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Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:03:00 - [1]
 

Well, first of i need to point out that this is NOT a "BooHoo" thread. This thread is to emphatise a problem that me and possibly others are facing with the unstability and current lag status of tranquility.

I like to play EVE "hard" whenever i can afford it, mainly because my time to play is scarce (2 jobs, GF, etc), so i have chosen to "play in (expensive) style" too compensate, just to have more fun on the scarce time that i play.

Many of you may call me stupid flying a 4Bil ship in 0.0 and although i'm ready to lose it in PVP i'm sure not ready to lose it against NPCs.

The reason for the above statement is that in "normal" circumstances it's IMPOSSIBLE that i lose my ship to NPC's. BUT these "normal" circumstances have been changed and now "normal" means LAG and server unstability.

Am i enjoying EVE nowadays? The answer is NO. Everyone knows of the "harsh" GM refund policy, and yesterday i was hit by NPC's secret weapon, LAG.

Moddules freaze, LAG while in warp to a roid belt, and 2 minuts of "nothing happened". When EVE finaly "woke up to life" i had my ship on half armor and several NPCs happly shooting and scrambling. Half armor damaged ship is something impossile (with current ship and setup) MADE possible. I imagine if there was a 4 minut freeze Shocked

The GM policy is strict and with NO appeal, and i think they need more tools to see what had realy hapened to a player, at least give them the chance to use common sence.

Ask this question to any player:
-Is it possible for a CN Raven with Gistii X-type shield modules set to be killed by 1 and 1.5M NPCs in "normal" circumstances?

The answer is "NO WAY". The GM's also know that but their rules are NOT common sence. They are "brain handcuffs" dictated by the mighty (unacurrate/lacking) logs.

Just to be REAL CLEAR, this does not apply to PVP, PVP is another matter, and when the time comes (and it will come) that my glorious ship is destroyed in PVP you WON'T see me petitioning ANYTHING.


Dimitri Chandler
Gallente
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:15:00 - [2]
 

Yeah I kinda agree tbh

The risks involved with dying to NPC lag weapons are putting people off using these valuable ships in proper space. Wouldn't be so bad if you could at least insure them to a decent level.

Corair
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:33:00 - [3]
 

I've come close in the past to losing ships for the same reason. Keep trying to petition - make them compensate you in man-hours sorting your petitions at least.

CelticKnight
THE PAROXYSM
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:34:00 - [4]
 

lags a pain.. thus i havent touched any deadspaces or anything that just MIGHT cause me to loose my precious (cost enuf money!)

ill just mine.. and happily wait 48hrs and hope that new drive cleans some of this up...

or at least stock enough mins that if i do loose my ship its easily replaced

Face Lifter
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:34:00 - [5]
 

Quote:
Ask this question to any player:
-Is it possible for a CN Raven with Gistii X-type shield modules set to be killed by 1 and 1.5M NPCs in "normal" cir****ances?
I would agree that it is possible, with 99% certainty, to tell whether a given group of NPCs is able to kill a certain ship or not. GMs should be able to have data on what ship type and what equipment was used. Just by looking at ship and equipment, it's fairly easy to make logical deduction on whether a group of NPC can do enough damage to break its tank.

To avoid any misunderstandings, one could write out all the math involved, down to capacitor recharge, and prove that in "worst case scenario", NPCs can't possibly kill the ship.

However, making such a proof for every such case would be too much work and GMs are probably not allowed to have common sense. (they may not even have it in the first place)

Corvus Anderran
Liberty Rogues
Rally Against Evil
Posted - 2005.10.19 07:37:00 - [6]
 

As mentioned in a post Oveur made recently, if the lag is server-side then it's accompanied by logs so the GMs can help you out there. If the lag is on your end then there is no way for the GMs to tell. And I know it's easy for me to say since I haven't lost anything expensive to lag and have a constant 20ms ping to the servers, but in every MMO I've played where the GMs allow some leeway in item replacement, the system has been abused.

Hopefully though, the new hardware should help things out.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.10.19 08:17:00 - [7]
 

The issue here isn't if the npc's could kill your ship, clearly they could as they had you down to half armour.

The only issue of concern for the GM's is "was the problem at CCP's end?".
You see, if it isn't logged it might be lag..
..or you could have popped to the toilet...
..or fallen asleep...
..or your isp could have died...

... whatever.

The point is the GM's can (and should) only replace things which can be verified.

Also, you can always appeal a GM's descision.
And, reimbursement is more common if the server is undergoing more general problems, even if your specific loss isn't logged.

qrac
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.19 08:38:00 - [8]
 

that's why i always use setups that can tank forever when i'm npc-ing. i activate the reppers and leave them on and if i ctd it's not a big deal since the reppers are active.

Tiny Carlos
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:00:00 - [9]
 

Lol, I npc in a rifter, I lag for 10 sec and the ships gone....but who cares it's a rifter ;)

Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Avon
The issue here isn't if the npc's could kill your ship, clearly they could as they had you down to half armour.

