a player decides to withdraw all of their money for a bank(players should have minimums so they cant withdraw everything, say a 5 million ISK minimum for a bank account or something?) the bank will be given 2 weeks notice, and after said 2 weeks, the players can remove it all. So that a single player that has A LOT of money int he bank cant cause it to go bankrupt instantly, and the bank will have a chance to get new money so they stay afloat.

This will help promote good and healthy business practices amongst the player base.

As for how this will fit in with the current central bank, that one cant give you interest rates or loans can it? It basically just keeps all your ISK safe from prying hands, it will still exist, and that is where a players "spendable" money will be kept, and may only purchase things with that amount of money, to buy something that costs more than the amount in the central bank, you must first make a withdrawal. This way both methods will still exist, and the centralized bank will continue to be a standardized thing...

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.12.01 22:18:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
What do you mean "What does this have to do with corps"? DId you even BOTHER TO READ THE POSTS?




You are asking for npc intervention to solve a plyer problem. An idea based on that premise, no matter how long winded, is poor.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.01 22:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
What do you mean "What does this have to do with corps"? DId you even BOTHER TO READ THE POSTS?




You are asking for npc intervention to solve a plyer problem. An idea based on that premise, no matter how long winded, is poor.


What do you mean I am asking for NPC intervention to solve a player problem? And what does that have to do with your quote?

I dont see the mention of NPC's ANYWHERE in my post, at all..... sure I mention an NPC organisation, and that is the Concorde version of a bank, but that doesnt mean that there is actually a Concorde bank, it is simply an explanation of who takes back the stuff for redistribution, in reality the Eve servers/ source code/ whatever would handle the reposession of everything, as in it is automatic, so I dont think that counts as an NPC... Or is there something that I missed or forgot?


desintox
Square Dimensions
Quantum Cookies
Posted - 2005.12.02 01:01:00 - [11]
 

One of the first days I was in EVE I went to a bank station.
Thinking of depositing money in the bank to get interest.

If we could just get bank accounts from NPC to get interest on your money would be very good.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.02 01:21:00 - [12]
 

::sigh:: FOR THE LAST TIME, THIS IS A PLAYER CONTROLLED BANK IDEA, NOT AN NPC CONTROLLED BANK IDEA! ARGHHH!!!!!....

*rant over* Yes, I spent all of 1 hour trying to find out about the banking system in Eve, as far as I know one exists in almost every other MMO, or I could be wrong, but regardless, the chance to make interest is a exciting one, and the thought of "REAL WARS" is exciting as well... AND both can be accomplished if you support my idea Very Happy

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.12.02 05:45:00 - [13]
 

I would love to see a more robust capitalist system in place.

f.ex. an exchange market, futures and puts, subsistence wages, rents, non-liquid capital, simple contracts and near-institutional contracts, and once capital has any meaning - banks and loan institutions.

However, as is, capital is largely impotent. The kind of investments for which you would need capital are going to be BPO (plus contruction materials) currently. Banks aren't going to work for this, and players as is aren't poor by any means and never really get poorer if they are engaged in business or other manual labor.

(Kinda makes you wonder if CCP content developers aren't trying to send a subtle signal to their CEO or CTO or whatever they call him.)

As is, capital is impotent within this environment. Now when contracts come out, it will be interesting to see if it changes the oeconomic importance of capital, but I suspect any change is going to be a gradual process. I just hope it manifests some time before EVE2 or before the >100k player mark. At that point, any mass player behaviors are going to be utterly set and CCP will never have the corporate wherewithal to change course due to diminishing returns in profiture. (Hopefully this point hasn't been reached yet.)

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.12.02 06:30:00 - [14]
 

You can not have a sophisticated economic system in a MMOG, end of story. Sophisticated economies rely on people being punished for causing "exploits" (insider trading, dumping product, stock manipulation). It is simply not possible to have the sort of governance that is required to prevent people "exploiting" the market. It simply takes to much man power and to much unfun mechanics to get a stable system. Even if CCP had a free for all system with no governance, the amount of petitions that the GM's recieve would probably double. I have corp members who could single handedly crash such markets due to their wealth.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.02 19:54:00 - [15]
 

Which is exactly why this would spur the community to PvP against a bank, assuming that a loophole COULD be found in the system I have proposed, I am sure there is one, but regardless if word gets out, PvP is on!

