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blankseplocked Level 5 -= ELITE Learning Skills =- Payoff
 
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.12.23 15:01:00 - [31]
 

“Pottsey, I think why no one has replied to your post is because, you are pretty clueless on the subject..”
I am no clueless in fact I am correct. I got level 5 advanced Charisma about a year ago. I have learnt the advanced leadership skills to level 5, based on Charisma. While everyone else had to spend a lot longer then me to learn those new skills. Just look at all the people complaining about the skills needed to fly T2 BC’s. Because I have level 5 advanced Charisma I learnt the needed skills ages ago and I didn’t spend nearly as long as people who have Charisma in the single digits.

So getting level 5 advanced Charisma didn’t take 3 years to pay its self back. It paid its self back in well under a year.

Shinca
Posted - 2005.12.23 17:50:00 - [32]
 

let's for the calculation assume you have about the same perc and will... that means that in the time you trained 632235 points from adv. charisma 4 to 5 you could have trained the same amount of points in leadership skills...

so after that training was done you benefit 1 point per minute whaile training leadership skills...
632235 minutes / 60 / 24 = 439 days

that means that it would take that long of training skills with char as primary and will as secondary to get even...

for me it would take some 242 days to get all the leadership skills to 5 so atm there are not enough skills in leadership to justify going for advanced char 5


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.12.23 18:59:00 - [33]
 

“let's for the calculation assume you have about the same perc and will... that means that in the time you trained 632235 points from adv. charisma 4 to 5 you could have trained the same amount of points in leadership skills... “
Accept I couldn’t because back then the advanced leadership skills where not out. What happens is I train up my advanced learning skills to level 5 someone else trains up combat skills. Later on advanced leadership skills come out and new leadership based ships come out. Both me and the other person who doesn’t have advanced learning skills to level 5 train up for advanced leadership starting at the same time. Only I train up faster due to advanced leaning skills at level 5. So in practical terms advanced learning level 5 paid its self back right away not over a year.






”so after that training was done you benefit 1 point per minute whaile training leadership skills...
632235 minutes / 60 / 24 = 439 days
that means that it would take that long of training skills with char as primary and will as secondary to get even...”

So many people get too lost in the logic and math to see the practical side.
It doesn’t work like you say...well it does from a math point of view. From a practical point of view I maxed out my drone and basic leadership skills to level 5 a long time ago. So I got the advanced learning skills to level 5 as there wasn’t anything else worth training. Even though people like you said it would takes 439+ days to pay its self back. Then new drones and new leadership skills came out. More leadership skills are due soon and there are the other useful new skills like the shield and amour skills all of which I train faster then most other people.

Every time a new skill, ship or profession comes out like hacking or command ships and I train for it from day 1 I am ahead of everyone who didn’t bother to get advanced leaning skills to level 5. If you look at it like that it doesn’t take 439+ days break even. Only 1 day.

You can bet there will be more advance leadership skills and other new skills I want to train. In fact there are some on market like wingcommand that are not for sale yet.

Compare training up for a new profession with advanced Learning skills at level 5 and someone without them at level 5. Then you see the true advantage of advanced Learning level 5.

Now I do agree for some pilots it will take 439 days+ for the skills to pay them selves’ back but only if that pilot could have spent he spent on learning, advanced learning skills on those other base skills.

Namarus
Gallente
Posted - 2005.12.23 19:53:00 - [34]
 

One thing I think you have neglected to consider in your calculations is those people who already have the currently learning skills at 5, would automatically have a significant advantage over those people who do not have those exisiting learning skills at 5.

There was the same arguement when I first started which was that it was not worth training learning skills up to level 5, and that level 4 was quite enough. Then when the new learning skills came in, there was a mad rush of people maxing their learning skills out in order to learn the new attribute boosting skills.

I predict that the same thing will happen again if elite learning skills are brought out.

Just for the record, I did max out my learning skills right at the start, and benefited from them, until the advanced learning skills came out, and I rightly maxed those out. If and when elite learning skills are put out, I will be in an ideal position to get those skills and immediately plug them in.

If Eve doesn't last long enough for me to get my payback then I honestly don't care. Although so far I'm that much nearer to the break even point.

Tony Fats
Posted - 2005.12.23 22:51:00 - [35]
 

You don't need to do the math to understand the proper place and time for adv and elite learning skills.

The time to train learning skills to level 5 is when you have pretty much everything you want in your chosen specialty, you get your advanced and elite skills in preparation for the next batch of skills that come out.

In fact thats not only rule of thumb for learning skills but every other skill too.

You would be stupid to get gunnery to level 5 if you have shield operation book sitting in your hangar waiting. One takes a week, the other takes 5 minutes for immediate benefit.

