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blankseplocked Timeout CCP, Eve needs a lil bit of TLC
 
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McBane
Gallente
AFK Initiative
Posted - 2005.09.10 23:30:00 - [1]
 

Dear CCP,

Eve is a great game and you have done an excellent job in developing it and keeping us informed and updated. Your service is second to none and for that you deserve a big pat on the back.

But I really think it is time to call time out for a bit and concentrate on bug fixing and sorting out your test procedures prior to release.

There are bugs and annoyances within the game that have been in for in some cases years. The basic user interface is very flaky when it comes to dragging, selecting multiple objects and copy and pasting and all the basic stuff like that.

And each patch seems to bring in a host of new bugs, and itís this I really struggle to understand (and I am a developer). How can you break so many things that have been working fine, and pass them through the testing phase to release without noticing - when these bugs are so obvious we can spot them within minutes of logging in?

Since logging into the Eve since the last patch, within minutes I had discovered several new bugs Iíd not had beforeÖ
I move some items from one folder to another Ė it lags like hell and gets in a mess resulting in a object icon displayed afloat on screen even after I undock and am flying around in space and after jumps.
I do a missionÖ the mission details now nicely placed in a folder, but this doesnít workÖ I expand it and the expanded contents appear further down below some other folders and nothing can be selected.
I make it out into battle, still laggy, and now my targets donít show the locking symbol in the overview so I donít know which Iím locking and which Iím not.
My drones are missing status information Ė and the return and scoop always leaves 2 or 3 drones that just do not scoop and have to be collected manually.

I then go to trade and discover some old bugs are still thereÖthe wallet journal is still missing the entries that should appear between the bottom of page 1 and the top of page 2. And so on..

This all in about 10 minutes of play. How on earth is this missed in testing?

Please, please, please, take some time out, forget new content for a while and sort out the user interface so itís slick, smooth and easy to use. Inject a bit of user friendlness Ė just simply stuff like buy order screens remembering the options you used last time and a way of selecting or bringing to the front hidden windows Ė that kinda stuff, nothing flash.
Fix the age old bugs and review your testing procedures so you donít break almost as much content as you add each patch day.

I would gladly accept no new content for the next 6 months in favour of a less bug riddled and altogether smoother Eve. Patch days should be something to look forward to, not dread!

I know this sounds like a bit of a moan Ė and I guess it is, but its because itís a great game and a game I love and the game needs a lil bit of TLC. They are not major faults, but the game would be some much nicer to play if a lil bit more attention was paid to bugs, and the user interface/friendlyness.

Thanks, McB

jbob2000
Gallente
Degenerate...
Posted - 2005.09.11 01:06:00 - [2]
 

Agreed

WizEye
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.09.11 01:19:00 - [3]
 

true, no new content or balacing, just REAL debugging.

Orius Nix
Posted - 2005.09.11 01:30:00 - [4]
 

I wish ccp would do that. they could also use that time to add missing features from cosmo and other patches's

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.09.11 02:43:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: WizEye
true, no new content or balacing, just REAL debugging.


You sir are an idiot. The devs have stated dozens of times that the content and bug fixing teams are completely separate. And no they can't just throw more people at the job, programming doesn't work that way. After a small number of people it actually takes longer to fix bugs with every new person you add.

WizEye
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.09.11 02:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: WizEye on 11/09/2005 02:45:00
Sometimes I fail to understand how their patching plans work.

Example: community's been asking for a "return to drone bay" command for a long time, and CCP tried to satisfy them with the latest patch. It was very nice of them.

Problem: the new feature was 100% not working. If you're lucky 1/2 of the drones come into drone bay, but in the average case, at max 1-2 drones hop in while the other 13 stay outside..

Question: why why why why and again why did they release a feature that was clearly not even tested? The patch was delayed by 2 weeks and still, features like the drone one were clearly still in the "work in progress" phase. What's the point of inserting a feature that doesn't work? It's not that the community gets happier by being mocked this way. Why can't you just delay the insertion of the feature until it's really working, on theoretically working? We're pretty good at waiting, it took more than a year for some critical features to be implemented and we've been waiting all this time. Instead of inserting features that don't work, delay them until they've been tested considerably and they're secure bug-wise.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I know I'm not in the position to teach you how to develop software and the issue is more complicated than it seems, but we're here trying to help you focus on what's really important to us, YOUR users and paying clients.

WizEye
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.09.11 02:52:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: WizEye
true, no new content or balacing, just REAL debugging.


You sir are an idiot. The devs have stated dozens of times that the content and bug fixing teams are completely separate. And no they can't just throw more people at the job, programming doesn't work that way. After a small number of people it actually takes longer to fix bugs with every new person you add.


You sir are a coprophage. I realize that they can't just fire the development team because there are still hundreds of bugs out there that need patching. What I'm saying is that there is actually no need for new features at the moment. I know those people need a job, but right now the absolute priority should go to bugs, not to additions that nobody cares about.