Vaaliant
Posted - 2005.12.03 04:46:00 - [16]
 

So whats to stop one player making a new account, (under the nominal trial period or just after it), request a loan for x amount of money..then transfer said money to another account thats being paid by a different credit card?

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.03 15:33:00 - [17]
 

I went over that one in my first post, and doth I quote:

"To stop people from cheating and taking advantage of this, the money you took out MUST be payed back before you can delete the alt that took it out, and your other characters/alts will become flagged as well, until you have payed back the debt. You will not be able to "send money" to another player either until the debt is gone, and to make sure you simply cant take the ISK, buy something from a friend through the market for the full amount of ISK, and get your account canceled and start a new one, the stuff you buy with the money is partially owned by the bank, and will be reposessed and returned to the player who it was bought from and the money that the seller made from the loaned money will be sent back by the bank, no matter who owns it(the item, not the ISK). Any item that is partially owned by the bank will be clearly marked as being so, and the player will be marked as "In Debt" so when they attempt to buy something from the market, the item they want to buy is taken off the market, and a message sent to the seller that the buyer is in debt, if they accept the transaction, then the seller gets the cash and the buyer gets the item. This way, everything is done in safety and balance, and it is a lose - lose situation if you try to cheat."

You will see that it is quite impossible to do that...

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.12.04 00:02:00 - [18]
 

Give me one good reason to read all that.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.04 00:57:00 - [19]
 

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't spam all your posts?

Vaaliant
Posted - 2005.12.04 22:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
I went over that one in my first post, and doth I quote:

"To stop people from cheating and taking advantage of this, the money you took out MUST be payed back before you can delete the alt that took it out, and your other characters/alts will become flagged as well, until you have payed back the debt. You will not be able to "send money" to another player either until the debt is gone, and to make sure you simply cant take the ISK, buy something from a friend through the market for the full amount of ISK, and get your account canceled and start a new one, the stuff you buy with the money is partially owned by the bank, and will be reposessed and returned to the player who it was bought from and the money that the seller made from the loaned money will be sent back by the bank, no matter who owns it(the item, not the ISK). Any item that is partially owned by the bank will be clearly marked as being so, and the player will be marked as "In Debt" so when they attempt to buy something from the market, the item they want to buy is taken off the market, and a message sent to the seller that the buyer is in debt, if they accept the transaction, then the seller gets the cash and the buyer gets the item. This way, everything is done in safety and balance, and it is a lose - lose situation if you try to cheat."

You will see that it is quite impossible to do that...


Heres the problem you got, you're equating a game driven designs product/service with linkage to a real world corporation product service (namely the game account cannot be cancelled because I have withdrawn money in game from a bank by an action that I can do inside of the game). Thats where you will find that most courts in the US and probably EU will side with the consumer. The consumer has a right at anytime to cancel their subscription/account for any reason whatsoever, CCP cannot stop them in this. Your plan would merely put CCP in a whole world of legal problems.

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.05 01:57:00 - [21]
 

Where does it say you can't cancel your account? I see that written nowhere in that quote, maybe I missed it but can you higlight that sentence for me?

What it does say however, is that any items that were bought using loaned money will be taken back, this way if you cancel your account after transferring everything to a friend, you wont be able to have taht friend transfer it back to you, since he will no longer be in possesion of it.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.12.05 02:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Where does it say you can't cancel your account? I see that written nowhere in that quote, maybe I missed it but can you higlight that sentence for me?

What it does say however, is that any items that were bought using loaned money will be taken back, this way if you cancel your account after transferring everything to a friend, you wont be able to have taht friend transfer it back to you, since he will no longer be in possesion of it.


What happens if I use borrowed money to fufill other debts?

