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queen'beee
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:20:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: queen''beee on 01/11/2005 12:23:51

The change is good!



You are all not looking at the bigger picture. Drones now can have specialiased purposes. This adds variety to the game and gives more than what was there before.

Server Performance is increased especially in fleet battles where everyone has a habit to just drop thier drones and forget about them.

There is no rule that says gallente should have the most drones, but through specialization they should have the best drones, and that is what you will continue to have through % in racial bonus damage.

This isn't a dominix nerf, you get more damage for your skills, more than any other BS's drones, and dont forget drones afect all players so if you think its bad for you image the raven or scorp.

Look at the raven, after the super missile nerf it became 95% reliant on drones against little ships, dont you think the change will hurt the raven more than the dominix?

Everything is moving to specialization so there is no common 'win' button. This is good.

Thermal damage on gallente drones is GOOD. Stop whining and understand that each race has a specific racial type of damage thats how its supposed to be. You still can use other drones just know that thermal will give you the best damage output as bonus.

I seriously dont understand why you are all being crybabies, would you prefer 15 lag drones not doing much at all except lagging everyone in a fight, or 5 nice trimmed drones with capabilities that free up your mid slots and are stronger.

Look at the bigger picture and stop whining. Very Happy

Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:23:00 - [242]
 

This change is BAD!

I’m going to try to explain why this new change is bad but fear my voice will be washed away in the ocean of replies but oh well. Guess it doesn’t matter anyways.

The whole idea of reducing the number of drones is a cool idea. The thought of just giving a ship like 5 drones but the skills determine the damage of 15 drones is really cool. It will reduce lag and give people more thought on when to deploy their drones out.

I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones you’re adding. You’re adding in a number of “Electronic Warfare” drones but you don’t say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you don’t say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.

On top of this, I have like 2.5 million skill points in “Electronic Warfare”. I fly some frigate setups using ECM. Like for example, my ECM cheetah that uses 2 ECM modules. The only way I can run this setup is if I get the BEST named ECM racial in the game as well fit all my lows with cap power relays because even with skills it’s still a deep amount of cap to run every 20 seconds. I have to do a lot of sacrificing and money spending to use my cool electronic warfare frigates. Now you just throw out these cool drones for free… Not all frigates even cruisers have drone bays ok?

So I won’t jump off the deep end or anything being I don’t know ALL the information but if it’s just what I think it is. Then all drone ships in the game especially frigates will seriously have free boosts to there ships and use less tactical skill doing it. You know fitting for a fight.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:31:00 - [243]
 

Combat does not last long enough to deploy drones. Unless your a gate camper, there is no reason to take a few extra million in drones out to PVP.

Drones are mostly used for mining, and NPC'ng.

So why the nerf?

I see no reason for it. Just another lazy way of trying to "Fix" a problem that is caused by other factors.

Removeing 75% of my combat abililty has made this character useless in anything but small ship PVP.

So if your going to screw up my trained skills like this every time you "THINK" you have a solution, how about transfering all the skill points to one of my alts?

This is getting REALLY FRECKING OLD people.

/emote wonders if his EQ account is still there?



Akira Yamata
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:34:00 - [244]
 

Its not so bad, i think tux is very brave being the messenger for these type of changes.

I'm open minded enough to give them a try

Dufas
Amarr
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:35:00 - [245]
 

it sounds like a missle nerf....more skills to do to get back what we already have and in some cases make it worse...another useless change they make instead of adding stuff that was suppose to be released a year ago...thanks dev's once again your screwing everyone in the form of additions to make things better Rolling Eyes

Ticondrius
United Federation Starfleet
Saints Amongst Sinners
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:36:00 - [246]
 

*Finally took the time to read every page of posts in this topic...

OMG...RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!! Is the first thing that comes to mind. ShockedShockedLaughingLaughing

Sarkos
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:38:00 - [247]
 

Well, if the drone changes are suposed to reduce the lag, then they have targeted the wrong culprit. Bookmarks are the cause for fleet battle lag. Take from 50-200 ships, all in the same general location, all with about 1000 bookmarks and there is where the lag comes from, not the several hundred drones.

Any lag from drones can also be countered by displaying 1 icon per 5 drones. Put an option in the graphics menu to how many drones per flight (25%, 50%. ect) with a max output of 5 icons. This way drone carriers would still launch thier 30 drones, but only 5 icons appear, each representing 6 drones.

Benilopax
Gallente
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:39:00 - [248]
 

It looks like ccp are struggling with server load and so have changed it to buy some time. That is fair enough but i think the dom should get 10% bonus on all dmg types.

Also what about carriers? Will they only have 5 fighters?

Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:45:00 - [249]
 

Calm down everbody, I've worked out what this is all about.

The dev blog was posted on a Monday.