Its the same with all the skills.

I think of level 4 as the ceiling for all my skills, only taking something to level 5 when everything I want is at level 4, because level 4 of anything takes %15 of the time it takes to get something to level 5.

So the optimal way to train is :

Basic learning skills to 4
Working skills (stuff that makes you money and have fun) to 4
Adv learning to 4
Working skills to 5
Adv learning to 5 in anticipation of whatever comes next

Doesn't matter if it takes 5 years to recoup the training time, the point of getting adv learning to level 5 is to be able to shred through new skills as they come out, not to sacrifice training time in stuff you can use right now for benefit 5 years from now.

Deileon
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.12.23 23:14:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
I got the advanced learning skills to level 5 as there wasn’t anything else worth training.


If you REALLY had nothing better to train, then it's fine. But I don't think too many people fall into that category, only old veterans or hardcore specializers. For me and most I play with, even with 22M+ SP and counting, there are still more than enough skills to take up all my training time.

Originally by: Pottsey
Every time a new skill, ship or profession comes out like hacking or command ships and I train for it from day 1 I am ahead of everyone who didn’t bother to get advanced leaning skills to level 5.


Yeah, but it's only 5% faster. So personally I'm not losing sleep over it, considering the disadvantage.

Epistax
Posted - 2005.12.23 23:41:00 - [37]
 

I couldn't tell exactly what was shown, but what I would want to know is the time to break even with going from Advanced 4 to Elite 3 and 4. To me, this is separate from the learning skill. (keep it at regular 4) That being the case, I'd like to know the break even for going from advanced 4 regular learning 4 to advanced 4 advanced learning 3 and 4. I think those are the most important numbers.

If that's what was given... oops.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.12.24 00:39:00 - [38]
 

” If you REALLY had nothing better to train, then it's fine. But I don't think too many people fall into that category, only old veterans or hardcore specializers..”
I guess it depends on your job a lot of none combat people do max out there profession and run out of things worth while to train. It takes roughly 14million skillpoints to max out the 4 main professions I do. I have 31 million skillpoints and I am not an old veteran. So as you can see I ran out of useful things to train a long time ago. Well until RMR hit now I have stuff to do again.

A lot of the none combat people are the people who train up advanced learning to level 5 while waiting for a new profession to come out. The choice was a lot easier in the past and it made sense to train advanced learning. It’s a harder choice for new pilots as they have more options.

Shinca
Posted - 2005.12.24 00:54:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

Every time a new skill, ship or profession comes out like hacking or command ships and I train for it from day 1 I am ahead of everyone who didn’t bother to get advanced leaning skills to level 5. If you look at it like that it doesn’t take 439+ days break even. Only 1 day.


aha, I see what you mean... and that is correct, if you and someone that didn't bother training for that last point start training at the same time, you will advance faster than he... unless of course he had better starting attributes and/or can afford better implants

personaly I look more at where I will be after x months if I do something or don't do it... don't much care how I compare to anyone else (if I would care I would probably cry since I had perc 5 and will 6 at start Laughing )

Deileon
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.12.24 02:26:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Deileon on 24/12/2005 19:15:50
Crap. Realized I completely screwed the calcs. Must be slipping. Sorry about that. Currently writing a program to make things faster (yes this is how I spend Christmas Eve...)

Femintaki
Gallente
Pan-Galactic Production And Logistics
Posted - 2005.12.24 11:22:00 - [41]
 

Maxed out learning skills and proud of it - Cool

Thanks for another informative thread to everyone within the debate - very good!

Hiccup
Novus Nationis
Stain- Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.25 00:42:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Hiccup on 25/12/2005 00:44:09
First off, thanks for the math.

Secondly, the bonus for advanced learning alone problably isn't worth it for me as a 0.0 player since it takes roughly 2 minutes to find a rat and make a mil...so I can perpetually have +1 implants on.

This means that the learning benefit is less than 5% because I usually have that implant in.

Clone jumping means that people can jump back in to their +4 implants if they can afford the jump every time they log off. This is far less than 5% and you only loose time while you're actually on.

However if elite skills were introduced I'd problably train adv to V and the elites to 3/4 until something that made them feasibly worth it came along.

IMO they should stop making us learn faster and start putting learning to use at level V. Certain skills or modules you can only use / maintain if you are smart enough. This helps create more specialization and divirsity in the playing field.

Lastly I just wanted to say...I would hate to be a pvper with so many skill points. I'd stop using that character. High SP charaters are only really good on indy characters because once you get to a certain level at flying a particular ship you are on the level with many other people.

People who specialized more selectively and then ran up another character on the account to specialize in something else have less to loose on that same even playing field.