Ryyth
FACTS on EVE
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2005.12.05 05:32:00 - [23]
 

There is already at least one corporation out there that is attempting to perform a limited 'Financial Aid' system.

For more information talk to the Gents in Terran Robotics Financial. Think their chat channel is TRF.

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2005.12.06 07:45:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 20:31:20
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 01/12/2005 20:03:58
... why is captialism bad? IF you think capitalism is evil, I hate to tell you this, but you are playing a game about capitalism, and big business under a free economics system.


I could write an entire set of novels on the horror and sheer barbarism of capitalism not kept in check by socialism.

Unruly capitalism, is a garuntee in a controlled system such as EVE. Capitalism is OK, if in check, but rarely is it ever in check becuase of the class differences between suppliers and consumers. Consumers' ideas of wealth are dellusional and fabricated, guided by those who actually know what wealth is... the "Haves". Wealth is ownership, of assets, of actual properties... this is what wealthy people well understand; consumers rarely realize that the value of those affluent is largely an appriasal of their assets not the figures on their banks interim report; it's quite likely that a common contruction worker will have more currency in his pocket at any given point in time than Bill Gates might--but, the construction worker has to pay rent, car payments and in reality, he owns nothing at all, becuase of credit cards, not even the shirt on his back. Consumers, they think wealth is in the number representing how much currency they have credited to them; fools.

Becuase of this seperation of ideologies, which MUST exist for the game of capitalism, consumers' sight is drastically inhibited. For they only care for what benefits themselves, and this leads to individualism coupled with greed at a fundamental level. Societies under grand individualism become insensitive to things they may easily ignore. For example, the United States of America, being so physically secluded to the rest of the world, is more likely, or easily suseptible to engage in mild warfare or exploitation of inhuman labour overseas... which brings to the table, the utter fact that noone wants to think about...

If you are able to purchase a loaf of bread, in a capitalistic society, that's only becuase someone, somewhere, has gone a month without a decent meal or pay to harvest the wheat for the bread you just bought. Even though you could afford it, the supplier still made upwards of 200-300% pure profit becuase it literally cost him nothing at all to give you that loaf of bread; thanks to the fact that price caps are rarely implemented and never implemented for some items--such items as pharmecuticals in the US.

For all practical purposes, I have seen through my ventures across the world... to Iraq, Afghanistan, China, Australia, Britian, Germany, Mexico, Canada, Somalia, U.A.E, Bahrain, Qatar, Indonesia, Singapore...

Nothing, to date, causes more suffering, oppression and bloodshed as the capitalistic interests of United States and Western Europe on the rest of the world. Nothing. But, We Americans and Europeans enjoy, so much, the luxury of a Coca-Cola... all we see is what's in sight and the starving child in Africa building your Sony Walkman for nothing picks up the slack.....

You think Capitalism is good, only becuase you are on that side of the equation...

Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.06 22:57:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 06/12/2005 22:58:35
"You call me a fool, and yet you know nothing of my life. I spent 20 years in socialist East Germany. I spent many years travelling through Socialsit East Europe, I was lucky to escape. I am thankful for Capitalism, sure it isn't perfect, but I find it FAR better than Socialism ever was..."

What I just quoted for you above is part of my dads auto-biography. Strangely enough communists and socialists seem to like to call capitalists a fool, since I have been called one many times before as has he. ANYWAY, the point is no system is perfect, but at least Capitalism doesnt require a "perfect world" or "utopian society" scenario to succesfully work. Sure it still won't work as well as I would like it to, but it will be far better than communism or socialism would ever be without above scenario. And the day that the world becomes Utopian/ perfect and communistic/socialist, is the day that mankind has allowed me to fulfill my greatest dream of conquering the world.


Anyway, how about some constructive criticism that does not involve captain commie and his socialist lieutenants?

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2005.12.08 05:05:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 06/12/2005 22:58:35
"You call me a fool, and yet you know nothing of my life. I spent 20 years in socialist East Germany. I spent many years travelling through Socialsit East Europe, I was lucky to escape. I am thankful for Capitalism, sure it isn't perfect, but I find it FAR better than Socialism ever was..."