Mangus Thermopyle usually posts his ideas on a Monday.

Mangus Thermopyle did not post yesterday.

We can therefore conclude that Tuxford is Mangus Thermopyle's alt.


Pheno Xanes
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:54:00 - [250]
 

I think you can boil down most of the complaints to:

*People don't want the "thermal damage only" bonus to Gallente droneships.

*Changing drone interfacing away from +1 drone per level seems unnecessary because drones aren't used in combat all that often except by drone ships and certain battleships.

*We'd rather have "weaker" EWAR drones and deploy lots of them than have strong EWAR drones but a max of 5.

*People who spent lots of time on drone interfacing V, BS V, etc. in order to get the extra drones don't have huge advantages over the rest of Eve, so why nerf them by making it so that their enemies can now target and focus fire on their 5 drones to strip them of offense/defense? When I have a Dom with 14 drones out, people either pack smartbombs, stay out of range, or go for my ship - not my drones for the most part.

Pheno Xanes
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:56:00 - [251]
 

Oh and one more thing - halving dronebays means that when you run from a fight and leave your drones behind, you DON'T have reserve drones in most ships so you're screwed even harder.

Sklitakling
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:16:00 - [252]
 

My last rant on this.. promise Smile

It has been mentioned already, but I feel it is an important point to make:

EW, as it is now, use cap. Cap that would otherwize be used to tank or to deal damage. If you get EW capability with drones that don't use cap, grid or cpu, you must balance all the ships in the game to compensate. Some ships will have the dronebay to effectively gank/tank + EW, while others will be limited to EW OR gank/tank ..

While I like balance changes and new content, I think this really need some rethinking from the devs..
Confused

BillyBong2
Amarr
3OO
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:27:00 - [253]
 

I missed something.

What is going to happen to the Gallente HAC - Ishtar.

That ship is going have to be completely re-designed?

Bsport
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Namtz'aar k'in
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:45:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Bsport on 01/11/2005 13:46:33
Originally by: BillyBong2
I missed something.

What is going to happen to the Gallente HAC - Ishtar.

That ship is going have to be completely re-designed?


tbh i feel so sick with these changes i think i'll be selling mine, whats the point of owning a drone ship now, i love using 15 drones, but soon u might as well go for anormal HAC and use normal guns. then at least ppl cant kill 3/15 of your damage output in a single pop, were as its only 1/15 of your damage output with a single dead drone

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:59:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 01/11/2005 14:02:11
Originally by: Noriath
Cooooo-rect! Introducing long range sentry drones that can give you extra gank-power in fleet combat will make lag worse, not better, since drones were mostly used in small engagements, not large fleetbattles so far.


LMAO. And people don't use them to lag other fleets out.

Clue. Not. You. Gets.

PS, versatility allways costs. You get 10% to one type, or 5% to all types. Pick.

Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:00:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Sklitakling
My last rant on this.. promise Smile

It has been mentioned already, but I feel it is an important point to make:

EW, as it is now, use cap. Cap that would otherwize be used to tank or to deal damage. If you get EW capability with drones that don't use cap, grid or cpu, you must balance all the ships in the game to compensate. Some ships will have the dronebay to effectively gank/tank + EW, while others will be limited to EW OR gank/tank ..

While I like balance changes and new content, I think this really need some rethinking from the devs..
Confused


That's what I'm talking about **** damage whines. Who cares about damage if your opponent is totaly crippled by damn ECM drones and Damps when I spent Millions of SP in EW to suffer cap drain.

Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:02:00 - [257]
 

5% to all types would suit me down to the ground to be honest.

Summersnow
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:04:00 - [258]
 

Ship Drone Bay Heavies

Armageddon 250 10
Apocalypse 150 6

Scorpion 150 6
Raven 150 6

Dominix 750 30
Megathron 250 10

Typhoon 350 14
Tempest 150 6


Amarr / Caldari make out very very good by this change as they could not control the max # of drones previously.

As usual the minies can't make up there mind and one is better and one gets a huge nurf.

The gallante just take a cattle prod up the ass on this change, whereas all there enemies get a buff they take a nurf. ( recieving the same dps as before against one of the more hardened damage types as opposed to all enemies geting dps buffs is a NURF )

Do the same thing for all classes of ships and I expect all the way down the line the normally drone weak amarr just got a big dps bonus and the drone dependant gallente just got the shaft.


Remedial
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:18:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Summersnow

Ship Drone Bay Heavies

Armageddon 125 5
Apocalypse 75 3

Scorpion 75 3
Raven 75 3

Dominix 375 15
Megathron 125 5

Typhoon 175 7
Tempest 75 3



Fixed because drone bays are being halved.

Doesn't look so bad now, does it?

Qin Yu
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:21:00 - [260]
 

Another set of ideas..