Edit:
Pottsey is right to an extent. You really have to look at Eve in the long run and realize it's an evolving game. For the selective specialist he's totally right. It's not my style though so it's merely a question of game play perspective to say that he's wrong.

Clone Jumps really reduce the effectiveness of this though!

Namarus
Gallente
Posted - 2005.12.25 17:50:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Hiccup

Clone jumping means that people can jump back in to their +4 implants if they can afford the jump every time they log off. This is far less than 5% and you only loose time while you're actually on.



Just thought I'd point out, you can only make 1 clone jump a day, so you couldn't really do that.

Aseoph
Posted - 2006.02.01 16:00:00 - [44]
 

The time spent to train these skills up to lvl 5:

5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds.[/b]



The money spent to get these skills up while doing nothing else in the game:

$1,316.70

Telschak
Gallente
Posted - 2006.02.01 16:52:00 - [45]
 

dudes afik 30 is the max points any attriubte can have....or at least it was along time ago.....when i read about itConfused

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2006.02.02 00:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Aseoph
The time spent to train these skills up to lvl 5:

5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds.[/b]



The money spent to get these skills up while doing nothing else in the game:

$1,316.70

You are WAY off. Rolling Eyes

Jezut
Posted - 2006.02.02 15:27:00 - [47]
 

way off? I'm not talking ISK here, I'm talking USD. think about it... 19.99 a month, for 66 months... multiply those those and you get it.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2006.02.02 16:17:00 - [48]
 

What is the breakeven?

The breakeven with Advanced lvl5 is 20mil sp's per attribute. What is it with Elite? 100mil sp's?

Aeron Ralth
Posted - 2006.02.02 17:50:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jezut
way off? I'm not talking ISK here, I'm talking USD. think about it... 19.99 a month, for 66 months... multiply those those and you get it.


It would not take nearly that much time to max out these proposed skills. Perhaps to break even -- even that I doubt, but I don't have the skill or inclination to learn the sp/s voodoo -- but to say 5 years to learn a handful of millions-SP skill is hyperbole to the point of losing your point.

Pure USD wasted would probably be somewhere closer to $100, and this is ignoring that you can always be doing something while training a skill.

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2006.02.03 01:59:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Aeron Ralth
Originally by: Jezut
way off? I'm not talking ISK here, I'm talking USD. think about it... 19.99 a month, for 66 months... multiply those those and you get it.


It would not take nearly that much time to max out these proposed skills. Perhaps to break even -- even that I doubt, but I don't have the skill or inclination to learn the sp/s voodoo -- but to say 5 years to learn a handful of millions-SP skill is hyperbole to the point of losing your point.

Pure USD wasted would probably be somewhere closer to $100, and this is ignoring that you can always be doing something while training a skill.
^^ What he said. It only takes about 4 months to max out all 11 learning skills, so closer to $60.

SUPER FREAK
Posted - 2006.02.03 08:24:00 - [51]
 

Nice post tripoli,

Like the one for advanced skills, they are released about 1.5 years ago.
Maybe longer i don't kepp up with all the skillrelease datesWink. But i trained
them all to level 5 on all my accounts and i'm very pleased about it. For those
who have't trained them i'm running upRazz and i will pass them in 1.5 year's
and then i will be heading (even better). So IF elite skills are released i will
train them in an instant, no doubt!

I have an average of 2200SP/Hr and before it was something about 1700/1800 so every hour i win 400SP for those who have't trained any of the advanced skills.

I like to say:
release them
train them

Greets and happy EvE

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2006.02.03 08:58:00 - [52]
 

For PvP person raising Perc and Int and perhaps Willp to adv lvl5 can be justified but other than that, both of my accounts have adv's level 4 and I couldn't bother with lvl5 of 'em, even with elite skills.

What I do want is Advanced Learning -skill itself.

Kronius Migranus
Gallente
Duragon Pioneer Group
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.02.03 18:39:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds.[/b]


Happy now? Wink


Great post Tripoli. Still, I think I'll stick with Elite's to level 4 Smile

Thanks
Alan

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.02.05 09:02:00 - [54]
 

Actually, I have had several spans of time where I didn't have anything that took long enough to train that it wouldn't have popped long before I was able to change skills, or I was disinterested enough that I didn't feel like training anything that required attention more than once a week or two. As such, taking the learning skills to lvl 5 was and excellent alternative.

If I do it right, I can train a mess of those lvl 5 slogs while I'm not playing, and have a big batch of 1-3 hour skills waiting for when I'm active again.

Harry Voyager

Diune
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2006.02.15 00:50:00 - [55]
 

i have just started playing, im just courious what attribute is better to have bigger in basic to maximize learning skills int or mem?