McBane
Gallente
AFK Initiative
Posted - 2005.09.11 11:55:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: theRaptor
You sir are an idiot. The devs have stated dozens of times that the content and bug fixing teams are completely separate. And no they can't just throw more people at the job, programming doesn't work that way. After a small number of people it actually takes longer to fix bugs with every new person you add.

Where have the devs stated this?

As a developer myself I find it hard to believe that they have a separate bug fixing team! That would be a really silly approach since a. it takes away incentive to the development team to do a proper job and b. the best person to fix a bug is the developer responsible for that piece of code.
If it were true, I guess it would explain why Eve is so bug riddled and the bugs take such a long time to get fixed, but I just canít believe that is so.
Everything youíve stated just doesnít ring true to me, at least no development team Iíve ever been in.

p.s. Your opening sentence was a bit immature donít you think?

Happysin
Ars ex Discordia
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.11 15:33:00 - [9]
 

I have to agree with McBane. I have been professional QA, and now handle some project management, and the regressions really surprise me. I'm relatively new to the game, but things like "Pet Planets" coming back strikes me as odd.

Considering how much live data is going on, I'm sure the versioning/code check out system is incredibly complex, but basic regression testing is not only QA's job, but the dev who 'owns' that code's job as well.

I love the game, and I plan to keep playing, but some cleanup would certianly not go amiss.

Inasnum
Posted - 2005.09.11 16:44:00 - [10]
 

Totally agree, i'd rather the bugs were fixed rather than anything new!

Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
Posted - 2005.09.11 21:32:00 - [11]
 

The programmers are separate from the content team. I.e. both teams can still work at the same time and get things done.

JoeSomebody
No Trademark
Notoriety Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.12 00:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: WizEye
true, no new content or balacing, just REAL debugging.


You sir are an idiot. The devs have stated dozens of times that the content and bug fixing teams are completely separate. And no they can't just throw more people at the job, programming doesn't work that way. After a small number of people it actually takes longer to fix bugs with every new person you add.
Unless you create incredibly complex and flexible framework for content developers that is simply not possible. You sir, lack understanding of difference between content and engine, and tend to express it in very immature way.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.09.12 00:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: WizEye
Question: why why why why and again why did they release a feature that was clearly not even tested? The patch was delayed by 2 weeks and still, features like the drone one were clearly still in the "work in progress" phase. What's the point of inserting a feature that doesn't work? It's not that the community gets happier by being mocked this way. Why can't you just delay the insertion of the feature until it's really working, on theoretically working? We're pretty good at waiting, it took more than a year for some critical features to be implemented and we've been waiting all this time. Instead of inserting features that don't work, delay them until they've been tested considerably and they're secure bug-wise.


No EVE players aren't good at waiting. So CCP just throw half assed features at us to shut the whiners up. CCP also need to keep adding new features to stop people getting bored and cancelling subs. They are running a business not trying to make the best game ever.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.09.12 00:58:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: McBane
As a developer myself I find it hard to believe that they have a separate bug fixing team! That would be a really silly approach since a. it takes away incentive to the development team to do a proper job and b. the best person to fix a bug is the developer responsible for that piece of code.
If it were true, I guess it would explain why Eve is so bug riddled and the bugs take such a long time to get fixed, but I just canít believe that is so.
Everything youíve stated just doesnít ring true to me, at least no development team Iíve ever been in.


And the last time you developed a MMOG was?

The programmers are one team. But there is a separate content team that at most do some light scripting (For missions etc). Most new features require very little programming (ships, mods and missions), and we have had several patches recently that had no feature coding done at all. The content team did it all, and the programmers did some bug fixes that happend to be in the same patch.

So stopping the content team from adding new features does jack all for bug fixing. And CCP has already largely put a halt to any new feature that requires a large amount of coding precisely to give the programmers more time to fix bugs. There have been *dev blogs* on the subject, so how people can be completely ignorant of it is mind boggling.

Yes I will agree that CCP have major problems with regression testing and QA, but that can not be fixed by forcing the content team to do bug testing. And if you know anything about programming you know that the content team can work on new features and balance without affecting the code at all (Ship balancing, more missions, POS).

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.09.12 01:59:00 - [15]
 

i disagree bring on as many new features that have lots of bugs as u can WOW has been a massive success in this way and yet dispite the complaints and hopeless programming on WOW they are still clear leaders - bugs can always be fixed and most of the time dont distract from gameplay and therefore unimportant versus new content

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.09.12 02:10:00 - [16]
 

Well I have led software shops/companies. Its not so much seperating things into "here, you code new things" and "here, you fix broke things". Its more dividing planning and execution. They seem to have done this, but I sense a certain ammount of bandwidth issues around the edges.

That means a project manager willing to buck both the developers and management is #1 priority. I think Oveur is our man there, and it comes down to ensuring dude has the ammount of folks he needs, the elbow room from whoever has the stock, and the lets rock from the coders. In the comments from devs I think that a coupla the coders own a big part of the stock, and I have so been there. If that is the case, they gotta be willing to change...or sell and move on if the project gets tiresome.


 

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