Why not have all of these specialist T2 drones be twice the size of normal drones in terms of displacement?

Small 10m3
Medium 30m3
Large 50m3

Suggestion 2.
Keep with the drone fleet idea, for RP purposes we can launch hundreds of drones but they're only represented by 5 sets of models on the game client..

Suggestion 3. Modules
These should be like command modules perhaps requiring a high slot instead and require Cap to activate. Or be passive (Give Drone ships an additional bonus in CPU reduction of these instead)

Drone Telemetry Uplink
Increases Drone range by 10% (This max range derived off of current range boosted by Scout Drone skills dont want this too high though because it'll equate to the Ishtar's main bonus.)

Drone swarm AI core
Makes drone swarms more co-ordinated and intelligent. (Basically adds a percentage to fall-off and damage per level) Keep the proposed damage type changes but Gallente pilots can fit this module to get SOME bonus with their non-racial drones.

Drone maintenance array small, medium, large
A smart bomb like effect that repairs drones up to associated ranges. That or have them repaired internally.
(I like the idea of recalling drones and having them nesting in my bays being fixed)

Aegis Missile defence AI
Provides a 1% chance per drone to damage incoming missiles = to a defender. (see drone proposals)

Interception Tactics Core
Increase sentry Drone damage reduction bonus by 1%/level

I'll think up a few more soon

Suggestion 4. New drones and ideas for the proposed ones

EWAR is a big issue here. How about rather than targetted ECM from each drone have a really weak burst ECM and the skills are again like Smartbombs decrease activation times between pulses.

Warp Stabiliser Drones
Self explanatory....

Sentry Drones
Drones that dont NEED to be deployed when launch but set to DEFEND a target. Once in place they can defend against attacking drones, and/or provide a percentage chance to intercept incoming fire be it from ANY weapon..
Sand-caster Drone (Amarr) 2% reduction in EM damage/drone
Patriot Drone (Caldari) 2% reduction in Kin damage/drone
Anti-Radiation (Gallente) 2% reduction in Therm damage/drone
Ablative screen (Minmatar) 2% reduction in Exp damage/drone

Sounds a little anti-Caldari, especially with the module that increases the chance to intercept missiles. However, the chances are only very slight in all senses and the range can be restricted. Perhaps the module only allows a long time between attempts...

Remember, if these drones were much larger then the chances would be miniscule but it could lead towards some interesting tactics.. Damnit watched too much Babylon 5...

Suggestion 5.

Specialist Drone skills

Logistics Drones: +3% effectiveness/level
EWAR Drones: +1 EWAR Drone/level
Sentry Drones: +1 Sentry Drone/level

Co-ordinated Drone defence
(high requirements)
Increase effectiveness of Interception tactics core and Aegis Missile defence by 100% per level.

Drone co-ordinated strike
Increase effictiveness of Drone swarm AI core byt 100%/level.


See where im going with this... Anything good here?





Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:22:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
This change is BAD!

I’m going to try to explain why this new change is bad but fear my voice will be washed away in the ocean of replies but oh well. Guess it doesn’t matter anyways.

The whole idea of reducing the number of drones is a cool idea. The thought of just giving a ship like 5 drones but the skills determine the damage of 15 drones is really cool. It will reduce lag and give people more thought on when to deploy their drones out.

I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones you’re adding. You’re adding in a number of “Electronic Warfare” drones but you don’t say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you don’t say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.

On top of this, I have like 2.5 million skill points in “Electronic Warfare”. I fly some frigate setups using ECM. Like for example, my ECM cheetah that uses 2 ECM modules. The only way I can run this setup is if I get the BEST named ECM racial in the game as well fit all my lows with cap power relays because even with skills it’s still a deep amount of cap to run every 20 seconds. I have to do a lot of sacrificing and money spending to use my cool electronic warfare frigates. Now you just throw out these cool drones for free… Not all frigates even cruisers have drone bays ok?

So I won’t jump off the deep end or anything being I don’t know ALL the information but if it’s just what I think it is. Then all drone ships in the game especially frigates will seriously have free boosts to there ships and use less tactical skill doing it. You know fitting for a fight.



I agree with famine here, this really penalises ships that don't have drone bays (such as mallers and a few frigates) compared to the other ships in the same tier that do have drone bays.

If these new drones are going to be ingame then the player using them should have to fit high/mid/low slot mods to allow them to deploy the drones (i.e: EW Drone Control Mod for the midslots). A play using these new drones should have to sacrifice somthing on their ship setup to get the benefit.

Roxanne
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:38:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones you’re adding. You’re adding in a number of “Electronic Warfare” drones but you don’t say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you don’t say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.



Checking information 4tw: Drone Thread

Roxanne
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:42:00 - [263]
 

Most ships sacrifice something for their drone bay. While the Maller cannot utilise drones, it has more slots than any other cruiser.