Sybylle
Amarr
ICE is Coming to EVE
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.02.15 07:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Diune
i have just started playing, im just courious what attribute is better to have bigger in basic to maximize learning skills int or mem?


Both are important...
Check the sticky in this forum regarding skills (click me)

Lucien Ventris
Posted - 2006.02.15 16:10:00 - [57]
 

I beginning to wonder if ccp ever think about new players. To know that it would take almost a year if not years to get learningskills is just plain stupid. For me i think they should reaprouch this in another way. Eveyone hate absolutly hate the learning training. For me kinda new to eve this is one of the things i least like of the eve universe. Its so molded for people who will live in this universe and spend years of their real lifes waiting for a skill to train.

Where do the ydraw the line, will their come a day when you have to wait 300+ days for a skil lto finnish, i think the game design is so flawed.

That said i enjoy the universe and the surroundings and the gameplay. But to award people for just suffering and dragging out the whoel process is just painfull.

I think the ccp staff is suffering from the "kill your darlings complex" they just keep raising the time on mega advanced skills and money involved making it slimmer and slimmer for even advanced players to get a broad skillbase. What use is skills that need years and years to pay off?? most probably in a couple of years they would have to move on with other games. And most of the skills they done wouldn't begin to payoff anyhow.

Honestly, i know the tactic of keeping people involved and keeping them playing (and paying) is a lure, and that ccp pulls this off better then most in this appartment due to the ever expanding world. BUT why make the world more and more LESS fun. To me as a newbie i would like to see a way to move up in the world. But there is no such way in eve. Newbie players will have no chance of cloucing the gap with people who started to play earlyer.

I HOPE they fix so that the ELITE learningskills dont take forever to learn! why would somone even contenplaiting of getting them when they take 100D+ each!

whatever i just get more and more annoyed at ccp for making such a perfect creation and just killing it. make it less painfull to play eve, not more painfull.

Crying or Very sadEvil or Very Mad

Malena
Shiva
Posted - 2006.02.15 17:20:00 - [58]
 

For god's sake don't turn this into a "newbie can't catch up" whine.

The "grind" in EVE is waiting in real time-including being at work or away from the computer-the grind in nearly every other MMO is hacking away at the same monsters over and over again until you can find slightly bigger monsters, and do it all over again.

The other thing you seem to forget is that skillpoints don't make for the win...USE of those skillpoints does. Having a high skillpoint total definitely makes winning at PvP and NPC fighting easier, but it is the experience that really counts.

Back to the topic at hand:

I too have all my learning skills maxxed and love it...whether or not they have "paid for themselves" is irrelevant to me. I just know that when I am training skills, I have every reasonable reduction in time being applied...IE maxxed skills and some implants-ones that aren't uber expensive. That alone makes it worthwhile, because I don't sit at work wondering how much faster I could be getting this skill or that skill done so that I can fly this ship, or shoot that gun, or make that missile hit harder. I know that 36 days for battleship 5 is the best I can hope for without spending billions on better implants.

Are learning skills are boring, chucking, tear your hair out grind? Yes, absolutely. But so is every other skill, it is just that you get more excited about them being finished because the payoff is immediate, so it doesn't seem so bad to have spent the time on them. ALL the skills require time to train, not just learning skills. So to tell everyone the learning skills are a waste of time is kind of like telling a gallente hauler that it really isn't worth training navigation 4 or 5, that iteron mark V will go plenty fast without it. Well yea, it will, but why wouldn't I want it to go faster?

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2006.02.16 02:26:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Malena
I too have all my learning skills maxxed and love it...whether or not they have "paid for themselves" is irrelevant to me. I just know that when I am training skills, I have every reasonable reduction in time being applied...IE maxxed skills and some implants-ones that aren't uber expensive. That alone makes it worthwhile...
Word. Cool

Although the vast majority of people would agree that training the learning skills, expecially maxing them out, is utterly painful, when I did it, it was the most fun I've ever had training skills. To each their own. Wink

I don't think anyone needs to ask if I'd like them to release the Elite Learning Skills or not.

Endevite
Cirrius Technologies
O X I D E
Posted - 2006.02.16 06:21:00 - [60]
 

Was the order of skills trained taken into consideration?
As if you work on mem first then int, it as you go reduces over all learning skills training time.

By doing such you can reduce the estimated time for each skill, what may be the time for rank5 lvl4 perc wont be the same if you have rank5 lvl4 mem trained, as the learning skills have mem,int as training time modifiers, aswell as the learning skill having an effect.

Just curious if you took such into consideration, as even this character, 31 days old will only take 2 more weeks to have all the rank3 adv's up to lvl4 based on the order of training.


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