The only issue of concern for the GM's is "was the problem at CCP's end?".
You see, if it isn't logged it might be lag..
..or you could have popped to the toilet...
..or fallen asleep...
..or your isp could have died...

... whatever.

The point is the GM's can (and should) only replace things which can be verified.

Also, you can always appeal a GM's descision.
And, reimbursement is more common if the server is undergoing more general problems, even if your specific loss isn't logged.

Ofcourse they can destroy my ship, but "normal" circunstances are not what you describe. Warping to an infested belt without activating weapons or shields and sit quiet waiting for them to slowly tear up the ship is your idea of normal? Shocked Wink

Rodge
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:24:00 - [11]
 

Avon's got it exactly right.
I was out scouting belts in a Crow one night last week.
I warped in at 100, when I saw rats I immediately warped out.
There's no way anything could possibly catch a ceptor before it goes to warp....

unless I'm stupid enough to go and answer the phone (which I did)

So one dead Crow due to user stupidity (everyone in corpchat thought it was funny though Wink )

I could have petitioned, saying something like "I warped to the belt and everything froze. 2 minutes later, the screen unfroze and I was scrambled and almost dead." which would have sounded quite like what you have said. Only, that's not what happened. I went afk and paid the price. Now, I'm not saying that what you say happened didn't happen. In fact, I've no doubt that it did. I just understand the position of the GMs, in that they must have verifiable proof in the form of their own server logs before they can consider replacing what you lost.

When it comes to reimbursement, you should speak to L4 agent runners. They seem to know what to say to get ships replaced. I was in a channel with a few and one guy lost his Navy Raven. He admitted that he just handled the mission wrong and probably deserved to die, but his ceo told him to petition it anyway and eve-mailed him his own previous petition text (when he had his own Navy Raven destroyed). Sure enough, 6 days later he had his Navy Raven back....

Originally by: Aelius
Ofcourse they can destroy my ship, but "normal" circunstances are not what you describe. Warping to an infested belt without activating weapons or shields and sit quiet waiting for them to slowly tear up the ship is your idea of normal? Shocked Wink

As far as normal circumstances go, an ex-corpmate of mine was camping a gate alone in his BS when he fell asleep (this was ages back, back when a BS was a luxury item). He woke up hours later and was still alive. When he read local, he found that quite a few people had got past his "camp" and had smacked him in local for being too slow to catch them Very Happy So people do do stupid things with expensive toys and should never be reimbursed for stupidity!

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:28:00 - [12]
 

all i can say is if u dont want to loose it to NPCs take a slightly less expensive setup or only fit stuff factional modules wise that u have a backup of.
Yes non CCP side lag can be a pain at times lost a few ships but ah well get back on my bike and goa gain

chillz
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:29:00 - [13]
 

You should have put the hardners on before you warped in.

Baldour Ngarr
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aelius

Ofcourse they can destroy my ship, but "normal" circunstances are not what you describe.


Circumstances being abnormal doesn't prove lag, though. What if you're as completely stupid as I am and fought the spawn for two minutes before realising you'd forgotten to activate your defensive modules? Laughing

As said... it's not a question of whether they believe you. It has to be provable.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:36:00 - [15]
 

and it has to be CCP side to be reimbursed - the hardware upgrade on thursday should help a great deal from what they are saying - fingers crossed

Ardenne
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:40:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Avon
The issue here isn't if the npc's could kill your ship, clearly they could as they had you down to half armour.

The only issue of concern for the GM's is "was the problem at CCP's end?".
You see, if it isn't logged it might be lag..
..or you could have popped to the toilet...
..or fallen asleep...
..or your isp could have died...

... whatever.

The point is the GM's can (and should) only replace things which can be verified.

Also, you can always appeal a GM's descision.
And, reimbursement is more common if the server is undergoing more general problems, even if your specific loss isn't logged.

Ofcourse they can destroy my ship, but "normal" circunstances are not what you describe. Warping to an infested belt without activating weapons or shields and sit quiet waiting for them to slowly tear up the ship is your idea of normal? Shocked Wink


There are people incapable of using their brain before doing stuff, which is why what you described above is perfectly normal, which is why GMs can only replace stuff based on unforgeable evidence.


Liu Kaskakka
PAK
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:44:00 - [17]
 

I wonder why I don't NPC in anything expensive .. Rolling Eyes

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2005.10.19 09:51:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aelius
Ofcourse they can destroy my ship, but "normal" circunstances are not what you describe. Warping to an infested belt without activating weapons or shields and sit quiet waiting for them to slowly tear up the ship is your idea of normal? Shocked Wink


Never underestimate the power of human stupidity Wink

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.10.19 10:07:00 - [19]
 

Both ISD volunteers (Aurora, for one) and GM's need better tools, imho. God knows that the poor things try their best, but it's just so often that their hands are tied, and customers are left lacking.

slothe
Caldari
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas.
Posted - 2005.10.19 10:15:00 - [20]
 

i do agree.

the majority of my expensive ship losses were due to lag and server problems and bugs and even sometimes when i believe i had logs clearly showing the fault i was never compensated. this annoyed me, not because of the loss, as i can afford to replace ships, but the principle.

i dont mind losing ships to fights or good traps, but to lose ships to server faults is ultimately depressing.