These instinctive "Oh Noes" answers are quite funny. Especially the "CCP ruined EVE with this change" and the "I cancel my account" ones... Laughing

These ideas are up for testing, people. Instead of crying, how about jumping on SiSi as soon as the new drones are there and seeing for yourself? Unfortunately, people believe that making ******ed threats and unfounded whines are superiour to a real discussion.

Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:45:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: kieron

Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?



With post's like that i can see why.

Lets nerf drones so that people have to pay to play for another 2 months of skilling to get back to what they had, in the 4 months i have played this game, the whole focus of devs seems to be pushing skill time to the maxium.

Let see how much longer we can drag skills out for. Seem's to be the one and only goal, Of the dev team.

Thesalaus
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:52:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Thesalaus on 01/11/2005 15:55:01

This is not RIGHT!

I specialized in gallente for their superior drone control abilities. Taking drone interface, scout drone, heavy drones, gallente battleship and HAC skill all to lvl 5! Not to mention the drone specialization skills to lvl 4.

Now 2 years after release you want to implement this change. Just not right.

Limiting drone carries to 5 drones is not right.

Race specific drone damage bonus is not right.

Halving drone bay is not right.

Changing the drone interface skill is not right.

Why not just bind drones into squads so that in every aspect they act and perform as one model/entity that I could live with.

Not to mention you've taken the ONE thing that was special about the drone carries and thrown it out the window (the swarm) leaving no clear reason why to pilot a drone carrier over any number of other ships that totally outclass them in EVERY respect.

I don't even begin to claim to know any of the tech issues contributing to lag in battles ect. I’m just voicing my displeasure at this drastic change that I've invested ALOT of training into ,which basically nerfs my character.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:59:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
Combat does not last long enough to deploy drones. Unless your a gate camper, there is no reason to take a few extra million in drones out to PVP.


Right. You are a moron.

Vexor, Dominix, Ishtar.

Every kill I have got in my geddon recently was partially thanks to drones. Which I dropped *after* warping to my target. It takes two seconds to deploy drones and click "attack".

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:05:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: theRaptor on 01/11/2005 16:06:50
[REMOVED due to posting accident]

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:06:00 - [268]
 

All the people *****ing about EW drones don't get it. Nearly all the drone ships are *also* EW ships (or most of the standard fittings are). Unless they are being purely used to support a fleet, they won't be able to use EW drones and kill things.

The real horror will be EW Armageddons.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:18:00 - [269]
 

There's a lot of analysis of the problems with this change in the ships & modules forum sticky, go read if you're interested.

Now that Tux has changed the racial bonus to a general bonus, things aren't quite as bad... but there's still a problem.

In a nutshell, the drone carrier ships will be the ones least able to use the new drone types. Why? Because their design is based on their using drones as primary weapons (they have crappy grid, etc, to reflect this). A Dom which uses non-damage drones is going to be losing a *lot* of firepower.

Contrast to a Geddon, for an easy example. It can now deploy 5 x EW drones, with no loss to firepower. Other similar examples are easy to find.

So we have the weird situation where the "drone specialist" ships are the last ships to reasonably use the new drones. All other ships can use EW drones and other nice effects on top of their full firepower and tank.

If the Dom is now expected to fit guns as primary weapons (as opposed to secondary), it needs a *massive* boost to grid. It has the smallest grid in the game, at the moment.

If it's still supposed to use drones as primary weapons, something still needs tweaking.

I'd propose a *small* additional number of controlled drones to the drone carrier ships (and maybe a reduction to the drone damage bonus, or removal of it altogether for something else). If a Dom were able to field, say, 7 drones, that would let it both have firepower and deploy a small number of support drones.


All in all, good ideas in the devblog. But it still needs work, if we are to keep the drone ships viable compared to other ships in their ship classes.

Roxanne
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:29:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

In a nutshell, the drone carrier ships will be the ones least able to use the new drone types. Why? Because their design is based on their using drones as primary weapons (they have crappy grid, etc, to reflect this). A Dom which uses non-damage drones is going to be losing a *lot* of firepower.

Contrast to a Geddon, for an easy example. It can now deploy 5 x EW drones, with no loss to firepower. Other similar examples are easy to find.



The feel is not right, because drone carrier should use drones the most. But drone carriers can and do use the slots that other ships use for damage (high: guns, med: tracking/sensor modules, low: damage mods) for everything that the new drones can be used for. So a Domi can use its drones for damage und use its leftover slots for NOS, EW and everything else the new drones can be used.

A Geddon could also launch its drones and deal damage. The question is, will the EW drones be overpowered? And this is linked to their stats and the stacking of effects. If 5 EW drones come close to one single module, they do not sound bad.


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