What I just quoted for you above is part of my dads auto-biography. Strangely enough communists and socialists seem to like to call capitalists a fool, since I have been called one many times before as has he. ANYWAY, the point is no system is perfect, but at least Capitalism doesnt require a "perfect world" or "utopian society" scenario to succesfully work. Sure it still won't work as well as I would like it to, but it will be far better than communism or socialism would ever be without above scenario. And the day that the world becomes Utopian/ perfect and communistic/socialist, is the day that mankind has allowed me to fulfill my greatest dream of conquering the world.


Anyway, how about some constructive criticism that does not involve captain commie and his socialist lieutenants?


I would like to point out, that even Adam Smith was very wary of a Capitalistic implementation that did NOT have reasonable government regulation.

In EVE, poverty can easily be dealt with, spawning more roids, dropping stuff in rat's cargo cans... but, in the real world, whose going to dig the ditch, whose going to tend the fields? Entire continents are purposely held in governmental disarray and social strife, for they are the source of cheap labour for more wealthy countries; Central and South America if you want a perfect example.

Now, I'm not for pure socialism or communism, facism or any other 'ism'. But, pure capitalism, or unruly capitalism as it is practiced *today* and in *real life*, is far more ignoble and bloody than ANY previous form of oppressive government or dictator, in conglomerate, in all of history. At least pure communist nations tended to keep to themselves, which the tendancy for capitalists nations to embrace empiralism so their markets are in constant expansion makes unruly capitalism a bane to world society... a cancer even.

There are even darker sides to unruly capitalism. It's preferred form of government is democracy, and the reason why is becuase the capitalists, via media, may control social mind sets and set the stage for whatever legislation or governmental representation they see fit. Which, by the way, makes it extremely difficult for any rising nation to *ever* supersede the most wealthy capitalists state. Any none democractic state to form today, will forever, individually, be in the shackles of some more powerful capitalistic state. The formation of the European Union and the unified economic standard the Euro, I feel, broke some of the political/legislative influence America had on any particular European nation...

And, if nothing makes you aware of the potential horror unruly capitalism may bring... consider the fact that all political horrors could be boiled down to greed, greed of some kind. Even a King must answer to his people and face an uprising... under capitalism, a CEO answers to noone. Some might suggest he must consider share holders... but this is not viable as share holders always make up very little of the constituants and further more only the most wealthy share holders are lent an ear. So all the issues, once again, remain in the upper 1% of society, and the ties to some common man recognition has been broken completely.

Today, your child will die in an unfit car during an accident becuase the fail point was found to be cost effective and profitable even under scrutiny and legal confrontation. Do not underestimate the ammoral thoughts of a wealthy socio-path in a capitalistic system.

Spy4Hire
Posted - 2005.12.08 07:33:00 - [27]
 

*guh* Just reading the first paragraph makes me want to puke.

This is supposed to be an escape from the tangled mundane sameness that we have to slog through every day. Do we want to have to deal with banks & creditors in EVE, too?

No way, thank you.

And as for banks... having T2 ship BPO = bank. CCP idiotically won't seed them more plentifully despite the massive increase of users.

weard
Posted - 2005.12.08 08:24:00 - [28]
 

Obviously, there are so many problems about the banks that is normal why CCP didn't introduce it before. If we take that only 10% of players think about how to cheat the game, there are 8.000 brains which think how to use it on the different way that CCP thought.

The only way to solve the problem is to use the other players brains to fight against the cheating in the way that loaners have to decide will they or not approve the credit and under what conditions. CCP should give the loaners some information under which they can decide about the borrower - number of SP points, active time from the beginning of the play, position in the company etc.

And the most important, CCP should provide automatic pay of the annuity like they do that with the factories or labs.

TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
Posted - 2005.12.08 08:35:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Deja Thoris
An idea based on that premise, no matter how long winded, is poor.


Amen. Same wave length now and then !


 

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