KIATolon
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.19 10:18:00 - [21]
 

I think it's a huge shame. It's happened to me on more than one occasion, but unfortunately there's nothing to distinguish between you not being able to click on anything and you falling asleep or going AFK.

Tinilla
Gallente
Posted - 2005.10.19 10:44:00 - [22]
 

Really, Eves refund policy is very liberal compared to what I'm used to. In other games if you lost an object due to lag or your own carelessness, tough!

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2005.10.19 10:48:00 - [23]
 

As mentioned in a post Oveur made recently, if the lag is server-side then it's accompanied by logs so the GMs can help you out there. If the lag is on your end then there is no way for the GMs to tell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

exactly, if you not getting help from GM's the trouble is most likely lag from your carrier or your comp.

why youd want to post your whine here though is a mystery.

Ikvar
A Blue Goat
Posted - 2005.10.19 11:03:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aelius
Well, first of i need to point out that this is NOT a "BooHoo" thread.



Yes it is Laughing

fastwind
Caldari
RuffRyders
Free Trade Zone.
Posted - 2005.10.19 11:13:00 - [25]
 

i have to say server issues do suck and i have now got to the stage where i cant be bothered doing anything about it as i know i wont get anything done by ccp or gms.

Why waste my time writing a petition no point when it is a stock answer ike check cashe ect or we find nothing wrong ourside ect ths is the only issue i have with the game tbh.

And if you read the dev notes in an upcoming patch hardners ect will deactivate during a warp which means that you cant activate them untill you coe out of warp.

TimW
Posted - 2005.10.19 11:13:00 - [26]
 

I have used the ESC and QUIT GAME option a lot recently when lag came to town. I would rather warp back there later than get my ship blown up now.

Psychopath
Posted - 2005.10.19 11:19:00 - [27]
 

Ironically enough I foresaw this exact thing happening when you bought that ship, Ael. Even told you about it Shocked

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.19 12:05:00 - [28]
 

Just a note for you guys. If you experience this sort of thing, ie you are sitting there for 30 seconds and nothing is happening.

The first thing to do is activate your fraps. Start taking screenshots, show a small movie of you trying to activate those modules. I have had a few horrible moments where I have lost a ship to lag, and every time I have managed to show evidence of the death.

I know fraps slows you down even more. Find a lower quality. Just enough to see the problem. I always keep it open in taskbar so it is only one keystroke away. I am always in an expensive ship, so i find this to be very important. If CCP show the effort you went to, to recreate or explain the problem, there is more chance of a 'benefit of the doubt' scenario.

One time about 2 weeks ago I warped into a DS L4 mission that had lots of uber drones. Somehow I managed to warp right inside an asteroid. Once I saw this, i tried to initiate warp immediately. Of course, i couldnt get up to speed to get out of there, due to hitting the inner asteroid walls. I dont think I could even shoot the rats because my torps bounced around inside the asteroid. (was hectic so not positive about this).

Anyway, as soon as i realised I wasnt going anywhere, i took a whole lot of screens and fraps'd a small movie. Within a few days I was compensated for my loss in full.

I hope you get your ship back. It is a royal pain in the ass to have these things happen, and the above is just a recomendation to avoid future issues like this arising. But I agree that CCP needs a much better logging system.

Even if they finally released eve replays. Where you could activate it, and it only logs player side, and makes gameplay replays a much smaller file, as only keystrokes and interaction are logged. I forget the proper name for this. If this was finally released, or designed by a smart gamer, it would be a superb form of evidence.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2005.10.19 13:08:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: slothe
the majority of my expensive ship losses were due to lag and server problems and bugs and even sometimes when i believe i had logs clearly showing the fault i was never compensated.


It's not that hard to make fake logs that "clearly" show a fault that I "should" be compensted for. That's why the GMs aren't allowed to accept player-submitted logs as evidence.

Originally by: Ricdic
One time about 2 weeks ago I warped into a DS L4 mission that had lots of uber drones. Somehow I managed to warp right inside an asteroid. Once I saw this, i tried to initiate warp immediately. Of course, i couldnt get up to speed to get out of there, due to hitting the inner asteroid walls. I dont think I could even shoot the rats because my torps bounced around inside the asteroid. (was hectic so not positive about this).


In that situation, the server would have known that your ship was located within the asteroid, and would have been able to log that fact. So I would have thought that could have been veified through server logs rather than your fraps.

Yes, it would be nice of the GM's could verify absolutely everything that happened to you, but due to the nature of online gaming the only way to do that 100% would be to have the GM sitting next to you watching you play.

Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2005.10.19 14:49:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
I hope you get your ship back. It is a royal pain in the ass to have these things happen, and the above is just a recomendation to avoid future issues like this arising. But I agree that CCP needs a much better logging system.

Well i haven't lost the ship... yetWink I hope it happens "Soon TM" Laughing


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